Fire at Alabama Docks

[angus99]

What a terrible loss of life. And too close to home; we’re headed to Scottsboro in March. this is not going to be pleasant reading as new details are reported.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/27/us/alabama-boat-fire/index.html

 

[gsholz]

Terrible. Covered moorage is a death trap during fires.

 

[rgano]

I read where some folks were forced out to the seaward end of the pier where they boarded a boat and were eventually forced into the water. Many factors were obviously at play, but I wonder if anybody gave thought to cutting that boat free and pushing away from the pier. I know I would have or even started it and gotten underway if at all possible.

 

[Olebird]

Truly regrettable.

Condolences to loved ones.



Trust investigators will find the cause so we all can make changes to prevent this kind of thing.

 

[BandB]

This is at Jackson County Park on Guntersville Lake on the TN River. Can't be sure using Google Earth but it appears the covered docks did not have openings or vents in the roofs as modern construction regulations require in most places.

Number of deaths still to be determined as five reported in update and at least three others missing.

Messaging all here, please look carefully at docks and also any fire protection. 35 boats destroyed would seem to indicate no on site fire pumps or hoses.

 

[BandB]

The docks were wood. Many of the boats there are houseboats. Efforts in finding bodies have been limited by the roof which collapsed on top of the boats. The fire occurred shortly after midnight.

 

[Olebird]

Eight additional fatalities found by divers.

 

[Ray]

We live a couple of blocks from the Marina. The marina is very old and the docks were wood fixed, not floating. With the fire most likely starting on the boats close to the shore end, the folks had one option and that was to jump in the water. According to reports people on the dock ran to a boat tied to the end of the dock but it caught fire causing them to jump in the water. The water temp is 49-50 degrees. Glad to hear the rescuers were quick on the scene. Hard to believe.

 

[localboy]

50F water...that will suck the life right out of you. Horrible.

 

[BandB]

50F water...that will suck the life right out of you. Horrible.

Fortunately it was Alabama and fishing reports I found said mid 50's. Cold but certainly better than had it been 40 degrees or colder. At least many who jumped in survived.

 

[CaptTom]

Went by there a couple of years ago. I can only imagine a fire inside the covered docks. It must have been horrible.

Fire on a boat is certainly something we all think about, but this is a completely different scale of disaster. Not sure I'd know what to do, but for sure I'm going to have an exit strategy next time I'm at a place like that.

Thoughts and prayers for all involved.

 

[Olebird]

Dry timbers, fire spread rapidly, metal roof collapsed, trapping some. Smoke from burning FG and plastics was highly toxic. No vents in the roof to vent the smoke. Fire started in slip #1 closest to land side. Occupant's forced to seaward end - firefighters blocked. Only option was the water. Collapsed roof slowed pumpers from getting water on the burning boats from landside. No fire boats close enough to help as far as I know.

Long way to adjacent docks from the seaward end of B Dock - in the dark, in the cold, fog, rain, smoke and fuels on the water. Some boats were cut loose, but they were already on fire. Water is shallow, bottom is knee deep mud!

Perfect Storm!

 

[BandB]

Dry timbers, fire spread rapidly, metal roof collapsed, trapping some. Smoke from burning FG and plastics was highly toxic. No vents in the roof to vent the smoke. Long way to adjacent docks from the seaward end of B Dock in the dark, in the cold, fog, rain, smoke and fuels on the water. Some boats were cut loose, but they were already on fire.


Perfect Storm!

Do you feel the other marinas on Guntersville Lake are safer from fire?

One thing we noticed on the TN River was the age of most marinas. I was simply comparing to the marinas on the lake we lived on in NC. I was shocked as a young person in NC when all the new marinas were open. It was a Duke Power requirement to protect the fish and sea bed or something of that nature. The house we bought had a treasured and grandfathered asset of a dock with a covered slip.

 

[Pete Meisinger]

I know things are different in a panic situation. But I would do two things right away.

#1) If it wasn't already too late I would cut my boat loose, either with or without me on board.
#2) Into the water I go. I don't care if it is cold or I am in my pajamas. I'v never been to a marina where the closest dock or shore was more that a two minute swim away.

