Ford Lehman vs Cat 3208

[Irish Rambler]

ejdakins.
You are right on the money with the Gardner's.
There is a company that specializes in Gardner's, keep an eye on this post, if I track them down I'll post it.

 

[Irish Rambler]

Here you go guys. The daddy of all diesels bar none.

www.gardnermarine.com or for NZ and Australia Diesel Engine Sales, Service, Parts & Repairs | Shaw Diesels

 

[Ejdakins]

Gardner's are i believe the nicest looking engines ever made bar none, Love to have a pair of 8LXB's to replace a pair of 12V71 DD's waiting on the lottery
Did talk to Gardner some time ago they will rebuild a pair with drives $80,000 each, in that neighbor hood.
They were real popular on the east cost Canada years past not so much now, lost there popularity when the 4 stroke arrived more horse power and Zune Zune got to go faster ,
sad end to a great engine

 

[Irish Rambler]

Beautifully hand crafted engines, absolute beauty's just the distinctive noise of their start up evokes wonderful memories.
The 8LXB though needed a modified water pump as the original was a bit too weak to service the 7&8 cylinders but that's an easy mod to make. All Gardner's are 4 stroke and they smoke a bit on start up but gently load them up to working temp they'll happily run all day every day.
My brother has a 1947 4 cylinder which is still running like a wee mouse chawing tissue paper. Simple straight forward and serviced by the book they will very nearly outlast your lifespan.

 

[FF]

"Both are good engines but I prefer inline engines because they are simpler and have fewer parts."

The key to me is not weather the configuration is inline or a V , but weather the engine is smooth.

3 cyl , or (2) 3 cyl together as a 6 cyl is easiest to be balanced , and therefore smoothest .

Noise and vibration may be fine for commercial or military use , but on a pleasure boat should be avoided when possible.

The abundance of inline 6 cyl engines makes it easy.

 

[Ski in NC]

A v8 like 3208 has good dynamic balance like a straight six, but is even smoother at idle than a six because of more firing pulses per rev.

3cyl does have a first order imbalance (waddle) that is not present in the 6 or V8. But usually not objectionable.

My gripe with the V8 in marine is having two heads, two exh manifolds and the thing is WIDE. Also the firing is not balanced from side to side so exhaust note can be noisy and if turbo'd, pulses at turbine inlet(s) are irregular.

 

[FF]

For CAT folks that are in love with the 3208 , but want a in frame rebuildable engine the CAT 1160 is the daddy of the 3208.

Many of the CAT in that size went into skool buses and waste removal trucks.

The skools were 90% funded so maint was never big in the program, a new bus could be had cheaply.

CAT changed from sleeved 1160 to the 3208 to lower the engines cost to make it more competitive in skool bus sales. Where rebuildability would never be missed.

 

[CptnPete]

I can't speak to the Lehman but I know I feel pretty manly when I fire up my Cat 3208 NA. When in the engine room I think what a machine. And when I go by a construction site I feel like one of the guys. Plus when I ride on my friend's picnic boat with a Yanmar with twice the HP in half the displacement I feel like the tortoise vs the hare...

 

[Aqualund1981]

I have the Lehmans on a 1981 Banks 42 and over 7000 Hours with no problems and no oil burn.
Narrow Lehmans leave much more room in the engine room.

 

[Capn James Brett]

Cat 3208’s need to run at a minimum 1500 rpms according to Cat. So if your goal is to go slow and save fuel you will be better off with the Lehman’s. If you want to have the option of going Seattle Friday Harbor in 3 hours or going through Deception Pass against the current then you want the Cat’s.

You will get better PNW service out of NC Machinery for the Cat’s than you will be able to get out of Lehman. NC knows how to use Kenmore to get parts flown to your boat.

Those hours are a non concern for either engine. Past maintenance will be far more important.

Agreed....I have a Defever 53 POC and have 3208's and the guys at NC are great and have been a huge help.
Just a quick note on my CAT's. I just went from Annapolis to Miami and then barged the boat to Mexico and went Ensenada to Seattle/Everett and my CAT's were great. I was terrified of something going wrong in the Pacific and they ran great and we also got excellent fuel economy. In Puget sound I run 1500 rpm and the boat purrs. I don't have any comments on the Lehman's but most love them. In Puget Sound, speed can be an asset with the current's sometimes.
Good luck on your purchase.

