"Forgot" to re-set hour meter after rebuild?

[FlyWright]

I've never heard of a resettable hourmeter. I grew up with Hobbs meters in small planes but none were resettable. Neither are mine on the boat. AFAIK, I have 4000 original hours. The only way I know to 'reset' the hourmeter is to replace it.

Have others seen 'resettable hourmeters" on boats?

 

[Barking Sands]

The invoice from the rebuilder I might believe. Reset hour meters without the rebuild invoice I would NOT accept.

This.
It is my opinion the proper way to document these items is through actual documentation in a log book. Leave the hour meters in place. There is more to a drive system than the engines. In other words...you get the boat new and complete. Hours begin to climb. Say you get to 2000 hours and the port transmission takes a dump and you have it rebuilt. You then get all invoices and document that the port transmission was replaced at 2000 hrs Hobbs time.
Then at 5000 hours the starboard engine requires overhaul. Gather invoices and documentation for ALL items overhauled and make a log entry for each major component. For instance if the injector pump was done at this time...note it. If the complete long block was done and cylinder head overhauled as well, note it.
The maintenance should be tracked in a logbook with detailed entries and reference the Hobbs time.
If a stuffing box is rebuilt..log it with Hobbs time.
If a cutlass bearing is swapped out...log it with Hobbs time.
If injector #3 and #6 is changed...log it with Hobbs time.
If an alternator is changed...log it with Hobbs time.
If just a cylinder head is redone...log it with Hobbs time.
Just be sure to save invoices. A good invoice is the verifiable proof of the log entry.
Keep those Hobbs meters rolling.
Even for complete engine overhaul...keep the Hobbs meters rolling.
Doing it this way you will be able to track time on all major and even some minor drive line components.

IMO the only time you change a Hobbs meter is when they break...and they do break. In that instance you put a new 0 time Hobbs meter in and then you placard the new meter " Add 5045.6 hours" note the Hobbs meter change in the log book and then continue tracking.

There are a whole host of reasons to do it this way.

So as Rgano stated...the documentation is MUCH better proof than someone swapping in a new Hobbs.

 

[markpierce]

Simple. What do the overhaul receipts show?

 

[FF]

Many hour meters do not operate by counting the engine hours as the engine is run.


Instead when the engine is operating the meter winds a mechanical clock that gives the hour readout , every minuet or two. So hooking one up in reverse will not take time off the reading.

 

[Bobby Lex]

Hi Bobby Lex. You're the original poster of this thread. Hope you've gotten the info needed to help you make your next move on this boat. Any further documentation from the seller on the engine work, hours, etc?

You know that saying "You don't know what you don't know"? That's what I am realizing after reading all the informative comments on this thread! I am a lifelong sailor where engines are referred to as "auxiliary" -- almost an afterthought, really. I have an awful lot to learn about trawler/motor yacht engines and systems before I pull the trigger.

You guys on the Trawler Forums are amazingly knowledgeable. Thanks for all the good info and suggestions.

 

[markic]

you need proof

As a mechanical engineer with lots of diesel experience who has migrated to the medical device industry 20 years ago, If its not written down with details and proof like receipts, photo's, oil analysis etc it is treated by myself and auditors from the FDA, TGA and TUV like it never happened.

How many people do you know who would spend $40K which would only add resale value etc and not have one piece of proof or paper to back it up let alone the sales persons comment, he'd be the guy chasing the sales commission right???????

Sounds more than suspect to me regardless of how well the engines run.

I'd want proof or a price adjustment to cover future rebuilds

 

[OldDan1943]

I've never heard of a resettable hourmeter. I grew up with Hobbs meters in small planes but none were resettable. Neither are mine on the boat. AFAIK, I have 4000 original hours. The only way I know to 'reset' the hourmeter is to replace it.

Have others seen 'resettable hourmeters" on boats?

I know it is a federal offense to reset the odometer on a car. I just assumed it was against the law to reset the hour meter too.
I do believe if the engine hour meter is replaced, it should be noted or the old meter retained as proof.

 

[C lectric]

I know it is a federal offense to reset the odometer on a car. I just assumed it was against the law to reset the hour meter too.
I do believe if the engine hour meter is replaced, it should be noted or the old meter retained as proof.

Hour meters in boat are NOT the law, at least not here. My previous boat didn't have them, I installed them.

What applies to cars in this case does not apply to boats. With the electronification of engines that may be changing but I do not believe hour meters in boats are in the same law break arena as odometers in cars.