Condolences and prayers to victims

pete

 

[Olebird]

Depends! A few years back, a tornado came down the lake and took out several of the older marinas. Alred's rebuilt with all metal. Unfortunately Jackson County was untouched and dated back to the 50 or 60's. Guntersville City Marina was moved from down town (and a real fire trap) to the south side of Big Spring Creek and expanded. I think it was rebuilt with steel - not sure. At least Guntersville FD has a good sized Fire Boat with a Pump & Water Cannon.


Brown's Creek Marina - scares me just to drive by. Same as Jackson County.

The real problem is lack of codes and enforcement. This may force some changes. Many marinas are out in the county where there are few if any applicable Fire and Life Safety codes. TVA is so strapped for money by the Feds - they don't do much of anything these days.

For transients, short term I think you can over night at the old down town marina site - no services, but close to downtown - walking distance to a couple of good restaurants - and the usual "plastic" mystery meat joints.


Alred's longer stays and for services - just watch the channel depth. They also have a mobile lift, and nice facilities.



Don't know much about Guntersville City - haven't been over there in years.



The State Park has a few transient slips (call ahead) with services - shuttle up to the lodge on top of the mountain - decent restaurant - just remember it's a State Park.

Those of us who came back home after careers in the real world - are dragging Alabama kicking and screaming into the 1970's - politics - don't get me started!



PS. Orange Beach & Huntsville - are not really in Alabama!! Ditto Landing (just below the Dam) had a big expansion budget - not sure where that project is.


Thanks for asking.

 

[Olebird]

The lesson in all this - is to assess any dock you're tied to and have a plan in case of fire. First indications of any problem at a strange dock - cut the lines - fire up the mains - sound five, and get under way!



Special knife just for that - at the ready! Will cut a 5/8" nylon line with one swipe!

 

[Olebird]

Rich,


Don't think there were any boats side tied to the dock. Pretty sure all were in covered slips - some smaller boats on lifts. Bigger live aboard house boats likely heavily secured - we've had some unusually high winds last few weeks. Likely all gassers.


This is one reason why I bought a diesel.

 

[SoWhat]

Hmmm. I have a CO2 alarm on board. No smoke alarm. Going to change that very quickly.

 

[localboy]

The lesson in all this - is to assess any dock you're tied to and have a plan in case of fire. First indications of any problem at a strange dock - cut the lines - fire up the mains - sound five, and get under way!

True of any emergency. Pre-planning is of utmost importance with different plans for different scenarios. I’ve grown into the habit since entering my LE career. Perhaps it’s experience or paranoia...but I’d rather go down fighting than roll into a panicked ball and take it.

 

[High Wire]

Horrible, just horrible.

 

[Olebird]

Panic is a killer. When I feel a little tinge in a tight spot - a little guy on my shoulder screams: You don't have to die this day, this way! Turn and Burn!

 

[BandB]

Depends! A few years back, a tornado came down the lake and took out several of the older marinas. Alred's rebuilt with all metal. Unfortunately Jackson County was untouched and dated back to the 50 or 60's. Guntersville City Marina was moved from down town (and a real fire trap) to the south side of Big Spring Creek and expanded. I think it was rebuilt with steel - not sure. At least Guntersville FD has a good sized Fire Boat with a Pump & Water Cannon.


Brown's Creek Marina - scares me just to drive by. Same as Jackson County.

The real problem is lack of codes and enforcement. This may force some changes. Many marinas are out in the county where there are few if any applicable Fire and Life Safety codes. TVA is so strapped for money by the Feds - they don't do much of anything these days.

For transients, short term I think you can over night at the old down town marina site - no services, but close to downtown - walking distance to a couple of good restaurants - and the usual "plastic" mystery meat joints.


Alred's longer stays and for services - just watch the channel depth. They also have a mobile lift, and nice facilities.



Don't know much about Guntersville City - haven't been over there in years.



The State Park has a few transient slips (call ahead) with services - shuttle up to the lodge on top of the mountain - decent restaurant - just remember it's a State Park.

Those of us who came back home after careers in the real world - are dragging Alabama kicking and screaming into the 1970's - politics - don't get me started!



PS. Orange Beach & Huntsville - are not really in Alabama!! Ditto Landing (just below the Dam) had a big expansion budget - not sure where that project is.


Thanks for asking.

