Fire Suppression

[bhumphrys]

Probably not bad advice, but I really don't need hull coverage..just liability if I can find a carrier. Unless of course, if my boat fire while under way might endanger another boat. Rather than a port..I would prefer to install a proper manually remote activated spray system.

For what it is worth, I did get my boat surveyed about 3 months ago with purchase and had the same fire recommendations. Also had the same issues with insurance requirements before issuing a policy. However, I really only wanted liability coverage and was able to find that with Progressive. No one else would offer me liability only. The price was half, no survey needed, and did it all in 5 minutes online.

Thought this might help. Eventually I will put a port to my engine room behind the stairs but am in no rush with my twin diesels.

 

[Capt Richard A.]

Hello,
Wishing you the best.
1. Pretend it’s 66 ft. and go from there.
2. I would set the temp. To 200 degrees
3. The surveyor needs to clarify the auto system in detail, and with your questions. You paid him right?
4. I would go over all your wiring that you can reach using a flashlight. So, you can sleep at night.
I had a 1- screw also, thank god I was skinny.
5. I would only talk to marine engineers/ surveyors. General population really are not qualified.

Best to you.

 

[garychurch]

There are many stories of boats lost to fire. Many of these have fires that spread so fast and with so much intensity that that the use of manual extinguishers were timely but still too late and proved useless.

I am a big proponent of automatic systems. The fire supression system on my boat has temperature alarm then activates a charged gas system to automatically close engine intake and exhaust ports and shut done the respective fans. It also shuts done the engines and floods the engine room with chemicals. If needed there is an override in the helm to restart the engines.

 

[Hoppys GB]

Thank you to all who have contributed to this string. This is one topic that has been on my mind since I currently have no system in place and have been trying to come up with a safe and viable system. There has been some great conversation here and I hope that it continues as information evolves on the topic.

 

[stroutmail]

Like I said earlier..lots if attention to engine room systems...which ARE important to consider...but fire suppression is about suppressing fire anywhere on the boat...The galley and electrical sources of fire in the cabin are just as likely to be what you will be fighting.

What kind of alarm do you have for the cabin? Can people exit the cabin if fire blocks the normal path?

What are you doing to avoid electrical fires in hidden places..behind wall panels? How would you fight a fire burning in those hidden places?

So what are you doing to fight fires in the cabin? And, also important..what agent are you using? In addition to the old and VERY messy CO2 dry chem, there are at least five other valid choices..all with different advantages and disadvantages.

Being safe from fire is more than just what system is in the engine room
.IMHO.

Are you willing to use Halon 1211-the most effective agent available?...Or are you environmentally focused on less effective afents but agents that are less harmful to ozone and global warming.

 

[Hoppys GB]

Stroutmail all good points, that’s what make this forum so great, it initiates thought

 

[rslifkin]

Electrical fires are a concern, definitely. Galley fires are more manageable in my mind, as they're less likely to start unattended and are likely able to be dealt with before spreading. Electrical fires, on the other hand, can easily be out of control before they're ever detected.

 

[stroutmail]

And another problem with electrical fires is the source of ignition/heat from an overloaded circuit may not subside after you put out the fire--and the fire starts over. That master switch and master breaker being turned off is important I think.

 

[rslifkin]

Yes. And that's why I hate the idea of bypassing the battery switch for bilge pumps and such. That switch isn't something to turn off when you leave the boat, it's an emergency cutoff. If I kill the shore breakers and flip the battery switches, I expect every last device to be depowered.

 

[Spinner]

Hmm, interesting topic that expanded - how unusual!! I too think fire is the most dangerous situation onboard.

My 2003 42 Nordic Tug came with a automatic fire suppression system in the engine room. When I switched insurance companies this year, I was required to get that re-certified. I took the opportunity to replace fire extinguishers (and have them mounted) in staterooms, galley, and salon, and cockpit. I have had a fire blanket in the galley for years. In my opinion, this is minimum. I have a ladder to use if the forward hatch is the only means of egress, and staterooms have wool blankets which might make a difference in escaping a fire (wool is fairly fireproof).

