Engines for my 42' Hatteras LRC

[Muriel 42LRC322]

Dear Forum;

I have to decide now on repower or rebuild my noisy DD 4-53 engines... so reliable I agree.

I am happy to share my experience and receive all comments.

My engine room is empty now since last week !

I have 3 choices :

1 - I rebuild my DD 4-53 engines.
2 - Change for John Deere 4045TFM 125hp engines common rail.
3 - Change for Beta Marine 105T (Kubota basis) engines.

The John Deere is more sophisticated...
The Beta is simple like the DD... You can repair everywhere.

Both of them won't be counter rotative, neither mirrored !!!

I am not sure to be able to keep my gear boxes also... an additional potential cost here. Can the BW be "reversed" and do they have the same ratio if they do.

The major advantage I will have by changing my engines (that work fine I recognize) is with noise. In Europe, we consider silence as luxury.

The issue by changing is price side and to have the right person to do a good job which is VERY important.

I am in the middle of all this... and the potential additional cost of new gear boxes if the BW can't be (for one of them) reversed.

Please any comment is very very welcome.

Muriel
Muriel 42LRC322 is online now

 

[O C Diver]

I have a JD 4045TFM75 tier 2 and am very happy with it (5,000 hours now). Probably not going to be able to use the transmissions as the RPM of the engines is going to be very different.

Ted

 

[Muriel 42LRC322]

Many thanks for your comments.... With the 4045TFM125 I am fine on this.... Do you have a common rail version or mechanical ?

 

[twistedtree]

I would lean towards the 4045 because I know they are well proven as marine engines. The Kubota base engines in the Beta are great (I have many in various land applications), so it's all about the marinization, and I just have less experience with Beta compared to Deere.


I wouldn't be afraid of common rail. You aren't going to be fixing a Kubota injection pump either while bobbing at anchor. Nor will you be tearing apart a mechanical governor. In both cases you will be sending it out to a specialist shop, or buying new.


One thing to compare is the duty cycle rating for each engine. Deere uses an M1, M2, M3, M4 rating system. M1 is continuous full power operation, 24x7x365, unlimited hours per year. Then it goes down from there with smaller and smaller portion of run time at max power, and annual hour limits. Beta uses "Recreational" and "Commercial", but I can't find definitions. On first blush, it looks like the Deere makes full HP at a lower RPM which means less noise. And since it's a higher HP, it will run even slower at lower cruise speeds. I would think that's of value to you. BTW, what is the HP rating on the DDs?



Under no circumstances would I rebuild the DD. They were a mechanical marvel 70-80 years ago, but have long passed their "best used by" date for any refit.


Oh, and don't skimp on the mufflers for whatever new engines you pick.

 

[Muriel 42LRC322]

RPMs

I do thank you again...

The DD are 112hp at 2500 rpm
The JD are 125hp at 2500 rpm
The Beta 105T is 98hp at 2600 rpm. The 115 is not complying with anti pollution regulations....

Right at low rpms I will be fine with the JD...
The BW Gear box can maybe be reversed... I have to confirm this and the ratio in reverse.

 

[twistedtree]

Is the JD rating M1? I’m guessing it is since my turbo 4045 is 160HP M1.

 

[Muriel 42LRC322]

Thank you again... The ones I am talking with the JD dealer is the M2 which is supposed to be more than enough for my use.

 

[O C Diver]

Many thanks for your comments.... With the 4045TFM125 I am fine on this.... Do you have a common rail version or mechanical ?

Mine is mechanically injected electronically (computer) controlled. It's not common rail.

Ted

 

[sunchaser]

List each alternative including not only costs for engine purchase but transmissions, mounts, fuel system, electrical and exhaust runs. Then product support for your cruising grounds. A mechanical Vs electronic engine comparison Pro's and cons is important.

A good friend with a Nordhavn 41 really likes his twin Betas. Nordhavn likes them too if you read their website. This said, which engine wifi provide "easy" horsepower to put the 42's hull in its sweet spot for speed given the semi displacement design?

