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09-08-2020, 08:46 PM
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#1
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Member
City: Loganville, GA
Vessel Name: TBD
Vessel Model: TBD
Join Date: Feb 2020
Posts: 15
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"Forgot" to re-set hour meter after rebuild?
Looking at a 60+ footer that's for sale. She has twin 12-71TDs. The hour-meters show over 5000 hours, which as I understand it puts the engines well past major overhaul time. The broker claims that she had both engines overhauled about 3 years ago, to the tune of over $40k. But somehow they "neglected" to reset the hour meters. Does his explanation make any sense? I have my doubts. What do you engine Gurus think?
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09-08-2020, 08:50 PM
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#2
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Guru
City: Rochester, NY
Vessel Name: Hour Glass
Vessel Model: Chris Craft 381 Catalina
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 7,538
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Personally I wouldn't expect the meters reset, I'd just expect documentation of how many hours they had at overhaul so I'd know how many it's been since.
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09-08-2020, 08:59 PM
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#3
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Guru
City: Bethlehem, PA
Vessel Name: Lady Kay V
Vessel Model: 1978 Hatteras 53MY
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 1,098
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On mine I was told one meter was replaced, the other was not. So I have original and rebuild hours. Kinda neat. The paperwork more than supports all this.
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09-08-2020, 09:05 PM
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#4
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TF Site Team
City: California Delta
Vessel Name: FlyWright
Vessel Model: 1977 Marshall Californian 34 LRC
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 13,728
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IMO, the logs should show actual hours and the time of significant maintenance performed...whatever that means to you.
In aviation, records reqts are much more precise.
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09-08-2020, 09:10 PM
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#5
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Guru
City: Jacksonville
Vessel Name: SONAS
Vessel Model: Grand Alaskan 53
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 7,235
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Hang on. Are these engines "well past their major overhaul" at 5000 hours?
Seems awfully low.
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09-08-2020, 09:11 PM
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#6
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Guru
City: Queensland
Vessel Model: Milkraft 60 converted timber prawn trawler
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 5,482
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby Lex
Looking at a 60+ footer that's for sale. She has twin 12-71TDs. The hour-meters show over 5000 hours, which as I understand it puts the engines well past major overhaul time.
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If that's correct that's pretty poor.
What HP?
Many different variants, higher HP ones that are driven hard that 5000 could be correct.
Well maintained low HP models should last considerably longer.
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09-08-2020, 09:18 PM
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#7
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Technical Guru
City: Wilmington, NC
Vessel Name: Louisa
Vessel Model: Custom Built 38
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 6,194
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Owner should produce invoices showing work done, by whom, and dates. From dates, can usually tell if number of hours make sense.
If they can not produce that paperwork, got to assume that they were not rebuilt.
12-71 can go well over 5000hrs if run easy. High output, run hard, maybe 2500.
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09-08-2020, 09:23 PM
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#8
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Guru
City: Looking
Vessel Name: --
Vessel Model: Between boats
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,190
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I have 4600hrs each on a pair of mini Yanmars that are still purring like kittens with only regular maintenance items.
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09-08-2020, 09:27 PM
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#9
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Guru
City: Sydney
Vessel Name: Sojourn
Vessel Model: Integrity 386
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 13,293
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ski in NC
Owner should produce invoices showing work done, by whom, and dates. From dates, can usually tell if number of hours make sense.
If they can not produce that paperwork, got to assume that they were not rebuilt.
12-71 can go well over 5000hrs if run easy. High output, run hard, maybe 2500.
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Yes, sight the bills.
Not even sure you can "wind back" the hours/Hobbs meters. Rebuild is 3 years ago, engines were failing somewhere short of 5000. But where?
Remember, 5000 hours is on everything, not just engines.
__________________
BruceK
2005 Integrity 386 "Sojourn"
Sydney Australia
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09-08-2020, 09:34 PM
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#10
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Guru
City: Seattle
Vessel Name: AZZURRA
Vessel Model: Ocean Alexander 54
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 4,281
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I’m speculating due to a lack of data. I’m going to assume a Hatteras 60’ sport fisher which could easily wear out a pair of dd12-71’s in 5,000 hours., however I would be suspicious of a complete overhaul for just $40,000. So now I’m speculating that we are talking about a 60’ semi-planning hull that after 5,000 hours of running hard got hot and did some damage. Several liners and rods were replaced and the bill came to $40,000. Major repair but not exactly a full rebuild.
