Engine Personalities

[Ben]

Hi All -

We are looking for the next Trawler, but somewhat slowly.
Engines will be 60% of the decision.

Like Lehman and Perkins.
Neutral on Cummins and Cats
Avoiding Volvos, Yanmars.

Not a clue about Detroits (but they seem to last a long time!), or John Deere (my mechanic speaks well of them.)

I currently have gasoline engines and can cruise at a thirsty 27 knots. Want more cabin and don't mind 8 knots.

I see alot of Cummins and want to know more, and maybe am giving Volvo a bad rap, but have heard some things (cost, finicky reliability).

Thanks for any war stories or good info!!

 

[kchace]

Your list is pretty close to mine. I’ve heard good things about John Deere and Lugger but you don’t see them as often as the others.

Ken

 

[tiltrider1]

I feel you are looking at this to generically. Every engine manufacturer has better and worse models. Local support is very important. Finally an engine that is good in a sport fish might be bad for a trawler despite its reputation.

You could have a 375hp CAT 3208 vs a 435hp CAT 3208. Basically the same engine with two different reputations, one good one bad. You could also have a 200hp CAT 3208 but this is a really heavy engine And large for 200hp.

Engine choices need to more specifically matched to the size of boat and application.

 

[bayview]

I prefer Cummins after owning them for a long time. Cheap parts, readily available and service is everywhere. If you wind up with very old engines parts availability may be a issue.
Even within brands there are huge differences in models and success so investigate the specific engine once you find it. You will generally be happier with a popular model that shows up in lots of boat ads because it was successful. e.g. Cummins 6BXX or 6CXXX

Choose an inline engine rather than a V for easy service access and fewer parts.

 

[menzies]

Nothing runs like a Deere!

Based on their tractor engines, will run forever if well maintained. And you will find parts easily.

 

[O C Diver]

I think you need to offer more information on the next boat. Length, speed, and single versus twins would be helpful. As an example, it would be a waste of time to talk about Detroits, Cats, and John Deeres if you're looking at a 32' displacement hull with a single.

Ted

 

[O C Diver]

My preferences are:

First
John Deere
Cummins
Caterpillar
Kabota

Second
Yanmar
Perkins
Lehman

Only if the boat is free
Detroit
Volvo

Ted

 

[jleonard]

Let me be another that says local support is what you'll need to make a good decision.
As an example, when I repowered my old Mainship I wanted to seriously consider a John Deere as there was a local dealer. However, this local dealer only dealt with tractor stuff. They would not even let me buy a marine engine or part thru them. The nearest marine dealer was 6 hours away in Maine.
Obviously they could not be considered.

 

[rsn48]

local support is what you'll need to make a good decision.

Another ++ in agreement with this statement. But if you cruise far and wide from home base, "regional" support is what you are after. I am a gasser kind of guy and when I was choosing engines - Volvo versus Mercury stern drive - I was originally going to go Volvo. Local support where I moor my boat in Comox BC is strong for Volvos, but as you get further out into the hinterlands of cruising grounds Mercury is strongly supported, every second person has a Merc, even if its just a kicker, and Volvo not so much.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Hi All -

We are looking for the next Trawler, but somewhat slowly.
Engines will be 60% of the decision.

Like Lehman and Perkins.
Neutral on Cummins and Cats
Avoiding Volvos, Yanmars.

Not a clue about Detroits (but they seem to last a long time!), or John Deere (my mechanic speaks well of them.)

I currently have gasoline engines and can cruise at a thirsty 27 knots. Want more cabin and don't mind 8 knots.

I see alot of Cummins and want to know more, and maybe am giving Volvo a bad rap, but have heard some things (cost, finicky reliability).

Thanks for any war stories or good info!!

Looks like you’ve been looking at TF as what you’ve listed is what most all think ..... or agree with.

But re personality it’s just a question of the less personality the better. With one exception .. GM.

 

[Comodave]

I would avoid Volvos since I had them in a previous boat. Don’t know about Yanmars since I have never owned one. We had Detroits in a previous boat and they were ok but did use/leak some oil. Haven’t had Cummins in a boat but we do in our motorhome and it is fine.

 

[Steve91T]

We have Lehman 225’s and I like them. I wish they were 5.9 Cummins though. Nothing against the Lehman’s, I just love the old 12 valve Cummins. I have one in my 99 F350. Parts are everywhere and cheap and they can be built to make a ton of hp.

The Lehman is similar that it’s a straight 6 turbo and intercooled engine with mechanical injection. Personally, that’s what I want. I need simple in my life right now and I don’t want to have a computer.

I really think I the boat that you find is more important than the engines though.

