Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 10-02-2017, 01:30 PM   #21
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 19,313
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyDawg86 View Post
I do. I have been involved in conversations that went EXACTLY like that.
I don't doubt that you have. However, in this case they weren't even paying attention. The pressure came from worry over a job in Alaska and they didn't need to say anything to stress that. They had everyone in a waiting position. Cause problems and you wouldn't likely get a job in Alaska.
__________________
Advertisement

BandB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2017, 02:32 PM   #22
Guru
 
Benthic2's Avatar
 
City: Boston Area
Country: United States
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,667
The captain should have been more on top of things and so I agree that his actions were criminal.

Regarding the company, it is more than just the implied pressure at the time of sailing. It is the history of the company and the culture it creates. I believe this captain was disciplined before for altering a route around bad weather and it cost a few days sailing time. He was also being considered for a promotion and I'm sure that impacted his decision. In many non maritime lawsuits if the culture can be proven to be an underlying factor, the company is found liable. This is usually in a civil suit however, rather than a criminal suit. In a sexual harrassment suit for instance the court considers not just the overt act of some misogynist, but also the fact that there may be posters of girls on the working floor, or the workers to to a strip club every Friday, and so on. Culture is very hard to define so it can be difficult to be held accountable when it is a negative factor on employee well being.

There is also the maintenance of the ship that the company is responsible for. Do they just do what is needed to pass inspections, and only when forced into it, or do they back up their safety officers and stay on top of things that need fixing before inspections are failed. Didn't things start to go bad because the engine failed ? And I thought some hatch covers were missing latches or something along those lines.

Unless it costs TOTE a significant money it will continue to be more profitable for them to keep doing business as usual.
__________________

Benthic2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2017, 02:58 PM   #23
Senior Member
 
nodestination's Avatar
 
City: Green Cove Springs,FL
Country: usa
Vessel Name: No Destination
Vessel Model: 1972 GulfStar Trawler 36
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 199
I lost 2 jobs and a lot of money when I refuse to drive a truck in unsafe condition I did not hesitate. The problem I see is the info provided to that captain. The direction of the storm had 2 models US and European. The US model shows that the storm will not be on the way, but EU shows correct track. I have been tracking a hurricanes for some time ( I live in Florida) and look to me that the EU model shows correct path. I believe that captain decision was base on hurricane tracking model that was wrong at that time.
nodestination is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2017, 03:54 PM   #24
Technical Guru
 
Ski in NC's Avatar
 
City: Wilmington, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Louisa
Vessel Model: Custom Built 38
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 5,874
You can't put much faith in hurricane predictions. Turns out the EU model was better, but it could have been wrong also. The storm was doing strange motions, not the typical curves we are so used to seeing. A prudent master would give it wide berth, he did not.

An old ship has unknown weaknesses. Suspected corroded ventilation ducts and other hidden weaknesses shipped water in conditions it normally did not venture into. Run an old ship like that and best to avoid storms.
Ski in NC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2017, 04:30 PM   #25
Senior Member
 
SaltyDawg86's Avatar
 
City: Carrollton, Va
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 457
Well I've gotten some good laughs, but I'm going to go ahead and bow out this thread before I say some unpopular things.
SaltyDawg86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2017, 05:01 PM   #26
Guru
 
Fletcher500's Avatar
 
City: San Diego
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Helmsman 4304
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,419
In general, I try to avoid making comments about subjects I am not familiar with. Having been away from commercial tankers for 30 years, I don't know first hand what type of pressures they are under.

I will say there is a big difference between a 750 ft ship getting to port in time, as opposed to a truck, or a smaller boat and the economics involved at the corporate office.

From what I have read over the years and talking to ex class mates who still sail, the cargo and tanker crews do get this pressure, and Salt who is an unlimited tonnage officer backs that up. Yes, it is his opinion, but also the world he lives in.

The Gulf rig blowout, explosion, and major spill involved a scenario of events in which corporate put pressure on the local rig operators to continue drilling even though there were many red flags leading up to the blowout preventer failure. If you have not read it, Fire on the Horizon, by the G Captain website creator is worth reading.
Fletcher500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2017, 06:31 PM   #27
Guru
 
Blissboat's Avatar
 
City: Jacksonville Beach, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Shallow Minded
Vessel Model: Shoal Cat
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 584
Fletcher500 wrote, "If you have not read it, Fire on the Horizon, by the G Captain website creator is worth reading."