 

[Pack Mule]

Greetings,
Mr. 30. Yup, pretty sure. Hah! I'd rather push a Triumph than drive an MG....


Early MG...

Just for you RT . I had an old 66 Spitfire.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Atta boy Mr. PM...

 

[Tugalert]

USCG Cats

Spent 4 years regular CG and another 22 years in the CG Reserves. At USCG Station New York we had 2 41 footers with Cummins 903 and 5 32 footers with Cat NA. The Cat ran very well with many of the coxswain beat the Heck out of the engines. Later the station got 2 38 footers and had Cats 375 hp. where it was always breaking down. When the 38 footers were being built by Munson they told the CG to not use the 425 version of these engines. As far as my own boats I had a Ford Lehman 120 with a Warner 73 3-1 . My other came with a work boat that had a Ford Lehman 80 which after a few more engine hours replaced with a Ford Lehman Super 90. That engine is going strong in a small tug now owned by Massachusetts Maritime.

 

[firstbase]

Just for you RT . I had an old 66 Spitfire.

My very first car was a 1967 MGB. Loved that car but you aren't far off. If the thing heard about a puddle in the next county it required a new electric fuel pump. Located around the back wheel well. Right where you would put something that needed to stay dry. Brake master cylinders were another favorite it like to eat. Batteries? 2 6 volt and a special smaller size (to fit in the special smaller size battery space behind the passenger seat) that could not be found anywhere.

Still loved that car. RT, Pack Mule, I do forgive both of you.

 

[Slider70]

I ran a single Cat 3208 NA in my commercial troller I owned in past. I pulled the engine and had it rebuilt after having over 1200 hrs on the hour meter. The hour meter had been replaced once so I suspect the engine was well above the 1200? I also ran my freezer compressor at night off this engine at low idle. I trolled at 900 or 1100 rpm for a number of years with it. It is nonsense that you need to run this engine at high rpms. Commercial trollers all over the coast run them at low rpm. I cruised at 1500 to 1600 with excellent fuel consumption and hull speed at the 1600. I would run the rpm up at the end of the fishing day as one should do on any diesel ran as lower rpm for long periods.

On the rebuild I went with non-Cat parts. The new pistons came with an extra ring than the Cat originals.

Engine oil consumption went to almost zero. The old engine would blow lots of smoke after idling on the freezer all night or trolling for a 12 hour day. The rebuild with the extra ring in each piston was excellent with less than a minute of smoke after the same period of low rpm.

As for rebuild, if proper maintenance is done, Cat recommended a rebuild after consuming approximately 30,000 US gallons of fuel on the 3208's. It is a better identifier of potential rebuild time than the hours on the engine. I track all my fuel consumption rather than using engine hours as key to a rebuild.

The individual back in this that commented you would likely never need to rebuild the 3208NA in your life of owning the boat is probably correct? A sport boater has to do an exceptional amount of boating to come to the time of needing to rebuild a 3208NA unless a poor maintenance history.

 

[Fighterpilot]

I had a Californian 34 LRC with the 3208NA engines. Replaced the Risers which were hard to come by. Decent working room with that boat even with the V8s. Our problem was with the TX. Twin Disc 502s. A nightmare. Both failed and getting them repaired was a "goat rope". You might want to consider the TX in each boat as a thought.

 

[ghost]

1200 hours......more like 12K hours.

Actually 30K gallons of fuel /1.5 gal/hour (pretty typical for a slow cruising natural). That would be 20K hours.

This is how I run my 3208's in my 48 (roughly 44K pounds) at about 8.5 knots.

My boat is a 1980 with I'm guessing 4,500 hours. Do the math!

We really need to stop worrying about hours entirely. Even for a semi displacement at a 13 knot cruise, its just not hours that you are going to worry about.

Worry about the heat exchanger. Worry about the oil cooler. Worry about the impeller and water pump seals occasionally. Worry about the exhaust risers. Worry about the valve lash if you have not done it in years. Worry about the fuel filter. Worry about hoses and belts. Worry about engine mounts and cutless bearings.