I like the idea of an additional manual system for the ER, but I am uncertain how to do that; the ER is below the salon and opening up a port would mean opening the salon to the fire... how is the port made safe??

 

[FF]

"And that's why I hate the idea of bypassing the battery switch for bilge pumps and such."


The "always hot bus" usually has a fuse to protect the wiring.


A CB would defeat the purpose of an always hot circuit as it might be switched off..

 

[OldDan1943]

Spinner,
what size fire blanket do you keep in the galley? Do you hang it on the wall or perhaps a cabinet side?

 

[rslifkin]

"And that's why I hate the idea of bypassing the battery switch for bilge pumps and such."


The "always hot bus" usually has a fuse to protect the wiring.


A CB would defeat the purpose of an always hot circuit as it might be switched off..

I agree on fuses rather than breakers on the always hot bus. But to me, that bus should still be controlled by the main battery switches. You can have a separate DC panel main if you're of the "turn all power off when leaving boat" type. But in an emergency, I want to be able to throw that switch and kill everything and not have to pull any fuses, etc.

 

[OldDan1943]

I am reasonable sure more houses burn up than boats, each year.
A house fire, you can go outside sit on the lawn chairs and wait for the fire department to respond.
That may not an option for a boat, underway/away from a dock. In fact, you may be fighting a holding action until you launch the RIB, get your PFDs, get the wife/crew into the RIB and move away from the boat and watch after calling the CG.

An interesting comparison would be, the percentage of houses that burn up compared to the percentage of boats that burn up.

Every life is worth far more important than some stupid ol'boat That is why you/we have boat insurance. Remember, personal belonging, you maybe able to make a claim on your household insurance policy too. I was able to make a claim on my household insurance when I was broken into and they stole my wallet.
Dont forget, you did have 3 Picasso paintings and a grand piano onboard too. LOL

 

[Sharpseadog]

I agree with you. By the time an automatic system activates, fire would be well established. Early detection is the key. An inexpensive solution is multiple wireless linked smoke detectors. One in engine room, and a repeater at each helm station. These units are battery operated and are available at home improvement stores for approximately $25. These units are very sensitive and will all sound alarm if one of them is activated. I have one in engine room, one in pilothouse, and one on flybridge. Simple, inexpensive, and effective. "The Great Chicago Fire could have been put out with a teacup of water if it had been early enough" [emoji924][emoji4]

Comments made by a surveyor set me off on a research project on fire suppression on boats.

For background, I am a degreed Mechanical Engineer with several patents and have managed very large fleets of trucks and buses. I am also a pilot and a race car driver that is very familiar with fire suppression.

Surveyor recommended an automatic engine fire suppression system..the kind that goes off if engine compartment temp exceeds 180 degrees and that shuts engine down. Or..a port in the salon floor thru which I would spray the suppressant, so I did not have to lift floor panel.

First...there is no USCG regs for either if these solutions.

Second, there is no way I would want an auto shutdown for my engine and really no way I would want a system to go off automatically.

Third, the new Halon replacement fluids are not just made to "fill up" the engine compartment..they are made to reduce oxygen, BUT more importantly to COOL the burning liquid. So they should be fired at the flame...not just into the engine compartment.

Fourth..I have a single engine in a cavernous engine room.. Not much combustible material near engine.

Fifth..I bought a diesel engine boat because they almost never catch fire. Theoretically possible, but very improbable. The real risk is an electrical fire..from big batteries or wiring.

Sixth..I would much rather have a good warning alarm so I can put out a small fire than waiting for an inferno fueled by a couple hundred gallons of diesel.

Finally, I have read all of the current USCG regs as well as their published "guidance" and I can find no requirement for a USCG approved engine room system for a motorboat less than 65 feet.

My goal is to add a fire alarm system, and upgrade my extinguishers to Halotron..number and size in excess of USCG regs. In addition,as a bonus, probably will add a manually fired Halotron system to spray above batteries.

Comments?

 

[Spinner]

Spinner,
what size fire blanket do you keep in the galley? Do you hang it on the wall or perhaps a cabinet side?