Second that recommendation.
__________________
"Less judgment than wit is more sail than ballast. Yet it must be confessed that wit give an edge to sense, and recommends it extremely." ~ William Penn
Blissboat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2017, 06:58 PM   #28
Guru
 
Blissboat's Avatar
 
City: Jacksonville Beach, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Shallow Minded
Vessel Model: Shoal Cat
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 584
A few observations:

Until I read the complete transcript from the El Faro's bridge voice recorder, I was inclined to defend the captain. He had inadequate weather data, the storm behaved unpredictably, etc., etc. But reading his words in context allowed me to better see that he was behaving with a certain arrogance that, in the event, turned out to be reckless. Accusations of the captain's negligence are justified, I am sorry to say.

I have worked as a skipper for a maritime corporation, and have owned commercial vessels for which I hired and supervised licensed captains. In both positions, everyone understood that the job meant running trips efficiently and on-time. Fail to do that once or twice, and the heat comes on. Miss your schedule any more than that, and an owner has to consider whether it's time to make a change. Everyone gets that. But - and this is a big but - a boat doesn't do its owner any good if it's damaged or sunk, and dead or injured passengers or crew are a major-league headache. IOW, when I sent a captain out with my boat, yeah, I wanted them back on time, but above all, I wanted them back. Same with my employers, who trusted me with total responsibility for their multi-million dollar capital investments, and all the souls on board.

Maybe TOTE's corporate culture lacked enough checks and balances, but I'm not confident that we can see clearly into the hearts of people. Corporations are not people [the U.S. Supreme Court in Northwestern Nat Life Ins. Co. v. Riggs (203 U.S. 243 (1906)) notwithstanding], so they have only as much conscience and integrity as the people who run them. I think that the people of TOTE, and the El Faro's skipper, were more surprised and crushed by what happened than anyone, other than the crew's loved ones.

Finally, I'll reiterate what I've posted here before on the subject of hurricane predictions. As a direct result of the El Faro, the NTSB issued a public safety alert, here: https://www.ntsb.gov/safety/safety-a...nts/SA-065.pdf reminding mariners where to go for the best data on tropical storm forecasts. Bottom line: if a developing or approaching tropical weather system affects your interests, pay close attention to the NWS's “Tropical Cyclone Discussion" page. It is unavailable anywhere else. It's what the name says it is, a recital of the facts and assumptions in play as forecasters practice their art. Each named or numbered tropical system has its own discussion page. It always makes for interesting, and sometimes vital reading.
__________________
"Less judgment than wit is more sail than ballast. Yet it must be confessed that wit give an edge to sense, and recommends it extremely." ~ William Penn
Blissboat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2017, 07:49 PM   #29
Senior Member
 
City: Ft. Myers, FL
Vessel Name: Hannah Jane
Vessel Model: 2000 Grand Banks 42 Classic
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 102
I second the comment about reading the transcript. I read it too and agree that it can explain some of the context of what happened. From my reading, it seemed to me that the Captain mis-read the hurricane's direction and intensity because of where he was getting his information.

If you're really interested in what happened, I strongly recommend that you read the transcript and start at the beginning. Google it online.
FBoykin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2017, 12:14 AM   #30
Veteran Member
 
Bill & Stella's Avatar
 
City: Zhuhai
Country: China
Vessel Name: SEZ HU
Vessel Model: Buehler 38' COOT
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 59
Questions for experts:

If, after the ship lost power but the generators were still running, would fully lowering both bow anchors and blocking the rudder amidships keep the bow pointed into the waves?

Would stern-way speed be acceptable?
Bill & Stella is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2017, 01:17 PM   #31
Guru
 
City: Great Lakes
Country: USA
Vessel Model: OA 440
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 613
What? No discussion about the vast amount of data gained from the multi million dollar boon doggle to retrieve the data recorder? A total bust just like a few here predicted. Well, I guess it will play well in the upcoming movie. Somebody will profit, but it won't be the taxpayer.
Rufus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2017, 01:36 PM   #32
Senior Member
 
SaltyDawg86's Avatar
 
City: Carrollton, Va
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 457
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufus View Post
What? No discussion about the vast amount of data gained from the multi million dollar boon doggle to retrieve the data recorder? A total bust just like a few here predicted. Well, I guess it will play well in the upcoming movie. Somebody will profit, but it won't be the taxpayer.

