Flir

[AlpinaRanger]

Radar and FLIR are complementary. If I had a choice to pick only one I would choose radar. Radar does not work well in close quarters such as coming into a narrow marina. FLIR does not work well in fog because it cannot pick up the temperature differential as well. I don’t have any experience with night vision products. I looked at both hard mounted and monocular iR products from FLIR and chose the monocular version for the following reasons. While the hard mounted FLIR is convenient, it is fixed in nature unless you purchase the rotating version which is much more expensive. I ended up purchasing a Scion OTM 260 model from FLIR and bought the mounting base and rechargeable battery. I attach it to my computer with a USB-C cable. The focal distance on the handheld is narrower so you don’t get as wide of field of view, bower the resolution is double unless you get the high end hard mounted version which is much more expensive.

For my needs, I went with the handheld as it provided additional flexibility for my uses. Please note that the handheld will not work through glass as you will see yourself in the reflection versus through the glass.

 

[Benthic2]

Some background on IR development...

https://dsiac.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/DSIAC-Monograph-FLIR.pdf

wow....just the table of contents is 4 pages long !!

 

[psneeld]

wow....just the table of contents is 4 pages long !!

It was just a quick scan by me...

I thought the USCG testing the Northrop turret FLIR on one of our helos was like "wow new tech" back in the early 80's....

Then this article mentions WWI.

 

[Seevee]

The machinery to view IR has improved in that smaller size and weight make it easier to use, but so far as I have learned the laws of physics regarding transmission of IR through moisture have not changed.

Rich,
Perhaps we've learned to better deal with the laws of physics. One of the reasons I mentioned using it in fog is that a friend has a newer permanent mount FLIR and says it works well in fog. I've heard that from others, too.



So, wouldn't it be prudent to get tech info on current units?

 

[psneeld]

Rich,
Perhaps we've learned to better deal with the laws of physics. One of the reasons I mentioned using it in fog is that a friend has a newer permanent mount FLIR and says it works well in fog. I've heard that from others, too.



So, wouldn't it be prudent to get tech info on current units?

The article I linked I believe discusses in the advancements of different sensors and concentrating on certain wavelengths as well as improved sensitivity.

I know why.... but it's still weird that a little fog has more effect than the steel hull of a ship.

 

[SteveK]

Rich,
Perhaps we've learned to better deal with the laws of physics. One of the reasons I mentioned using it in fog is that a friend has a newer permanent mount FLIR and says it works well in fog. I've heard that from others, too.



So, wouldn't it be prudent to get tech info on current units?

Seriously, what test was performed to prove this?
What convinced him it works in fog?

Not talking scientific, just a layman test that satisfies one that it sees or would see a heat signature ahead in reasonable time to avoid a collision.
Is an alarm sounded or do you have to be looking at screen.

 

[Comodave]

The article I linked I believe discusses in the advancements of different sensors and concentrating on certain wavelengths as well as improved sensitivity.

I know why.... but it's still weird that a little fog has more effect than the steel hull of a ship.

I skimmed through the article, didn’t have weeks to try to understand all of it. Good article and they spoke about all the advancements in IR technology.

I also watched a couple of videos of IR cameras used during fog. The picture quality was not as good as no fog but they did show some of the targets. And in fog I will take some over none.

 

[LovetoBoat]

A boat fishing neighbor bought FLIR in 2021 and had it mounted on his center console boat. I asked about fog - he said and I quote - "It does not work in fog - it reflects back from the water droplets. Everything turns grey on the screen. So use your radar at that point."


YMMV but I wanted FLIR for the Maine waters and running occasionally on night runs. But Maine can be foggy and would be useless to avoid the pots.

 

[psneeld]

IR tech doesn't reflect anything back....minus one for the neighbor....unless he is saying the temp variations from the source are reflected back to the source...but I would have to check as I don't think that is the real issue why its weak in fog/mist/rain.

 

[Scottwb96]

The Flir cams are pretty amazing. The cams w/ the thermal AND low-light lenses are the way to go...