Hello OldDan, I don’t recall the size, but it’s a Nomex fire blanket and it’s hung on a wall (I bought one for home also ). They’re not very expensive....

 

[OldDan1943]

Hello OldDan, I don’t recall the size, but it’s a Nomex fire blanket and it’s hung on a wall (I bought one for home also ). They’re not very expensive....

Does your fire blanket come in a red plastic pouch or in a plastic box?

 

[Spinner]

The fire blanket came in a red plastic pouch. I bought it on Amazon :-D

 

[OldDan1943]

The fire blanket came in a red plastic pouch. I bought it on Amazon :-D

Thank you. That is the smaller of the 2 offered. I hope no fire blanket owner ever need to use a fire blanket. But, it is fantastic addition if needed.

 

[O C Diver]

A few points:

I think it's good to have more than 1 fire suppression system. I view 3+ different scenarios. There is you at the helm driving the boat paying attention to the engine room conditions. There is somebody else driving the boat while you're in the head or napping. There is the boat at anchor or the dock, with shore power or a generator running and everyone may be napping. It seems that there is a need for automatic suppression when someone else is operating or everyone is napping. I think there is also a need for manual suppression for an incomplete job or fire outside the engine room.

Strongly recommend smoke detectors through out the boat that are linked.

Regarding flares, there time has passed. The USCG approved flashing strobe meets the requirements without the fire risk. If it's time to signal someone, I'm either going to use my phone, one of two VHF radios, one of two EPIRBS, one of two PLBs, or I can send a text message via satellite. When flares started going on boats, none of the above existed.

Ted

 

[firehoser75]

Ted,
Agree completely about the flares......unfortunately for us Canadians, still required to carry them per our regulations. Apparently they have been "studying" the flashing strobe you mentioned for a few years now???? Smoke detectors also a must and within reason, more is better than less. Early detection is critical. For galley fire, pot lids, fire blanket, and nearby portable extinguisher are items to have and use, probably in that order (generally speaking), especially since improper use of an extinguisher in the galley could actually spread fire at least initially. Good discussion.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

I didn't do enough research when recently buying smoke detectors for my new-to-me 1981 Taiwan Trawler. It apparently had never had them and I bought a pair of basic ones. Then I see that they have wireless connected models. For $30 each (instead of my $30 a pair), I could have one in the engine room and one behind the upper helm. The one in the engine room is more probable to go off, but I might not hear it on the flying bridge. If it were wireless connected to the upper one, I could hear it on the FB and, since the FB helm is directly above the lower helm, the upper smoke detector would probably be the loudest one there as well.

I'm kind of interested in the automated fire suppression systems, but it seems like a system that doesn't pop off until it is 180 degrees in the engine room is sort of "better late than never." How long would the heat source have been smoking/burning before it got the engine room to 180? An automated system can protect even a deaf, blind, unobservant crew, but it sure seems that a good smoke detector system could provide a 10 minute window before open flames generate sauna temps in the engine room.

 

[Destinees]

Trawler 40' Fireboy CG2 System

We installed a Fireboy CG2 AutoShutOff, in addition to the automatic discharge, but also have a manual discharge override pin that is out of the way but easy to get to and pull if needed. From observation the biggest problem with boat fire seems to be that you'll probably know when a fire occurs. The Manual discharge allows the boat's occupant to discharge as soon as a fire is noticed, saving severe damage to the engine room equipment. The way you wire the system provides options of choice much earlier than the automatic discharge.

 

[O C Diver]

I didn't do enough research when recently buying smoke detectors for my new-to-me 1981 Taiwan Trawler. It apparently had never had them and I bought a pair of basic ones. Then I see that they have wireless connected models. For $30 each (instead of my $30 a pair), I could have one in the engine room and one behind the upper helm. The one in the engine room is more probable to go off, but I might not hear it on the flying bridge. If it were wireless connected to the upper one, I could hear it on the FB and, since the FB helm is directly above the lower helm, the upper smoke detector would probably be the loudest one there as well.