 

[catalinajack]

I replaced the old Motorola tachometer with VDO programmables. I placed a label on the new units with the hours from the old. I took photos of the old units which have since been sold to another boater.

This.
It is my opinion the proper way to document these items is through actual documentation in a log book. Leave the hour meters in place. There is more to a drive system than the engines. In other words...you get the boat new and complete. Hours begin to climb. Say you get to 2000 hours and the port transmission takes a dump and you have it rebuilt. You then get all invoices and document that the port transmission was replaced at 2000 hrs Hobbs time.
Then at 5000 hours the starboard engine requires overhaul. Gather invoices and documentation for ALL items overhauled and make a log entry for each major component. For instance if the injector pump was done at this time...note it. If the complete long block was done and cylinder head overhauled as well, note it.
The maintenance should be tracked in a logbook with detailed entries and reference the Hobbs time.
If a stuffing box is rebuilt..log it with Hobbs time.
If a cutlass bearing is swapped out...log it with Hobbs time.
If injector #3 and #6 is changed...log it with Hobbs time.
If an alternator is changed...log it with Hobbs time.
If just a cylinder head is redone...log it with Hobbs time.
Just be sure to save invoices. A good invoice is the verifiable proof of the log entry.
Keep those Hobbs meters rolling.
Even for complete engine overhaul...keep the Hobbs meters rolling.
Doing it this way you will be able to track time on all major and even some minor drive line components.

IMO the only time you change a Hobbs meter is when they break...and they do break. In that instance you put a new 0 time Hobbs meter in and then you placard the new meter " Add 5045.6 hours" note the Hobbs meter change in the log book and then continue tracking.

There are a whole host of reasons to do it this way.

So as Rgano stated...the documentation is MUCH better proof than someone swapping in a new Hobbs.

 

[Barking Sands]

Good deal Catalinajack. The reason I stated my opinion the way I did is because this method is taken from Aircraft. I have been working aircraft for 35 years and have seen some SAD stories....lol. In the aircraft world when an aircraft is bought/sold the buyer typically pays us for a "logbook research" as part of the pre-purchase inspection...of which I have done a few. We examine all aircraft records against the OEM/FAA approved maintenance schedule for the life of the aircraft. The records are kept in logbooks and are documented by Hobbs/flight time, Landings or calendar days since these are the parameters that count. Then there are "life limited components" that have a prescribed service life in either Hobbs/flight hours, landing cycles (such as landing gear components) or calendar days.

An example might be Flap drive motor has a 2000 hour service life until mandatory overhaul. Starter/generator might have 600 hour overhaul. Some items have a hard life limit where it just gets tossed and replaced when it reaches the hour limit.

We had a buyer/seller situation where the seller was a foreign operator and was selling cheap. The buyer mandated that the prepurchase inspection and logbook research be done by us (OEM). During logbook research it was found that nearly every life limited component that should have been changes had no evidence in the logbook. As a result a squawk was added to the work order for each and every component that was overdue. At that point the seller was SUNK. It was not as if he could back out of the deal and fly away. He was grounded until those issues were dealt with. Yes he could have backed out of the deal, but he would still be grounded with his aircraft already torn apart and was now in an unairworthy condition. The final outcome was the seller had to pay approximately $250K to deal with these overdue components discovered during logbook research (not including our labor). But the buyer went through with the purchase. Of course he would, he had an aircraft that now had about half the life limited components replaced with 0 time parts plus the buyer/seller shared the cost of our inspections. Probably another $150k.

Boat logs dont need to be quite that airtight. But with a little forethought you can have logbooks/receipts/invoices that drastically add to the boats value and sell-ability. Most boats with any age are really a great mystery. It doesn't have to be that way. And the steps you took will pay dividends at some point in the future.

 

[tiltrider1]

With aircraft, it’s the log book that tracks hours. Not the Hobbs meter. We had a fleet of 50 helicopters. Hobbs failed occasionally and we replaced them. We had one helicopter with 14,000 hours on it that had been through 3 Hobbs meters.

With boats the hour meter is only a reference that needs to be backed up with documentation. The more documentation the more value you can put into the representation. No one is required to document and no one is required to believe the hour meter. After all, you could replace the meter any time you choose.

 

[Barking Sands]

Tiltrider1..you have to be careful tracking by logboks alone. It is legal to do that but by far most for hire companies track by hobbs. The operator that tracks by flight log IMO is making a mistake because it opens them up to future disagreements...especially if a hobbs is installed.