I installed a CAM210 bullet camera aiming forward from my flybridge. I also installed the AR200 Augmented Reality pack. I needed to upgrade/update my external GPS so for a little bit more than "just" the GPS puck I could have the AR information as well. The AR displayed on the MFD has been amazing, especially in low/no light and fog out on the Puget Sound & San Juan Islands... The AR pack overlays hits onto the screen to give you and actual forward looking view of where those targets are located...

https://panbo.com/flir-m232-thermal-camera-clearcruise-eyes-on-with-raymarine-axiom-and-es/


M232 is definitely on the list of future add-ons, just haven't done it yet...

The last 2 pics were from Saturday night here in Seattle, no light and also foggy out...

 

[MYTraveler]

My 13 year old FLIR doesn't work in fog any better than eyeballs during daylight in equivalent fog. If there is enough fog to mask vision, there is enough fog to attenuate the IR signal to the point of uselessness. It is conceivable that technology has improved enough to still present an image, but I doubt it.

 

[SteveK]

My 13 year old FLIR doesn't work in fog any better than eyeballs during daylight in equivalent fog. If there is enough fog to mask vision, there is enough fog to attenuate the IR signal to the point of uselessness. It is conceivable that technology has improved enough to still present an image, but I doubt it.

That makes two of us then.

 

[sunchaser]

In reading the latest M/V Dirona blog site James Hamilton discusses the use of his FLIR ONE thermal imaging camera for spotting electrical connection and panel issues. The F1 (about $300) connects to a smart phone and when using it to pan various connection spots, the potentially troublesome spots how up.

 

[Seevee]

Seriously, what test was performed to prove this?
What convinced him it works in fog?

Not talking scientific, just a layman test that satisfies one that it sees or would see a heat signature ahead in reasonable time to avoid a collision.
Is an alarm sounded or do you have to be looking at screen.

Seriously, there are no tests that I know of, and I haven't found any from anyone. However, just a layman's reviews have value to me (as we get from this forum). And seems like some folks have had good experience with fog and some not. Enough positive to certainly try it. We'll see.

 

[SteveK]

seevee
My concern is that people will run out and get this tech and then head out into the fog with no fog experience. Do people normally boat in the fog, or at night on purpose, I think not.

You have to be one of the crazies that volunteer for SAR to go out into the fog/night often enough to know if you can rely on this tech. Radar works and can be tested in the daytime. Those with spare coin should of course get FLIR and then report back on the success.

 

[MYTraveler]

Seriously, there are no tests that I know of

My tests are all anecdotal. I bought my first unit (for a prior boat) after being introduced to its capabilities at a boat show. As I was walking past the FLIR both, but pretty much ignoring it, the salesmen commented to me that I should get a fresh beer and come back. He went on to note that I was down to less than 1/4 beer, and he showed me his thermal image coming from a camera I hadn't even noticed. The heat (cold) signature was remarkable.
More recently, I noticed someone suspiciously walking on a jetty near the marina I was in. Then a bright hot arc erupted from his mid-section.

On another occasion, while in San Diego Harbor watching jet fighters take off at night, I was amazed at the distance at which FLIR could continue to pick up the jet engine exhaust (although it couldn't see anything in fog).

Another time in fog, transiting a narrow channel with a gently sloping beach on the starboard side, which radar could not pick up), FLIR was worthless.

 

[Seevee]

seevee
My concern is that people will run out and get this tech and then head out into the fog with no fog experience. Do people normally boat in the fog, or at night on purpose, I think not.

You have to be one of the crazies that volunteer for SAR to go out into the fog/night often enough to know if you can rely on this tech. Radar works and can be tested in the daytime. Those with spare coin should of course get FLIR and then report back on the success.

Soo,
I'd be surprised that folks would run out and get one just to play in the fog. And, no, most people do not run in the fog, but some do. I'll launch in fog with a forecast to improve, especially the morning fog. And, if fog comes in while underway, I'll most likely continue. However, I don't mind a conservative approach.