Lives were lost and the only thing that's worse than that is the CG isn't doing anything to protect the mariner.
SaltyDawg86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2017, 01:48 PM   #33
Guru
 
Lepke's Avatar
 
City: Between Oregon and Alaska
Country: US
Vessel Name: Charlie Harper
Vessel Model: Wheeler Shipyard 83'
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,034
The captain was probably under pressure from Tote to meet port dates. How much pressure would determine if Tote is criminally responsible. The captain went right into the hurricane path that even novice captains could foresee.
No vessel is safe in a hurricane, even well outside the eye. He had rolling cargo, while secured, wasn't secured for the waves of a hurricane. He killed his own crew.
The CG is burdened to investigate events that result in major damage, sinkings and loss of life. While I also didn't care for the expense of recovering the black boxes, those boxes were the only witnesses. The CG is just doing their job.
Lepke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2017, 01:58 PM   #34
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: AICW
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 22,192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufus View Post
What? No discussion about the vast amount of data gained from the multi million dollar boon doggle to retrieve the data recorder? A total bust just like a few here predicted. Well, I guess it will play well in the upcoming movie. Somebody will profit, but it won't be the taxpayer.
You never know till you retrieve it.

Sure you can assume and we know how tbat old expression ends....

Some guessed right this time ....but recorders are pretty well universal in transportation operating cockpits/ bridges/control stations because what is obvious to a few monday morning quarterbacks is often wrong or only a piece of professional accident investigation.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2017, 02:11 PM   #35
Guru
 
City: Great Lakes
Country: USA
Vessel Model: OA 440
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 613
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyDawg86 View Post
Go screw yourself....

Lives were lost and the only thing that's worse than that is the CG isn't doing anything to protect the mariner.
That from the resident union rep. I don't doubt for one second that you had many contentious encounters with management.
Rufus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2017, 02:22 PM   #36
Guru
 
City: Great Lakes
Country: USA
Vessel Model: OA 440
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 613
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
You never know till you retrieve it.

Sure you can assume and we know how tbat old expression ends....

Some guessed right this time ....but recorders are pretty well universal in transportation operating cockpits/ bridges/control stations because what is obvious to a few monday morning quarterbacks is often wrong or only a piece of professional accident investigation.

Oh, but the professionals most certainly did know in this case. It's a simple fact that the recorder was as rudimentary as it gets. I've been involved with many aircraft accident investigations. Everything of consequence (what's in the report) was established before the ship went down. The black boxes witnessed nothing not already known, and any investigator who looked at what could possibly be found on that recorder knew it. This was a politically motivated waste instigated by uniformed hysteria to appease a vocal minority. The experts decision not to retrieve the box was reversed by politics. Criminal.
Rufus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2017, 02:40 PM   #37
Senior Member
 
SaltyDawg86's Avatar
 
City: Carrollton, Va
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 457
Go cry your River elsewhere.
SaltyDawg86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2017, 03:37 PM   #38
Guru
 
City: Fairport, NY and Palm Coast, FL
Country: United States
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,879
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufus View Post
Oh, but the professionals most certainly did know in this case. It's a simple fact that the recorder was as rudimentary as it gets. I've been involved with many aircraft accident investigations. Everything of consequence (what's in the report) was established before the ship went down. The black boxes witnessed nothing not already known, and any investigator who looked at what could possibly be found on that recorder knew it. This was a politically motivated waste instigated by uniformed hysteria to appease a vocal minority. The experts decision not to retrieve the box was reversed by politics. Criminal.
My only input is that human factors can play a big part. Yes, we knew the weather data, we knew already the ships track, we knew the essence of the radio traffic; but we didn't know until the transcripts were raised is what was in the captains head, the exact workload, who was on the bridge; much of which can be pertinent to the accident investigation.
It is a shame that the pointy end of blame is usually on the wrong end of the arrow.
diver dave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2017, 03:41 PM   #39
Guru
 
City: Great Lakes
Country: USA
Vessel Model: OA 440
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 613
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyDawg86 View Post
Go cry your River elsewhere.
I'm not the one whining about the report results. I believe the Coast Guard got it exactly right.
Rufus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2017, 04:12 PM   #40
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: AICW
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 22,192
I have been involved with aircraft and vessel accident investigations also , more so from a reviewing level to make sure they were thorough.

Luckily I saw only investigations that went to great lengths to make sure the truth was known.

I dont remember who said going after the box was a waste of time...anyone have the names or links?
__________________

psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:32 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012
×