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Old 02-01-2018, 06:26 PM   #41
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So a moron takes 5 weeks to pump his boat out, doesn't talk terms and gets hit with a salvage bill and all of a sudden everything needs to be changed!

You going to disagree that was salvage, or no? Was: 1) the assisted vessel is subject to a reasonable apprehension of marine peril- does not have to be in immediate danger; 2) the assistance is voluntary; and 3) the assistance is successful in whole or part.

Why not rent a trash pump for a couple of bucks? Since he waited 5 weeks, and was in no rush to use his boat, I'm sure he could have battled it out in court.
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Old 02-01-2018, 07:54 PM   #42
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I would not consider that salvage......the boat was tied up at a dock and was not in danger of sinking, leaking oil, or obstructing a navigable waterway. He certainly could have been smarter about things.....but there's no way that should be a $13k service.

and no...not everything has to be changed....just the protections put in place so dirtbag salvors don't get to legally screw people. I don't think a true professional person would do that....that's why I don't think this law will impact anyone but the dirtbags.

This has devolved into a personal disagreement between us and I don't think either of us is about to change their mind. Its no longer contributing to the content of the forum, so we should probably just declare a cease fire.
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Old 02-01-2018, 08:18 PM   #43
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Just read through this string. There are two people giving their opinion on this subject, which is also based on their experiences as professional Mariners. Reading about a subject is important-but living it can put things in a different context. Anyway, it was a good discussion. Every time this subject comes up I learn something.
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Old 02-01-2018, 08:20 PM   #44
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Imagine the absurdity if land tow truck drivers based their charges on car value. You're broken down on the side of the interstate highway, gee, dangerous situation, you could get killed by passing traffic any second. Tow a 1982 Chevy, charge $1,000. Tow a 2017 Cadillac Escalade, charge $60,000. After all, the tow truck driver is using specialized equipment to save life and property from immediate disaster, potentially risking his own life, he could get whacked by passing traffic too, gee, only fair...

That maritime legal concept is a ridiculous relic from the days when Shakespeare was writing about the shipwreck in The Tempest.
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Old 02-01-2018, 08:30 PM   #45
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so simple..... even a caveman can do it....
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Old 02-01-2018, 09:59 PM   #46
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Huh. We stayed at Ganges last summer for one night on a charter. Unlike every other Canadian marina on the trip, Ganges was not helpful or friendly. They seemed annoyed by our presence and acted like they were doing us a huge favor to let us stay there. They also watched us go to a slip on the wrong end from the marina office windows and didn't say a word. And it was kind of a gross marina too, some of the shoreside slips were filled with floating garbage. The town was great and we happened on a fantastic restaurant, but the marina staff, not so much. Sorry, thread drift.
Which marina? There are several, "Ganges Marina", "Kanaka", "Saltspring Marina at Harbour's End", "Centennial Wharf".
I regularly visit most of these, and would like to know which you are referring to, as I am sure, would its owners.
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Old 02-01-2018, 10:35 PM   #47
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Nothing like knowing that a contracted tow is going to cost somewher between nothing and half the value of your vessel for budgeting and planning.
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Old 02-01-2018, 11:34 PM   #48
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I feel like I'm missing part of the discussion here. I've heard why salvage is entitled to considerable compensation, and I agree, but I haven't heard why it's reasonable to base that on the value of the vessel. In fact I believe that true salvage would be worth more than the value of my boat if I were in peril. Why base it on that? Just because we always have? I'm seriously trying to understand this issue.
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Old 02-02-2018, 12:39 AM   #49
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I have used Towboat US twice now and both times they provided excellent service. I was crewing in a race on a sailboat when we hit a rock and cracked the keel, the bilge pumps could not keep up. The owner/skipper called towboat US and they came with a generator and two large electric pumps which kept the boat afloat until it could be towed and pulled out of the water. Even though the boat was sinking, they never even mentioned "salvage" and took us some 30 miles to the only place open that would pull the boat. I think they do an excellent job for the small yearly fee it costs. Do we need regulations to protect us from Boat US captains and SeaTow? I think not, however there are some less scrupulous "rescuers" out there that this legislation might help with.
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Old 02-02-2018, 01:43 AM   #50
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There is every reason a rescue operator should be adequately rewarded for time skill effort,including as part of standing overhead expenses the value of special equipment owned maintained and kept at the ready. And there should be an element of charge related to the particular circumstances of the work, which might range from mundane to heroic.
But, the salvor fee should not be whatever the salvor nominates. There should be a fair method of calculation, it can`t just be whatever the salvor thinks he can charge. There needs to be a reviewing authority, or a formula,or both, to ensure the salvor is adequately remunerated and the owner is not ripped off, and his boat not unfairly made the subject of a lien with what sounds from comments above to have elements of threat and blackmail.
If the owner has a towing service contract that should regulate what is/is not covered by the premium. Anything beyond that should be subject to regulation as above.
I don`t envy the task of reducing that to a legal framework but I`m sure it can be done with fairness to both parties.
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Old 02-02-2018, 02:47 AM   #51
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Having boating nearly three decades off and on over the last six decades in the San Francisco Estuary/ Bay/ Delta, have never needed assistance. Knock on (wooden) skull!
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Old 02-02-2018, 05:34 AM   #52
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I would not consider that salvage......the boat was tied up at a dock and was not in danger of sinking, leaking oil, or obstructing a navigable waterway. He certainly could have been smarter about things.....but there's no way that should be a $13k service.

and no...not everything has to be changed....just the protections put in place so dirtbag salvors don't get to legally screw people. I don't think a true professional person would do that....that's why I don't think this law will impact anyone but the dirtbags.