Being in France have you tossed around the notion of Perkins Sabre? They make a reliable 4 cylinder diesel to compete with your two others especially with JD on the lower RPM side.

 

[Muriel 42LRC322]

I thank you for these comments. Yes I talked to Nordhavn and that's what pushed me in investigating with them also. The 115T would have been the best. France (I am French flag) is complicated with anti pollution regulations and they only allow me the 105T. The Hatteras is Heavy and full displacement.... To have more power at less rpms with the JD looked to me a bonus. At this point they all offer me the approximately same quotation. I am not surprised...

 

[Pete Meisinger]

You are looking at so much expense you must really love your "Hattie". Although you don't say the year of your boat it must be older if it needs new engines. I'm sure you are looking north of $100,000, perhaps even $200,000.

Have you considered replacing the boat ?

pete

 

[Muriel 42LRC322]

That's a good point.... Really... I don't see any trawler on the market that I find as well built and thought than the Hatteras 42'LRC. Happy Times is 1979. Yes new engines will have a cost... I am actually changing all old equipments (generator, A/C) but being in the business and taking time I should end with a total of... 90.000 Euros If I rebuild my DD working... 130.000 if I change the engines. Does it worth ? I think yes because Fiberglass and stainless steel will survive me... new engines and new generator and... Does noise justify this price gap ??? It is of course different for all of us. It is a lot for just noise... That's why I am also asking you all your comments ! It will be second home to travel when I'll be retired !!!

 

[sunchaser]

You are looking at so much expense you must really love your "Hattie". Although you don't say the year of your boat it must be older if it needs new engines. I'm sure you are looking north of $100,000, perhaps even $200,000.

Have you considered replacing the boat ?

pete

The Hatts are just so solid and well built. Thus a great candidate for some new $ the OP seems willing to spend. Repowering seems a good path forward provided cost estimates and planning are well done with suitable contingency applied.

The. Question though is about engines. There are some good choices and thinking as the OP has noted. Here’s hoping he keeps us in the loop.

 

[Xlantic]

Muriel, which model of Borg Warner are your transmissions? I changed my engines this summer and had to replace the transmissions (Warner Gear AS5-73CR) as they could not be run in reverse for extended periods of time. In any case, I am glad I did as the cost of the gear boxes is not that high in the grand scheme of things and what a better a time to replace them than when you change the engines?

I replaced my obsolete GM Toro-Flo engines with rebuilt Cummins 6B naturals (120 hp). Each engine plus transmission (Twin Disc Technodrive 170) cost me €13k plus VAT from a Cummins dealer here in Spain.

 

[Crux]

The DD noise....whine/song...is actually air intake noise from the blower.....google up 'roots air pump'.

So, before ruling our your option #1 rebuild, maybe experiment with modern 'sound attenuation' technology on one engine intake and see what you think.

Sound control is mostly about changing the direction the sound source must take by 2 or more 90deg turns, before it reaches open air. So, maybe a snorkel over to a 'sound box' with such baffeling would be an inexpensive test?

Take a look st Soundown for their sound deadening technology. Maybe something off the shelf available, box and all?

 

[fgarriso]

All DD two stroke have blower wine. If you rebuild them they will still wine. I have two 6V71-DD and they do. Sound-down panels help, but it is just the nature of the beast.

 

[Ken E.]

Muriel, which model of Borg Warner are your transmissions? I changed my engines this summer and had to replace the transmissions (Warner Gear AS5-73CR) as they could not be run in reverse for extended periods of time. In any case, I am glad I did as the cost of the gear boxes is not that high in the grand scheme of things and what a better a time to replace them than when you change the engines?

I replaced my obsolete GM Toro-Flo engines with rebuilt Cummins 6B naturals (120 hp). Each engine plus transmission (Twin Disc Technodrive 170) cost me €13k plus VAT from a Cummins dealer here in Spain.

In a Hatteras repower, I removed DD 8v71s and repowered with Cummins 6bt factory remanufactured engines, 'Remans', and new TD gears. The remans come with new-engine warranties and cost significantly less than new engines. You might add Cummins to your list of potential choices. I've been very happy with mine.