These are the things that can sneak up on you in no more than a season or two, cost you big bills, make you question the "supportability of the engine" and none of them start flashing red lights based on the hour meter. Heck, a good quality "rebuild" (new rings, maybe pistons and bearings) might only cost you 12K per engine if everything else is up to snuff (and it should be). That's not even close to the end of the world. Let a heat exchanger go bad or an exhaust manifold and you will be in for the rebuild cost, a pair of heads AND the related HE replacement.

Honestly, hours have almost nothing to do with it. But how many guys out there change the oil regularly, but have not had the exhaust hose off to take a peek at those shower head or pulled the heat exchanger end caps to know exactly what that tube bundle looks like. How many have pulled the water pump off far enough to see if there are any grooves forming in the cover plate or behind the impeller? THESE are the things that will be most correlated to a surprise bill, not hours and I'm pretty lonely in a group discussing the pain of doing these "routine" things.

Actually around here, there is some pretty good company, but even around an active boat club, this put me in more than a few conversations with lots of crickets playing the the background.

 

[rolomart3]

I can speak to the FL 2715E which I have in my boat. IMHO the following points are sufficient reason to put this engine in the acceptable list:


1. Very low operating cost.
2. It is a naturally-aspirated robust workhorse based on a 1957 design that still widely in use and with parts that are easy to produce.
3. It does not have a single electronic device or part in it which means that once started, it can run without any kind of electric power, even with a failed alternator.

4. Ideal for a Do-It-Yourself (DIY) owner operator or for operation in remote locations.

3. Based on what I herd, that is, it has been used for 10-year-life spans before major re-haul as 24/7 (8760 hours/per year) electric-power-plant in farms, it is reasonable to expect an operating life exceeding 50,000 hours on a properly maintained engine.
5. American Diesel, the company supporting it, is local in the state of Virginia. It has an excellent staff and it was started by Bob Smith, the designer of the marinized version of the engine.
6. The engine continues to be used and I had no problem getting parts or support for injectors or injector pumps from local farm/truck- diesel-engine support centers, or preferably directly from American Diesel. (You do not have to take my word for it, just call around).

7. As a naturally-aspirated engine it does not have the high-stress high-temperature parts usually found in turbochargers.


Some watch-out points that really apply to every diesel engine:


1. You must learn to handle air in the fuel lines. It comes up when changing fuel filters. It is recommended that a vacuum gauge ($10) be installed.

2. You must learn to handle the injection pump oil replacement (typically every 100 hours but varies by pump condition). The injection pump in this engine design does not use the dirty crankcase oil to lubricate its delicate pump clockwork. IMHO this is a major feature for extending dramatically the life of the engine. Replacing its oil is typically a 7 minute job.
3. You must learn to replace the raw water impeller.
4. You should learn to replace both, primary and secondary fuel filters, and the air filter.


That is it!!!


Now check the DIY needs for the other engines you are considering. Pay attention to those pesky electronic cards costing over $500 or the special parts on turbo-chargers, or the special parts for sophisticated electronic fuel-metering at the injectors. Some of these are very hard to after-market them, so they are not readily available after 10 to 25 years.


As usual, a warning is in order: These points are In My Humble Opinion (IMHO) and Your Methods Me Vary (YMMV) (the results).

 

[rgano]

Please remember that the Cat 3208 are NOT “sleeved” cylinders. Must yank the whole motor out of the boat for a rebuild.
That said, my last boat (DeFever) had 3208 T with 5100 hours are still going very strong! All depends on how they’re cared for.

The 120 Lehman is also not a sleeved engine. I had one go down because of a poorly designed exhaust system which allowed seawater to enter the number six cylinder after shutdown. Engine was removed and bored and rebuilt with a new set of piRan deendably for the following 28 years.

If the Cat-powered trawler is a twin, what do you intend to do with all the excess power? A pair of 120 Lehmans provides all the power you can use in a 40-foot "ish" trawler.

 

[rgano]

The Lehmans require that oil in the injection pumps be changed at intervals ranging from 50 hrs to 200 hrs, depending on which manual you have and who you talk to. This means climbing around to the outboard side of the starboard engine or paying someone to do it. The 40’ OA Europa has pretty good access, I don’t know about the aft cabin.
Not all brokers know the difference between a 120 and a 135 and that year could have either, or even one of each. The 135 does not have the injector pump oil change requirement.