This has devolved into a personal disagreement between us and I don't think either of us is about to change their mind. Its no longer contributing to the content of the forum, so we should probably just declare a cease fire.
the case you present is a clear example of an unscrupulous salvor. There is no peril,it has passed. This should have been a case of a negotiated salvage rate. IF it was executed under a LOF 200 (Lloyds open for of Salvage 2000) the parties would be "encouraged" to settle it. IF it went to arbitration, the greedy salvor would have been punished if the situation was a quick pump. Thats the thing of LOF, it provides for third party arbitration at very reasonable costs. The two parties negotiate based on circumstances,weather,amount of peril,equipment involved,and yes, the salved value of the casualty. To say its antique laws that don't apply to todays situation is naive at best The value of equipment and potential pollution to be prevented is much more than years ago. Why would anyone risk their equipment or harm to personnel if they were only to recieve time and material compensation? The Insurance companies WANT salvors to be out there. The essence of the agreement is "NO CURE, NO PAY", the salvors are required to use their BEST ENDEAVORS (resources) to remedy the situation. I have been involved in several LOF salvages, 2 were in Boston, 1 settled quickly, 1 went to arbitration and we were awarded almost 3 times our initial claim amount..Why? Because the insurance company was trying to bully a small operator. Arbitration frowns upon either side not doing what is expected. The company I work for now lost over 10 million dollars on 1 salvage job under "No Cure,No Pay". Its a double edge sword.

The car by the side of the road scenario is ridiculous. Try walking away from a marine casualty while its happening. Cars by the side of the road are hardly in peril....
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Old 02-02-2018, 06:52 AM   #53
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And usually a tow, without ungrounding, is never more than the hourly rate or included in membership. That is because the towing company knows that what is covered.....and the hourly rates established, so a trip to court for gouuging would not be a smart move.

In the membership agreement, it says that outside of a few simple services, if you request work, it is not covered and therefore paid differently.
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Old 02-02-2018, 08:27 AM   #54
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Imagine the absurdity if land tow truck drivers based their charges on car value.
Good analogy.
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Old 02-02-2018, 08:34 AM   #55
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Good analogy.


Or if doctors checked your family wealth before they treated you.
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Old 02-02-2018, 09:44 AM   #56
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And, to me, the biggest problem with salvage rates when you have a contract, is that you have a contract. I agree that mischaracterizing a tow operation as a salvage operation probably doesn't happen often, but it's pretty obvious from lots of reported accounts that it does happen occasionally.

It's like the old joke about what will a drowning man agree to pay for you to toss him a life jacket. The fact that he agreed to pay you a hundred thousand dollars for it, doesn't make it right, just legal.

And, the law can be changed, as per the subject of this article.
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Old 02-02-2018, 10:04 AM   #57
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As I noted earlier, I know the owner of ST in my area well. I can tell you that no one at his company is getting rich. They have saved a lot of people’s rear end from some potentially very bad situations, and received a hand shake in return. The few times they did claim salvage it was warranted, and terms were agreed upon. There are a few bad Apples in any industry, so recalling a few anecdotes of unfair practices is not a fair comparison in relation to the hundreds of calls these guys handle every month.
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Old 02-02-2018, 10:12 AM   #58
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Not many people get shot at either, but that doesn't mean laws to prohibit it, aren't necessary. A rare problem, is still a problem, when it's your problem.
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Old 02-02-2018, 10:37 AM   #59
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several points people bring up...I am not sure anyone is against tightening the noose on rediculous billing, but a few pros who have actually done salvage and rescue do dispute that the concept of salvage and the laws are unjust or archane.

There ARE current laws on salvage and courts to deal with it. They have changed with the times and now arbitrators are usually used. But if Florida wants the simple knot tightened, I agree with it.

Not revamping all of salvage and its international implications too.

And the reference to the Colregs was twisted, and the towtruck comparison is ludicrous to salvage. Simple boat towing yes, and I agree there should be and 90 or better percent it usually is just covered or a going rate.
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Old 02-02-2018, 03:34 PM   #60
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Warning, thread drift again...

Quote:
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Which marina? There are several, "Ganges Marina", "Kanaka", "Saltspring Marina at Harbour's End", "Centennial Wharf". I regularly visit most of these, and would like to know which you are referring to, as I am sure, would its owners.
At the risk of annoying TiltRider1, it was Ganges. I remember it clearly because at one point checking in we asked whether our BoatUS or MarinaLife memberships or YCA reciprocity gave us any discounts. The guy checking us in asked "What country are you in?" Canada. "Well there's your answer." He was so abrupt it made me laugh. We also chartered a 50 footer that year so accidentally entering the wrong end in a relatively tight slipway as they watched was not much fun, but we spun around okay and went to the other side (north end). But overall we still had a blast, just love BC. Great supermarket and coffee in Ganges. Had dinner at Oystercatcher, one of the best meals of the trip. Cuban cigars. It was a beautiful couple days.
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