 

[Lepke]

I'd overhaul the DDs. Then they'll probably outlast the other engines you're considering.
If the other's have electronics then as they age they become unreliable.
In the US an engine kit, gaskets, blower kit, head rebuild, injector rebuild would cost about $3500 per engine, A competent mechanic to overhaul less than $10,000 per engine. A couple years ago a few thousand less. If they were my engines, I'd do the work and have both done for well under $10,000.

Probably the engines can be rebuilt without removing them. Either jacked up or rolled on their side. They're only 4 cylinder engines.

 

[Crux]

To clarify a bit, my post above is not about walling off the engine with sound panels etc.....rather, just provide a 'muffler' for the intake air.

Take a look below for your in-line style 'silencer' verses the V style housing/ silencer.

The V style offers an easy example of a way to capture intake air and duct it a short way to a true silencer box/muffler.

Perhaps its possible to easily adapt the 8v style housing to your engine?


https://www.tractorparts.com/PDFs/DETROIT_DIESEL_ENGINES_SERIES_53_SERVICE_PT2_477PP.pdf

 

[Greg QS]

something to think about.
You want to dump 90-130 euro into a DD to save the 60 year old gears gears. NUTS the trans are the cheapest part.

It is not worth changing engines if running. once dead you need to consider fuel burn.
DD are bad on fuel. Go to your choice of mechanical engine and save 30% plus in fuel.
I went from dd 871 tt to cummings 6cta mechanical and saved 30% ,electronic engines would have gave me 40 % . With diesels at 6$ a gallon its Silly to rebuild 60 year old tec.

My buddy has a hat with dd 58 long range curser gets 3/4 mpg at hull speed. I have a 61 20k heaver with qusm 11 cummings full electronic and get 1.5 mpg at same speed. That's 2 x the milage or 100% better fuel milage!

I went to Florida 1000 gal of fuel, He burned 2000 gal. hum $6ooo difference in fuel on one way of 1 trip!! Down and back 12000 difference. OMG! I just paid for the transmissions.

Nothing lasts for ever. Rebuilds don't last. mainly because there not fully re built. maybe the internals are new but the rest is old and the old parts fail in time and take out the engine. Water pumps, blowers, valve trains, timing gears etc,

basically 2 thoughts here.
1 keep it cheap and get it running and hope for the best . and hopefully not do it again before moving on.
2 do it right ad save fuel and have an investment in a vessel with you can bank on in the future.

Me personally I will would not consider a vessel with DD . Weather rebuilt or not. Nothing lasts for ever . You cannot make old new. Anything with a DD is prime for failure. Sorry Guys.

I made the mistake of buying a boat with a DD and it blew up 2 years in, My friend Steve the same thing, John the same. The mechanic shop at my marina makes his living on tearing or rebuilding 5-10 boats a year with DD . The engines were good for there time, but there time is over.

One more thing. You can put anything in that old boat whether or not it has a tier rating. The DD were so dirty any other engine will be cleaner and more environmental friendly than a DD. As long as it is better than the DD you can put it in without any epa issues.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[hollywood8118]

I am in the rebuild them camp. Great engines, real work horses. If the sound is a issue.. rebuild them.. buy some great Bose noise cancelling headgear .. and $ 5000 of really fine wine and toast your self on your bank account that is $ 80,000 richer.
My guess is those DD motors will still be running when their replacement motors are replaced when the electronics wear our.

Hollywood

 

[garbler]

If your dead set against running 4-53 Detroits then so be it. But these are really solid reliable power plants and if you swap them out they have good value in the commercial world where they are appreciated. The 53 series Detroits with the exception of the 8-53’s are used in more marine applications than I can mention here. The eight cylinder models had cracked block issues that required a retrofit ‘girdle’ then they were fine. Most of the 53’s were called the screaming 53’s years ago but most were run at like 2250-2500 rpm’s. I’ve worked with many companies that swear these smaller Detroits are easier to sound proof than the bigger 71 and 92 series. It’s about frequency and technical stuff I don’t know.