Like Ski, I would like to see the engine repair paper work.
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09-08-2020, 10:02 PM
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#11
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Guru
City: Queensland
Vessel Model: Milkraft 60 converted timber prawn trawler
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 5,482
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiltrider1
I’m speculating due to a lack of data. I’m going to assume a Hatteras 60’ sport fisher which could easily wear out a pair of dd12-71’s in 5,000 hours., however I would be suspicious of a complete overhaul for just $40,000. So now I’m speculating that we are talking about a 60’ semi-planning hull that after 5,000 hours of running hard got hot and did some damage. Several liners and rods were replaced and the bill came to $40,000. Major repair but not exactly a full rebuild.
Like Ski, I would like to see the engine repair paper work.
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Saw several of this type of thing online when looking
Always avoided due to engine size 650hp x 2
Never realised they were a "hand grenade" engine.
Glad we held out for a 350hp boat with an engine type that regularly get 30,000+ hours between in frame rebuilds.
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09-08-2020, 10:16 PM
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#12
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Moderator Emeritus
City: Au Gres, MI
Vessel Name: Black Dog
Vessel Model: Formula 41PC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 21,131
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I would not be afraid of Detroits with 5000 hours that had not been run on the pins for that time. The problem is figuring out how they have been run...
__________________
Boat Nut:
If you are one there is no explanation necessary.
If you aren’t one, there is no explanation possible.
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09-09-2020, 03:45 AM
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#13
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Guru
City: Between Oregon and Alaska
Vessel Name: Charlie Harper
Vessel Model: Wheeler Shipyard 83'
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,021
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The only way to know the condition of the engines is an engine survey by a REAL Detroit Diesel marine mechanic.
$40 thousand is cheap for rebuilding 2 12v71s. I've been running 12v71s since the mid 1960s, off an on. A twin turbo engine gets between 2000 and 10,000 hours between overhauls, depending on how hard they are run and how well maintained. A natural can go decades.
Owners don't always tell brokers the whole story and some brokers choose not to tell the whole story.
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09-09-2020, 04:28 AM
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#14
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Guru
City: Cape May, NJ
Vessel Name: Irish Lady
Vessel Model: Monk 36
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,947
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You can’t “reset” Hobbs meters, you replace them with new and document that fact in the maintenance log.
__________________
Archie
Irish Lady
1984 Monk 36 Hull #46
Currently in Cape May, NJ
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09-09-2020, 08:07 AM
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#15
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Guru
City: North Carolina for now
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,348
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I'll pile on in agreeing that they need to produce comprehensive receipts, work done and itemized parts. Running and maintenance logs would tell a very important part of the tale. What horsepower are those engines? They can last for many many 1000's of hours if in the common 650HP range and run responsibly.
Absolutely get an experienced Detroit mechanic to do a complete survey. That will validate (or not) whatever is being represented. $40,000 would be in the normal price range to completely overhaul a ONE 12 cylinder Detroit. Pretty cheap price for getting an essentially brand new engine.
In the meantime, see if you can arrange to have them start the engines for you first thing in the morning when they are cold to the touch. How much smoke comes out the exhaust and for how long is pretty telling. Over on the Hatteras Owners Forum, there are a lot of knowledgeable owners of these engines, plus a sticky post by one called "30 second compression test".
__________________
George
"There's the Right Way, the Wrong Way, and what some guy says he's gotten away with"
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09-09-2020, 08:45 AM
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#16
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Guru
City: Jacksonville
Vessel Name: Alzero
Vessel Model: Hatteras 63' CPMY
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,548
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We have over 5k hrs on our 650hp 12-71s and they are still going strong. Two years ago all 24 cylinders were within specs for compression at time of purchase, they start as soon as the button is pushed with no smoking. After resealing the air box covers and replacing the front main seal on one they do not leak oil, however since we run at 1050rpm they will “slobber” a black mixture of soot and unburned fuel. This can be alleviated by coming up on plane once in a while and getting up to full temperature to burn it off. They will then make an amazing amount of smoke for a few minutes before clearing up.