What is interesting is if you want to build a new marina on the TN River, under TVA rules, you'll do it all right. Look at the ones built by Rarity Club on Lake Tellico by the developer who had plans to build on Nickajack but went bankrupt with all his developments. Beautiful marinas. I even looked at the property on Nickajack and the potential there and the marina was never going to pay for itself in that location and across from Hale's Bar. Too small and too expensive, much like the development which thought it was upscale but didn't grasp that people weren't going to pay in that location. But today, TVA only allows first class new marinas, just the lakes are full of grandfathered.

 

[HiDHo]

As Ray mentioned this a old fixed marina which is a covered dock with wood structure and decking. I wintered there while on the loop. It was not uncommon to have power station fires and tripped breakers back then 2003-4. I believe it was built and wired for small boat use. I would not be surprised if cold weather and resistant type heating was the cause of the fire, time will tell.
Was the fire wind driven ? I can see from the photos the fire started at the land end of the dock and spread outward.
Make sure you have smoke detectors with fresh batteries, I personally use three on a 36’. boat.

 

[BandB]

As Ray mentioned this marina is a covered fixed dock with wood structure and decking. I wintered there while on the loop. It was not uncommon to have power station fires and tripped breakers. I believe it was built and wired for small boat use. I would not be surprised if cold weather and resistant type heating was the cause of the fire time will tell.
Make sure you have smoke detectors with fresh batteries, I personally use three on a 36’. boat.

Wifey B: McCoy would prosecute based on Depraved Indifference. I'm not saying that to be funny either because nothing funny about this. Saying it as that describes it if power station fires and tripped breakers were common. Likely one of two causes at that time of night, heaters or smoking. (Not kitchen likely at 12:30 AM). I could never sleep on a boat there.

As a Jenny come lately to being a business person, I now understand the struggle between regulating an older business to safety and knowing they can't afford to do it and it would put them out of business. There has to be some compromise but we shouldn't just ignore it. Everytime there's a marina fire we need to look at other marinas. I've been to Guntersville and Alred. I honestly don't know what we do about older marinas that are lacking in safety.

 

[rgano]

Rich,


Don't think there were any boats side tied to the dock. Pretty sure all were in covered slips - some smaller boats on lifts. Bigger live aboard house boats likely heavily secured - we've had some unusually high winds last few weeks. Likely all gassers.


This is one reason why I bought a diesel.

A friend was asleep on his boat many years back when a boat in his marina burned down. He never woke up to the commotion and theorizes most of the casualties in this fire like did not either.

 

[rgano]

That must be some "knife" you have which will cut through 5/8" nylon in one pull! I have a very sharp hatchet which will handle everything including power cables which normally secures a boat to a pier. It can be amazing how five seconds per line including time to move from one to the next can suddenly be the half minute you did not have in the first place.

 

[Capitaine R]

50F water...that will suck the life right out of you. Horrible.

Yes that had to be a jolt to all the organs in the body but if you live thru it, It is much better than 3 degree burns over a large portion of your body, ask me how I know.

 

[rslifkin]

The point about cutting power lines loose is a good one. My lines are normally loops over cleats at the boat end, so throwing them off is fast, especially with 2 of us. Power lines would take more time.

 

[angus99]

Just to note, TVA approves, through its 26a permitting process, the initial construction of docks and other structures at the shoreline and may require builders to demonstrate that they intend to comply with applicable codes and regulations before approving plans to build. The agency’s main interest is insuring that structures conform to shoreline/reservoir development master plans and that they are designed to meet environmental requirements for such things as discharges into waterways and erosion control. TVA also limits the size of residential docks and ensure that structures don’t pose a threat to navigation. Unless things have changed in recent years, TVA has no authority over electrical or other code compliance once a structure is built and does not inspect for ongoing compliance.

 

[O C Diver]

Wifey B
As a Jenny come lately to being a business person, I now understand the struggle between regulating an older business to safety and knowing they can't afford to do it and it would put them out of business. There has to be some compromise but we shouldn't just ignore it. Everytime there's a marina fire we need to look at other marinas. I've been to Guntersville and Alred. I honestly don't know what we do about older marinas that are lacking in safety.

This really seems like an area where insurance companies should come into play. Most wiring codes tend to grandfather in existing rules while only making upgrades required when new equipment is installed. It would seem to me that this is an area where insurance companies can push the new standards by increasing premiums or denying coverage. With all the publicity surrounding freshwater electrocution and need for the more sensitive GFI breakers on power pedestals, you would think insurance companies would be proactive in requiring updated shore power systems and inspecting their insured marinas.

Ted