There are major sound attenuation improvements these days for the 53’s and it’s more than just installing Soundown lead/foam panels. I’ve surveyed quite a few sportfishers with 4 & 6 cylinder 53’s that were insulated with the newer techniques and insulation products and standing over them was surprisingly quiet. No worse than 3208’s or old Cummins.

Anyway these are strong reliable engines that are capable of 15K hours with good fuel economy. Parts are available internationally. If the lower ends are tight and usually are a top end rebuild with cylinder liner kits and recon heads, injectors sized to your need is much cheaper and you’ll probably never run long enough to worry about this again. They won’t pass tier 3 emissions and salesmen will tell you they are dinosaurs but then marketing is about selling new stuff. Gardner engines won’t pass either and they are pre-dinosaur and we all know how unreliable they are

Rick

 

[Crux]

Very nice boat by the way!
What is the nature of problems the engines are having?

 

[Muriel 42LRC322]

Muriel, which model of Borg Warner are your transmissions? I changed my engines this summer and had to replace the transmissions (Warner Gear AS5-73CR) as they could not be run in reverse for extended periods of time. In any case, I am glad I did as the cost of the gear boxes is not that high in the grand scheme of things and what a better a time to replace them than when you change the engines?

I replaced my obsolete GM Toro-Flo engines with rebuilt Cummins 6B naturals (120 hp). Each engine plus transmission (Twin Disc Technodrive 170) cost me €13k plus VAT from a Cummins dealer here in Spain.

I was also investigating on the cummins… 6BTs./… Who is your Cummins Dealer ? My boat is in Alicante. Very interesting thank you ! I do have these engines on another boat.

 

[Muriel 42LRC322]

Very nice boat by the way!
What is the nature of problems the engines are having?

I have no major problem with my DD… but wanted to have a «*as new*» engine room. Noise is the reason pushing me to change as I have been told that there is no way to reduce the noice at the level of the exhausts.

 

[Muriel 42LRC322]

Mine is mechanically injected electronically (computer) controlled. It's not common rail.

Ted

I am working on this option non with twin 4045TFM50. The Gear Boxes are my current issue. I have the BW 2,9:1 72C

 

[Muriel 42LRC322]

Muriel, which model of Borg Warner are your transmissions? I changed my engines this summer and had to replace the transmissions (Warner Gear AS5-73CR) as they could not be run in reverse for extended periods of time. In any case, I am glad I did as the cost of the gear boxes is not that high in the grand scheme of things and what a better a time to replace them than when you change the engines?

I replaced my obsolete GM Toro-Flo engines with rebuilt Cummins 6B naturals (120 hp). Each engine plus transmission (Twin Disc Technodrive 170) cost me €13k plus VAT from a Cummins dealer here in Spain.

I have the BW 2,9:1 72C.
I have to check the reverse possibility and if yes which ratio. It may nit be the same ratio in reverse.

 

[Mako]

OP, what's the displacement of your vessel at 2/3 liquids? 16, maybe 18 tons at most.

It's a displacement cruiser, so unless you're constantly fighting heavy tidal currents, or are actually cruising at SD speeds, then why would you need more than about 80 hp TOTAL between the two engines? Okay, so perhaps you have a lot of windage and like cruising at hull speed continuously, then I'd say up it to maybe 120hp total. That's twin 60's. Kubotas would be better, heavy duty workhorses for that size.

 

[Crux]

Ohhh, so sorry, I was thinking annoying noise inside cabin from DD 'whine'.

Since its exhaust, there is a wide range of wet muffler choices...(your's are thru the transom and not dry stack?)

If wet, your existing mufflers may have lost whatever original internal baffels they had.

Also, if your boat has raw water exhaust bypass, the valves to adjust water volume is a combination of thru exhaust or overboard. Adjustment is made depending on exhaust system back-pressure and left alone.

It may be that over the years someone has fooled with them causing a reduction to exhaust line, creating loss of wet muffler performance, and a hollow exhaust note?

 

[Muriel 42LRC322]

You are right displacement 18tons… and your choice is the one made byNordhavn on the 41’. I like the idea go at low rpms and have margin.