Fire

[Steve DAntonio]

Thank you Steve for a timely reminder to get it right. On purchasing my present boat 2 years ago, on checking the fire extinguishers, found they were all original, dated 1996, I am the 4th owner, how many surveys had the boat had, and no one saw they were well past there use by dates. Yes I have replaced them with new plus extras. Also no smoke or Co alarms installed, but now fitted.

I marvel that new boats are still being sold without smoke alarms, it's a mystery to me as to why anyone would take this risk.

As for fire extinguishers being out of date, I encounter it all too often. I inspected a boat a few years ago, second owner, the engine room bottle was discharged, fully, the vial was gone so it had been set off. The owner had the boat for four years, he was the second owner. The fire control panel was in override, he said it was that way when he bought the boat and he never touched it, so he bought it with an empty bottle, it had a survey, and had been worked on by who knows how many techs in that time. Sigh.

(Homeward bound from Malaysia)

 

[boatpoker]

I'm generally a believer in ABYC however I believe we need actual laws regarding some of the installations I see.

In this one the two metal boxes are packed with LiPo cells bought on ebay then wired together by the owner. These in turn were connected to two (there is another not in the photo) Optima AGM batteries with twisted wire and insulated with rigging tape. No BMS was fitted

It should be illegal for amateur electricians to play with this stuff.

 

[ssobol]

I'm generally a believer in ABYC however I believe we need actual laws regarding some of the installations I see.
...
It should be illegal for amateur electricians to play with this stuff.

Then you'd probably need to have laws about being a qualified electrician to work on automobiles and RVs. Boats and RVs are often considered to be in the same classification.

For autos you can take various courses and get some qualifications (e.g. ASE). These may be necessary to get a job with some company, but they are not legal requirements to be a mechanic (sort of like being a MS network engineer).

To work on electrical systems on aircraft you need an airframe mechanics license, but not any sort of specific electrician qualification.

You'd also need some sort of code enforcement. When a boat is built you could have some sort of inspection to get an occupancy or operating permit. But after the initial inspection, there is no enforcement of the ABYC codes of owner/operator mods unless you have periodic inspections (e.g. annual or bi-annual inspections). I suppose you could require a certificate of inspection in order to renew your boat registration each time. Inspecting a small baot wouldn't be that expensive, but an inspection of a 50' trawler would take a few hours and cost a few hundred bucks. Implementing such a system would go over very well.

Commercial operators do have periodic inspections. But these are more about safety equipment than anything else. Recreational can be inspected at any time, but these are also safety inspections. They look for things like are there covers on the battery terminals, but none of the CG inspectors are electricians nor do they spend any time looking at the boat wiring.

 

[BandB]

If all boats were required to be built to Classification standards, you'd have far fewer of these issues, but then would you be able to afford any small boats?

I can argue both ways. Today it does cost significantly more. However, once those standards become routine with a builder, much of the added cost goes away. I've observed a builder who builds a lot of boats that are classed under multiple classification societies. They don't do a unique build now, but all their boats are built using the same methods and meeting the same standards.

What is most annoying is all the little things they cut corners on. Things that would add so little to the cost of the build, but they know they can get by without doing. I've noticed recently in conversations with captains I know that both British builders are doing much the same, Princess and Sunseeker. They've competing with each other but, as part of that, they're cutting many of the same corners. One example using the same very poor sea strainers for their A/C's. The baskets have pin holes that would be more appropriate for swimming pools than A/C strainers. The locations require disassembly of mattresses and hatches and more hatches. He encountered failure on a new Princess and a new Sunseeker within the first two months of use. They're getting the strainers from the same supplier.

Boats are delivered to customers that aren't legal to put on the water as they don't have basic safety equipment.

All this contributes to a very mixed starting point, only made worse by amateur electricians taking over post delivery.

It is my contention that if a builder seriously set out to do things right to a higher standard that then they'd raise their standards on all boats they build, not just a select few.