 

[mvweebles]

Over generalized thread. You have to be more specific - every engine manufacturer had dogs in their lineup. I'd take a FL 6 cylinder over a perkins 6 cylinder because many of the Perkins 135s had some galvanic isolation issues in their tube stack. But drop down to the 80hp 4-cylinder engines, and I'd take a Perkins 4.236 any day over the FL 4 cylinder. But I'd take a JD 4045 over either because it has fresh water cooled manifold.

I'd prefer to hear first-hand reasons for a recommendation, not just regurgitated hearsay.

Peter

 

[Ben]

So here’s my target range:
38 to 48 trawler. $60-$120K likely cost. Most boats I look at have Cummins, Volvos, Lehman, and Perkins. Faster boats have Cat 3208s. I don’t need fast. I don’t mind a single engine. 8 knots is 8 knots and is mostly based on hull speed anyway.

I see a few boats with twin Lehman 225s. I see a lot of boats with Cummins 6 cylinder engines. Lots of Volvo’s. A smattering of Yanmars. Several Perkins but I get a little concerned about parts availability as the engines age.

So likely I’ll get twin 6s or possibly a single 6. Likely not Caterpillar, which are typically higher speed engines.

When I say “personality” I mean what are the trouble spots to look for (heat exchangers, injectors, oil pumps, whatever - I don’t know...). Especially Cummins since I see a lot of them and know very little. But I suspect parts are plentiful.

 

[caltexflanc]

Having been involved with a variety, I would weight brand of engine about 2-5% in boat our buying decision .... and that's for long defunct brands not made or serviced here anymore at all. Seaworthiness and ergonomics would be the majority factors, followed by the various sorts of creature comforts we personally prefer, then internal and external cosmetic condition. Certainly a bad engine survey could knock a boat out of contention, depending on economics.

 

[menzies]

Frankly when we were looking it was the engine HP that concerned me more than the brand!

 

[Nomad Willy]

With so many boats overpowered I’m not surprised.

With a FD boat I worked extra hard getting the right power as the ideal amount has a very narrow range.
There’s more latitude w SD but some can be as critical as FD.
For example if you actually need planing speeds for short periods but you’d be overpowered you would’t want to be any more overpowered than necessary.

 

[Lou_tribal]

My preferences are:

First
John Deere
Cummins
Caterpillar
Kabota

Second
Yanmar
Perkins
Lehman

Only if the boat is free
Detroit
Volvo

Ted

KUbota over lehman? Not saying they are not good but looking at lehman palmares in ocean crossing...

Again I will ask a question about Volvo that never got answered (I do not own any and no pun intended), what make Volvo engine worst then others? I know that maintenance cost is high and they lock in their business but still they are making damned good engines thatt a look of pros are relying on more than any "pleasure" boater will ever do.

Anyway best is Acadia Gas Engines AD30 but I own the last one apparently

L

 

[FlyWright]

My preferences are:

First
John Deere
Cummins
Caterpillar
Kabota

Second
Yanmar
Perkins
Lehman

Only if the boat is free
Detroit
Volvo

Ted

Mic drop...

 

[menzies]

With so many boats overpowered I’m not surprised.

With a FD boat I worked extra hard getting the right power as the ideal amount has a very narrow range.
There’s more latitude w SD but some can be as critical as FD.
For example if you actually need planing speeds for short periods but you’d be overpowered you would’t want to be any more overpowered than necessary.

When I was looking at 50+ footers I was amazed (and still am with YachtWorld listings) at the HP of a lot of these engines. Who needs 2000hp in a boat that they otherwise advertise as a long distance trawler/cruiser?

 

[boatpoker]

Hundreds of thousands of Perkins 6-354's in generators at the top of the Andes, in North Sea fishing boats, in farm tractors and other equipment all around the world. This one had 20,000 hours on it when this photo was taken.

 

[menzies]

Mic drop...

Thanks for your positive contribution and response to Ted's post

 

[boatpoker]

When I was looking at 50+ footers I was amazed (and still am with YachtWorld listings) at the HP of a lot of these engines. Who needs 2000hp in a boat that they otherwise advertise as a long distance trawler/cruiser?

Benford Fantail 38, 55hp Mitsubishi.
Toronto - Bahamas and return to Toronto at 7.2 knts. ... $1300 for fuel

 

[FlyWright]

Thanks for your positive contribution and response to Ted's post

No problem. Happy to oblige.

 

[Comodave]

KUbota over lehman? Not saying they are not good but looking at lehman palmares in ocean crossing...

Again I will ask a question about Volvo that never got answered (I do not own any and no pun intended), what make Volvo engine worst then others? I know that maintenance cost is high and they lock in their business but still they are making damned good engines thatt a look of pros are relying on more than any "pleasure" boater will ever do.