I ended up going with the wireless units with the 10 year battery. Installed one in pilothouse, saloon, engine room, each stateroom and the hallway. The stateroom and hallway units have lights to aid in exiting. The Kidde units have a 10 year battery guarantee. Probably will outlast my boat ownership. Under $300 for all 6 and no batteries to replace.

Ted

 

[Codger2]

I ended up going with the wireless units with the 10 year battery. Installed one in pilothouse, saloon, engine room, each stateroom and the hallway. The stateroom and hallway units have lights to aid in exiting.

I love this idea but it immediately posed a potential problem in my mind. If a fire starts in any one of the alarm locations and they all go off, how do you determine, quickly, which location the fire is in?

 

[rslifkin]

I love this idea but it immediately posed a potential problem in my mind. If a fire starts in any one of the alarm locations and they all go off, how do you determine, quickly, which location the fire is in?

I think some of the better systems let you assign a name to each detector and it'll announce which one triggered the alarm.

 

[O C Diver]

I love this idea but it immediately posed a potential problem in my mind. If a fire starts in any one of the alarm locations and they all go off, how do you determine, quickly, which location the fire is in?

My boat's not that big.

The green alarming light is only displayed on the triggered detector. The other units only announce, beep, and activate white illumination lights if so equipped. With the exception of the engine room detector, I can walk from the helm, by the saloon, down the hallway and by the two staterooms in about 15 seconds. I can look at the engine room temperature gauge before leaving the pilothouse. You flybridge drivers probably can't get to the bottom of the stairs in 15 seconds.

Ted

 

[firehoser75]

Correct rslifkin.

 

[Codger2]

My boat's not that big. The green alarming light is only displayed on the triggered detector......... You flybridge drivers probably can't get to the bottom of the stairs in 15 seconds.

Precisely my point!

 

[hughespat57]

The options for the original question have been well covered and the OP seems to have settled on a reasonable solution for his situation. And each vessel situation is different.

The key to successful fire fighting has always been to detect and get it out quickly. A boat fire that burns more than 10 minutes is unlikely to be able to be controlled. (an old statistic that I cant find the reference) Do not hesitate to pull manual bottles. Do not hesitate to "make a mess" with dry chemical. Use the entire extinguisher, once triggered even for a short blast, the powder will prevent the valve from fully seating and the gas can continue to seep out rendering the extinguisher useless in as little as a few minutes. So use it up and be sure the fire is beat down. Then grab another one...

I have a 1994 Express cruiser with twin gasoline engines, so a greater fire risk.
Boat was OEM with a single Halon bottle in the ER and no auto shutdown. I have added a second Halon bottle in the opposite corner. (I picked it up at an excellent price.) They are not synchronized but give me a "second chance" for suppression and spread out the sensor heads.

As has been pointed out in an engine room shutting down blowers, engines and generators quickly is crucial to effective flooding suppression. I now have a Fire Boy style control that is powered when any of the above are active and shuts down all of the above if a bottle triggers. And has the engine over-ride safety to restart if needed. The control is just a set of relays and not very expensive.

Shutting down all engines also shuts down any fuel pumps that may be adding to the fire regardless of how it may have started.
AND disconnect batteries since they are the primary source of electrical energy for fires. I have battery switches for each engine and a seperate for the house bank (VHF-DSC, GPS) so I have no hesitation about killing both engine electrical. And my switches are not in the engine room.

We should never depend on any one solution for all situations. I to have detectors and manual fire extinguishers grossly exceeding Coast Guard "minimums". A 5BC next to the galley, a 10BC at the cabin entry and a 20BC near the helm just in case.

Then there is the "most likely" causes, BoatUS indicated that 50% of all boat fires are electrical in nature and 80% of those start in the shore tie socket, the 30 amp twist style. Upgrading some high risk components is more effective then any reactive solution. I upgraded to IEC309 standard 120/240V 60A rated pin and sleeve commonly seen style in 100 amp marine service.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set?set=a.10216804598211841&type=3

Halon 1301 is an excellent flooding agent, it is no longer manufactured due to it being a CFC (chlorinated) agent. But it is recycled during bottle maintenance and is still readily available for refill if required.

What is Halon and How Does it Work?

Pat Hughes
USCG retired