 

[ancora]

Why should DIYers be penalized for doing their own work ?( usually a whole lot better than some "technician" and I use the word loosely) How many times right here on this forum have we read stories of repair and installation "experts" who screwed the boat owner six ways to Sunday? My 31 year old Taiwan built trawler is about as un-ABYC as it can be, but it works for me.

 

[Delfin]

Lithium house batteries are generally LiFeP04 (Lithium Iron Phosphate), not standard Lithium ion. If you research the difference, you will find that LiFeP04 are much safer than other Lithium batteries.

And arguably, LFP is safer than lead acid. Unless you identify the specific chemistry of the "lithium ion" batteries you are talking about, comments about safety are pretty meaningless.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

I'm generally a believer in ABYC however I believe we need actual laws regarding some of the installations I see.

In this one the two metal boxes are packed with LiPo cells bought on ebay then wired together by the owner. These in turn were connected to two (there is another not in the photo) Optima AGM batteries with twisted wire and insulated with rigging tape. No BMS was fitted

It should be illegal for amateur electricians to play with this stuff.

This was a DIY project, so no law would have prevented this sort of scenario, as it wasn't installed by the boat builder or an industry professional. You can't legislate against stupidity.

 

[Comodave]

The Darwin Theory will eventually get them, just hope they don’t take out others when they go...

 

[catalinajack]

Based on this topic, I wascreminded that I did not have any detectors aboard. I just purchased five wireless interconnected First Alert devices, one CO/smoke and four smoke detectors. Installed and programmed all five in less than an hour. Shouls have done so years ago.

 

[Shrew]

Something I like to do is place a fire extinguisher opposite or adjacent to the galley. I see folks mount them in the galley, which potentially forces you to reach through the galley fire to get the extinguisher.

Your natural tendency is to turn away from the fire and towards an exit. THAT is where you'll find my fire extinguisher. Across from the galley (1.5 steps away) directly beside the lower helm door. I have another one right beside the slider into the salon, directly above the engine hatches.

I'm in the process of buying and installing one in each stateroom, the flybridge and the cockpit.

I already replaced all my hard wired CO detectors (1 salon, 1 guest berth, 1 master berth) with new ones this spring. I also installed a hardwired smoke detector in the salon this spring.

 

[ssobol]

This was a DIY project, so no law would have prevented this sort of scenario, as it wasn't installed by the boat builder or an industry professional. You can't legislate against stupidity.

Sure you could. Inspection before insurance is offered. Recurrent inspections when renewing insurance. Cost of inspection built into the premiums.

If it weren't for the nanny state, stupidity would work its way out of the gene pool. Might be some collateral damage though.

 

[psneeld]

we are already there....insurance often refers to ABYC standards and expects compliance or a good explanation why you can't comply.

 

[ssobol]

we are already there....insurance often refers to ABYC standards and expects compliance or a good explanation why you can't comply.

But there doesn't seem to be an actual inspection or recurring inspections to verify that you are in or stay in compliance. Certainly not on my boat.

 

[psneeld]

Just like all cars don't have breathalyzers to start.

If you manage to meet and fall out of compliance every couple of years...and are willing to have denoie claims....good luck.

Nanny states don't work for long....

 

[BandB]

But there doesn't seem to be an actual inspection or recurring inspections to verify that you are in or stay in compliance. Certainly not on my boat.

There are on Classed boats. Every five years, very extensive. Costly. I don't think the average person would want to pay that on the average boat. We've also found on commercial vessels that even those surveys still let some things through that are not desirable.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

Sure you could. Inspection before insurance is offered. Recurrent inspections when renewing insurance. Cost of inspection built into the premiums.

If it weren't for the nanny state, stupidity would work its way out of the gene pool. Might be some collateral damage though.

Agreed, insurance could drive this, however, insurance is a private contract between boat owner and insurer, it is not mandated by law.