And, yes, radar is the first line of defense in the fog, and works pretty good. A secondary defense won't hurt.

 

[twistedtree]

Here's what FLIR has to say about it.


https://www.flir.com/discover/rd-science/can-thermal-imaging-see-through-fog-and-rain/


The only caveat is that this is coming from the company trying to see you a camera, but it does seem objective.

 

[MYTraveler]

Here's what FLIR has to say about it.

So, they are saying FLIR can see though fog almost as well as the human eye, across the range of fog categories they identify. Put differently, if the fog is thick enough that your eyes can't see through it in daylight, then FLIR won't be able to either.

 

[Seevee]

Here's what FLIR has to say about it.


https://www.flir.com/discover/rd-science/can-thermal-imaging-see-through-fog-and-rain/


The only caveat is that this is coming from the company trying to see you a camera, but it does seem objective.

That's what I saw, too. So, one needs to be aware of the limitations and plan accordingly. Cat IIIa and c are fairly rare, for the most part, and somewhat predictable. So often fog forms in the morning and burns off mid morning or noonish. That's pretty easy to deal with. Occasionally, different air masses mix and the fog hangs around for awhile.



Watching forecasts, temp/dew point spreads and weather systems can give a lot of good info on how to deal with fog. From the flir comments, it's clear that there are some advantages in fog.

 

[Circumnavigator]

I agree with this post.

while in pitch black night vision or flir would help and radar will also work but in 360*. Most nights there is always some light. as one who has travelled at night often it is very possible without night vision or flir with the naked eye.
Technology assist when money is no object, of course get it all.
Me, if I cannot see with my own eyes then I will want radar 1st and a chartplotter, then night vision and FLIR

Agreed, Radar does it better.





We took a second generation night vision around the world. We also had a 1990s radar. Used the night vision two or three times, the radar all the time.


Since then I have carried the night vision racing and cruising and used it rarely, may be once a year, even though the boat I raced on did not have radar.


Bottom line, before I bought night vision again, I'd first spend money on a Doppler radar, satellite compass, AIS transceiver, and a big screen (at least 1280x1024) chart plotter.



Jim

 

[Packer fan]

After the end of the boating season I purchased an AGM Tiapan TM15-256.

I wanted something dual purposed. Hand held and able to mount. With the app you can view it on your phone or tablet via WiFi. I plan on mounting it on the boat and using WiFi because it doesn't work through glass. It is very impressive looking around the neighborhood.

Just another option

 

[BevinB]

I hedged my bets and installed a FLIR and Radar as not being a professional seafarer I’m not that confident using my radar alone in fog, at night or in bad weather. I didn’t think the price was that prohibitive considering. Would’ve liked to go for the color FLIR but that was costly.

 

[Seevee]

I hedged my bets and installed a FLIR and Radar as not being a professional seafarer I’m not that confident using my radar alone in fog, at night or in bad weather. I didn’t think the price was that prohibitive considering. Would’ve liked to go for the color FLIR but that was costly.

BevinB,


Which FLIR did you get, and please comment about how it works for you.

 

[BevinB]

I went with this one - With me it was a case of the Scotch you want to buy or the Scotch you want to drink … The camera on the port side of it is part of the Raymarine ClearCruise Augmented Reality (AR) system. Which is another very cool all weather collision avoidance and nav aid guidance system: https://youtu.be/h189MnFL4Jw

 

[twistedtree]

I went with this one - With me it was a case of the Scotch you want to buy or the Scotch you want to drink … The camera on the port side of it is part of the Raymarine ClearCruise Augmented Reality (AR) system. Which is another very cool all weather collision avoidance and nav aid guidance system: https://youtu.be/h189MnFL4Jw

Which model? Looks like one of the M300 series?

 

[BevinB]

Mine is the M232 which cost $3500. The M300’s came out a little later and I believe are twice the price.

Edited to add the 232 is B & W pan and tilt