I installed petcocks and tubing on the drain points of my two Lehman 120s for quick and easy oil changes every 50 hours. The Simms pumps took excactly 2 cups of oil. So oil change was simply opening the petcocks to drain oil to a container; close petcocks; pour two cups oil into the pump.

 

[adornato]

i had a krogen 42 with a 120 lehman, then i bought a sabre 42 with twin cat 3126's
the costs of replacement parts with the cats was astronomical compared to the lehman.
The lehman will run probably longer than my life span at 1800 rpm but the boat speed was 7.2 knots.
Not sure what the extra 60 hp of the cat 3208 will buy you with boat speed but I am a great fan of the almost prehistoric Lehman in terms of simplicity

 

[Doug Martin]

I might as well give you my opinion as well . I spent a great number of years repairing and rebuilding of the 3208na and turbo version as a truck mechanic which at age 64 and counting i still feel i could rebuild one blindfolded . But I’m a simple guy so the Lehman would get my vote .after reading everyone’s reply i realize all the knowledge this group brings as everyone hit on all points needed . The cat isn’t sleeved and any cylinder issues its done . Stick to the very reliable low rpm Lehman as the cat does like rpm and fuel ..

 

[Cigatoo]

1959 MGA (If I ever own another MG it will be an “A”)
1966 MGB (can’t count the number of flat tires with those wire wheels)
1973 MGBGT (Great car)
1974 ? Triumph TR7 (junk!!! Why did I trade the BGT for this????)
1980 MGB (Brand new then totaled)
1980 MGB (Lets try this again
Bought a 2nd Brand new)

After all of the money pissed away on English cars boating was a natural progression.

 

[Tugalert]

MGC? AH Healy? Bug Eye? Had a 1956 M.G.A. and 1959 M.G.A. . 1962 Sprint. All cost me lots in repairs. After the British JUNK I get a VW Bug.

 

[mlaloli]

Gday Portage_Bay.

I don't have experience with the CATS but love our 2 Lehmans..

In a nutshell - the good;
Support from Amercian Diesel is fantastic
Parts are relatively cheap. A rebuild cost us about 3.5k in Australia.
They are so simple. I'm not a mechanic but have been able to to do a lot of work myself and can easily perform the general servicing and fault finding.
Access around the Lehmans is usually pretty good.
If we need support we go to Tractor mechanics and they enjoy working on the boat!

The bad -
They are old engines and we are very gentle with ours..
Marine diesel mechanics these days dont like to touch them.. None of our local providers are experienced with the older engines and have wasted a lot of our time..
Because we source parts from Amercian Diesel, its not as convenient that from a local supplier.

good luck

 

[Mrwesson]

They are both great engines. Buy the boat you like.

Kind of ironic that based on hull shape i'd take the 3208's in the Alexander and the Lehman's in the Californian lol.

I'm sure both are semi displacement hull but the Alexander looks like it's designed to be run fast vs the Californian that looks *for the most part* like a trawler.

 

[Delirious]

Just saying, we have a CAT 3208, 210hp, single engine in our 1977 Thompson 44’ Trawler. 1500 RPM puts us at about 7.5 knots. Not sure how much slower you could want to go.
Napa has most Air/ Oil and fuel filters. 2200 hours on current and it just hums along.

 

[billybob]

engines

Cat 3208 is good for 25,000 hours if at all maintained; these are not long in the tooth by any means

 

[RickyD]

I had Twin Lehmans 375s in my 47. I did not like the smoke, nor the unburned fuel spots on my transom when I'd go full throttle. Plus they leaked oil. Number of hours as I recall were around 2000 at the time. Now I have 3208s in my 55. They smoke on start up until warm then they are quite nice. No oil leaks. Same fuel economy as far as I can tell as the Lehmans. I get about 1 mile per gallon at 10 knots. RPMS are 1550 to 1675. depending on how clean the bottom is. My 3208s are the 425hp variety. I understand that the 435 hp don't smoke as much. Mt brother has 3208s with something like 375 hp with no smoke even on cold start.

 

[RickyD]

Just for you RT . I had an old 66 Spitfire.

I had a Triumph TR3B. Red. It made me learn how to work on cars.