Anyway best is Acadia Gas Engines AD30 but I own the last one apparently

L

I had Volvos in a previous brand new boat, so the engines were not outdated and no longer supported, but the wait on parts was unacceptable. You could wait months for parts and they were a current model. Unless you have an in with a great supplier you likely will be waiting for parts or waiting to earn enough to pay for the parts. Other than that they are a fine engine. But here where the season is about 6 months you don’t want to wait 2 to 3 months for a critical part.

 

[rgano]

I know the 120 HP (380 cubic inches) Lehman inside and out, and it is a great engine for what you, the OP want. Is it the best? I am not a mechanic; so how would I know? Does that mean other Lehmans like the 225 are also good? I got no answers for you. I know I would never own a boat like you want with one of those noisy Detroits. I have a 315 HP (254 cubic inches) turbo-charged Yanmar based on a Toyota Land Cruiser engine, and it is certainly NOT what you want for the boat you want, but I have liked it here for five years. However, Yanmar makes a bewildering array of engines; correction, they marinize and paint gray paint on a bewildering array of engines seen in tiny sailboat engine spaces in minute horsepower ranges on up to much bigger stuff. Maybe they make a naturally aspirated one that would work for you. In the used boat market, it's more about the previous care than the brand excepting Volvo and Detroits.

 

[BruceK]

You don`t really need turbos in this kind of boating. Lehman 120s & 135s, some Perkins, some Deeres, come without, maybe others too. Turbos add to maintenance. Not a deal breaker factor, but a persuasive one.

 

[Frosty]

You all are scaring me about Volvo. I already had a built up prejudice (have been reading here for years), but some of the boats I've been looking at come with Volvo's TAMD41-PA engines. Initially, I wrote them off.

But some of the cleanest examples had these engines, so I did some more research. Even though I wanted to hate them, really, I couldn't find a lot of complaints from people who had them (this specific model). Sure, some parts are expensive, but it seems there are alternatives for a number of them. I didn't read about anyone having a long wait for parts (not saying you didn't though).

So is this based on past history? Other models? Or is the TAMD41-PA one to stay away from just because it's a Volvo?

(I do get avoiding some engines; I really liked a Grand Banks with a pair of British Leylands, but although they sounded like good engines, parts are very hard to find in the US anymore. If I already had the boat, there are some places that stockpile old parts from torn down engines, but it wasn't something I was going to buy on purpose now.)

 

[Ben]

I know the 120 HP (380 cubic inches) Lehman inside and out, and it is a great engine for what you, the OP want. Is it the best? I am not a mechanic; so how would I know? Does that mean other Lehmans like the 225 are also good? I got no answers for you. I know I would never own a boat like you want with one of those noisy Detroits. I have a 315 HP (254 cubic inches) turbo-charged Yanmar based on a Toyota Land Cruiser engine, and it is certainly NOT what you want for the boat you want, but I have liked it here for five years. However, Yanmar makes a bewildering array of engines; correction, they marinize and paint gray paint on a bewildering array of engines seen in tiny sailboat engine spaces in minute horsepower ranges on up to much bigger stuff. Maybe they make a naturally aspirated one that would work for you. In the used boat market, it's more about the previous care than the brand excepting Volvo and Detroits.

I had an ADC FL 140 380ci in my last boat. Reliable. I liked it a lot.

 

[O C Diver]

KUbota over lehman? Not saying they are not good but looking at lehman palmares in ocean crossing...

Again I will ask a question about Volvo that never got answered (I do not own any and no pun intended), what make Volvo engine worst then others? I know that maintenance cost is high and they lock in their business but still they are making damned good engines thatt a look of pros are relying on more than any "pleasure" boater will ever do.

Anyway best is Acadia Gas Engines AD30 but I own the last one apparently

L

The OP didn't specifically state main propulsion, vessel size or cruising parameters. For smaller displacement hull vessels, the Kabota does a very good job. You may know them better as Beta Marine and some of the Westerbeke models. You will also find them as generator engines for Onan and Phasor among others.

As for kabota over Lehman, really doubt you would see them in the same boat model as one or the other. Lehman falls on my second rating as an old design and most being extremely old with many in the high hours category. Certainly places to get parts and have them rebuilt do exist, but given a choice between a 6 cylinder Lehman or a 6 cylinder non turbo B Cummins, IMO, it's not even close. I would also take the 6BT 210 HP Cummins over the Lehman.

Regarding Volvo, I have been "Date Raped" by them and we won't be going out together ever again. They cost me thousands of dollars in lost business revenue in the '90s with injector pump problems on brand new engines. They were too busy pushing new engines out the door to have replacement pumps available for their warranty claims. They made a conscious decision to focus parts for new builds versus taking care of 6 month old engines. While their parts are ridiculously expensive, there USA inventory is meager on less common parts, and their support on legacy engines can be poor, their warranty parts support was inexcusable. Fock them!

Ted