Our hour meters are both inop so we now keep track of oil changes with the clocks on the flo-scans. These are nearly indestructible engines unless run at WOT for hours on end such as in a sportfisher. Remember: modern computer controlled engines need electricity to run, Detroit’s need electricity to shut down, I know which I prefer!
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09-09-2020, 09:21 AM
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#17
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Guru
City: Everett WA.
Vessel Name: Triton
Vessel Model: 48' Golden Egg Harbor
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 713
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Ask for paperwork to back it, one mans "rebuild" might be a set of gaskets and a paint job. Another might include an inframe, another might be a full removal of the block and machine work to everything. If they can not produce the paperwork I would question if it ever happened, as if your to drop 20-40k on something you keep the paperwork knowing its going to add value when its time to sell.
Now lets say the paperwork was in a car that was stolen or some other story. Find a 2-stroke guy and pay for the full engine survey. Or if the boat is in good shape and your willing to gamble.... I would not be afraid of a 12V with 5k on the clock if it did not smoke a ton when fired up, did not over heat, looked neat, and worked well under full load.
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09-09-2020, 10:30 AM
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#18
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TF Site Team
City: Saltspring Island
Vessel Name: Retreat
Vessel Model: C&L 44
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,656
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What kind of hour meters? I have Hobbs, permanently reading ~1500 hours. That is the no of hours between buying the boat and re-powering. On buying the boat one tach hour meter read ~3000, the other, way less, but not functional, so I added the Hobbs pair, external to the tachs.
I also have the hour meters in the tachometers that came with the new engines (the old ones went out with the old engines). When I re-Powered, the new engines had ~1500 hours, close to the same on both. I didn't get replacement tachs for the flybridge right away, as I had to hunt for a pair of used to avoid the price of new. Those had far different readings, though both less than 1500. So now I have 6 hour meters. When I sell this boat, I doubt any broker will get the whole story, as I expect her/his eyes would glaze over long before the full explanation was done. Any purchaser relying on the broker will be confused, and will need to rely on the log book and an engine survey for an indication of the real age of the engines.
My log book details the true history of the engines, though I know that keeping close track of hours between major log entries is often overlooked in the heat of the purchasing moment.
__________________
Keith
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09-09-2020, 10:49 AM
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#19
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Guru
City: Southport, FL near Panama City
Vessel Name: FROLIC
Vessel Model: Mainship 30 Pilot II since 2015. GB-42 1986-2015. Former Unlimited Tonnage Master
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,977
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby Lex
Looking at a 60+ footer that's for sale. She has twin 12-71TDs. The hour-meters show over 5000 hours, which as I understand it puts the engines well past major overhaul time. The broker claims that she had both engines overhauled about 3 years ago, to the tune of over $40k. But somehow they "neglected" to reset the hour meters. Does his explanation make any sense? I have my doubts. What do you engine Gurus think?
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The invoice from the rebuilder I might believe. Reset hour meters without the rebuild invoice I would NOT accept.
__________________
Rich Gano
FROLIC (2005 MainShip 30 Pilot II)
Panama City area
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09-12-2020, 09:28 AM
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#20
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Guru
City: Gibsons, B.C., Canada
Vessel Name: Island Pride
Vessel Model: Palmer 32'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,409
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I,ll chime in too.
Different engine, single, smaller boat but on third meter,Hobbs. The meter changes are in the log book in BIG notes in the place, date, they were changed. Also on the notes section divider so easily seen.
Documentation of the rebuilds is needed, a must. There is a wide variation in opinions about what constitutes a "rebuild" and one person's rebuild is another's repair . Not the same.
A large part of the expense can be due to poor access meaning high labour charges to simply get engine access. That is NOT part of a rebuild itself so the $40k, although the job cost, does not necessarily mean the rebuild.
Get documentation. Get a known DD mechanic to look at the invoices and check the engines.
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