Case in point. It wasnt one month ago that a broker brought us a prebuy and the buyer ordered a logbook research. This particular aircraft was operated in Europe and the operator prefered to track via flight log. He made a statement that they didnt care about Hobbs. One of the first things noted was a large disagreement in hours between the original Hobbs and the hours in the flight log. Had it not been a sale involved there would be no issue. But at the point of a sale many things are discovered and sticky points arise. In this case the disagreement was a 400 hour disagreement between what Hobbs showed and what the flight logs showed. No record of Hobbs changes or Hobbs issues in the Mx logs. Now guess what? Major disagreement between buyer and seller. If the Hobbs was correct then the operator was 100 hours overdue for both engine hot section inspections ($40K plus any issues found during inspection). If the logbooks were correct he still had 300 hour until hot section inspection was due. The broker actually paid us around 10 man hours at $130 an hour to go through the logbooks entry by entry to see if we could discover an error in his favor. The only errors we found were math errors by the pilots in the flight logs but they only amounted to a few hours.

Best bet for operators that want to use flight logs only is to remove the Hobbs. Some operator do. Some aircraft such as Hawkers do not have Hobbs meters and leave it only to the flight logs.

The moral of this that transfers to boats is that if you use Hobbs, document by Hobbs, document Hobbs changes properly if they are done (such as what Catalinajack did) then the story of the boat is sequential and easy to follow. The result of this is it can dramatically increase the value of your boat at selling time or make /break the purchase of your next boat.

 

[Comodave]

As far as I know there are no disclosure laws on boats. As to the hours being correct that is merely an assumption. Since hour meters are not required on boat what you see is what you get. I always take them with a huge grain of salt.

 

[tiltrider1]

Tiltrider1..you have to be careful tracking by logboks alone. It is legal to do that but by far most for hire companies track by hobbs. The operator that tracks by flight log IMO is making a mistake because it opens them up to future disagreements...especially if a hobbs is installed.

Case in point. It wasnt one month ago that a broker brought us a prebuy and the buyer ordered a logbook research. This particular aircraft was operated in Europe and the operator prefered to track via flight log. He made a statement that they didnt care about Hobbs. One of the first things noted was a large disagreement in hours between the original Hobbs and the hours in the flight log. Had it not been a sale involved there would be no issue. But at the point of a sale many things are discovered and sticky points arise. In this case the disagreement was a 400 hour disagreement between what Hobbs showed and what the flight logs showed. No record of Hobbs changes or Hobbs issues in the Mx logs. Now guess what? Major disagreement between buyer and seller. If the Hobbs was correct then the operator was 100 hours overdue for both engine hot section inspections ($40K plus any issues found during inspection). If the logbooks were correct he still had 300 hour until hot section inspection was due. The broker actually paid us around 10 man hours at $130 an hour to go through the logbooks entry by entry to see if we could discover an error in his favor. The only errors we found were math errors by the pilots in the flight logs but they only amounted to a few hours.

Best bet for operators that want to use flight logs only is to remove the Hobbs. Some operator do. Some aircraft such as Hawkers do not have Hobbs meters and leave it only to the flight logs.

The moral of this that transfers to boats is that if you use Hobbs, document by Hobbs, document Hobbs changes properly if they are done (such as what Catalinajack did) then the story of the boat is sequential and easy to follow. The result of this is it can dramatically increase the value of your boat at selling time or make /break the purchase of your next boat.

This is a boat forum so I won’t debate aircraft Hobbs vs log books. However, your point that discrepancies exist in the world of Federally Regulated aircraft were life and death maintenance is controlled by flight hours, Just goes to show how one should be very careful in trusting what an hour meter says on a boat.

I keep a log book that records maintenance preformed and fuel by both date and engine hours. More data, more likely hood that the hour’s represented are accurate.

 

[Barking Sands]

This is a boat forum so I won’t debate aircraft Hobbs vs log books. However, your point that discrepancies exist in the world of Federally Regulated aircraft were life and death maintenance is controlled by flight hours, Just goes to show how one should be very careful in trusting what an hour meter says on a boat.

I keep a log book that records maintenance preformed and fuel by both date and engine hours. More data, more likely hood that the hour’s represented are accurate.

We agree. More consistent data using various points of reference the better. Many boats are a complete mystery.

 

[Simi 60]

We got ours with a broken meter and zero records
Those that couldn't see the value or who needed bits of paper to prove something they couldn't see missed out


Builders plate on engine coincided with reconfigure of vessel from working trawler to pleasure.
PO admitted that she was to much boat for him so very little use
First valve adjustment confirmed that this was the first time anyone had been in there for a look so essentially a new motor.

End result - we got a steal