Enforcement of NDZ Puget Sound

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

So I was at the Seattle Boat Show yesterday. In discussion with a recreation boating advocate group, the subject of the NDZ came up.

Our conversation was around many subjects, but the NDZ and fairly new Canadian Rules seems to be squeezing recreational boating.

Then I was told that the USCG has informed the State of Washington that they would NOT be enforcing the NDZ rules.

The USCG Auxiliary a few booths down stated they did not were not aware of the USCG's position.

WHAT?

 

[psneeld]

If the NDZ is legal, then I am pretty sure the USCG WILL be enforcing the law...maybe not vigorously....but the USCG is famous for enforcing the law even when it isn't popular.


Look at the drug war for example and the extremes it has been taken to in some areas.

 

[twistedtree]

Agreed. I do ‘t believe enforcement agencies get to be selective about what laws to enforce. Doing so would effectively make them law creation or more accurately validation or affirmation entities, and they are not. That said, I think we all know that in practice blind eyes get turned all the time.

 

[rsn48]

When posting buzz words or initials like NDZ, some like me aren't aware of all nomenclature so could the item be first listed in its long form then resort to the shortened form - like NDZ.

 

[C lectric]

Often times enforcement agencies only enforce laws like this when someone does something stupid to bring themselves to the agencies attention.

One example, not boating related, but RV. When I was being tested for my towing endorsement I asked the tester about getting checked. He said the agencies will not likely pull me over UNLESS I do something to bring myself to their attention.

I expect it will be the same here although If you are subject to a boat check they may look at the sanitary system once they are aboard.

 

[Pau Hana]

The NDZ is for WA state to enforce, not federal authorities:


The Regional Administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency, Region 10, has determined that adequate facilities for the safe and sanitary removal and treatment of sewage from all vessels are reasonably available for all marine waters of Washington State inward from the line between New Dungeness Lighthouse and the Discovery Island Lighthouse to the
Canadian border, and fresh waters of Lake Washington, Lake Union, and connecting waters between and to Puget Sound. This notice constitutes EPA's final determination on the petition submitted by the Washington State Department of Ecology on July 21, 2016, pursuant to Section 312(f)(3) of the Clean Water Act, 33 U.S.C. § 1322, for a determination that adequate facilities for the safe and sanitary removal and treatment of sewage from all vessels are reasonably available for the waters of Puget Sound.

This determination does not itself constitute the designation of a no-discharge zone, rather, the State of Washington may now in its discretion
finalize its proposed designation in accordance with state law and take the steps it deems appropriate to implement and enforce the discharge prohibition.


https://www.epa.gov/puget-sound/epas-final-determination-no-discharge-zone-puget-sound

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

When posting buzz words or initials like NDZ, some like me aren't aware of all nomenclature so could the item be first listed in its long form then resort to the shortened form - like NDZ.

You are correct.

NDZ= No Dump Zone

 

[psneeld]

https://www.epa.gov/vessels-marinas-and-ports/vessel-sewage-discharges-no-discharge-zones-ndzs


Who enforces the NDZ requirements?

Under section 312 of the CWA, the U.S. Coast Guard and the state in which the NDZ has been designated may enforce the NDZ requirements. (33 U.S.C. 1322(k) (PDF)(10 pp, 170 K)).


What exactly is enforceable may be up to the stte, but when that is determined...I believe the USCG has the authority to enforce.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

The NDZ is for WA state to enforce, not federal authorities:


The Regional Administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency, Region 10, has determined that adequate facilities for the safe and sanitary removal and treatment of sewage from all vessels are reasonably available for all marine waters of Washington State inward from the line between New Dungeness Lighthouse and the Discovery Island Lighthouse to the
Canadian border, and fresh waters of Lake Washington, Lake Union, and connecting waters between and to Puget Sound. This notice constitutes EPA's final determination on the petition submitted by the Washington State Department of Ecology on July 21, 2016, pursuant to Section 312(f)(3) of the Clean Water Act, 33 U.S.C. § 1322, for a determination that adequate facilities for the safe and sanitary removal and treatment of sewage from all vessels are reasonably available for the waters of Puget Sound.

This determination does not itself constitute the designation of a no-discharge zone, rather, the State of Washington may now in its discretion
finalize its proposed designation in accordance with state law and take the steps it deems appropriate to implement and enforce the discharge prohibition.


https://www.epa.gov/puget-sound/epas-final-determination-no-discharge-zone-puget-sound

Interesting. I believe the State has implemented its regulations. Based on the language above the USCG, at its discretion either can enforce or not enforce.

I do not believe the State of Washington has jurisdiction over the USCG as a Federal Agency, nor does the EPA.

 

[catalinajack]

Twistedtree, I may have to take exception. Many western sherrifs are refusing to enforce certain new gun laws. Law enforcement officers often use discetionary authority when enforcing laws.

Agreed. I do ‘t believe enforcement agencies get to be selective about what laws to enforce. Doing so would effectively make them law creation or more accurately validation or affirmation entities, and they are not. That said, I think we all know that in practice blind eyes get turned all the time.

 

[ksanders]

The NDZ is for WA state to enforce, not federal authorities:


The Regional Administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency, Region 10, has determined that adequate facilities for the safe and sanitary removal and treatment of sewage from all vessels are reasonably available for all marine waters of Washington State inward from the line between New Dungeness Lighthouse and the Discovery Island Lighthouse to the
Canadian border, and fresh waters of Lake Washington, Lake Union, and connecting waters between and to Puget Sound. This notice constitutes EPA's final determination on the petition submitted by the Washington State Department of Ecology on July 21, 2016, pursuant to Section 312(f)(3) of the Clean Water Act, 33 U.S.C. § 1322, for a determination that adequate facilities for the safe and sanitary removal and treatment of sewage from all vessels are reasonably available for the waters of Puget Sound.

This determination does not itself constitute the designation of a no-discharge zone, rather, the State of Washington may now in its discretion
finalize its proposed designation in accordance with state law and take the steps it deems appropriate to implement and enforce the discharge prohibition.


https://www.epa.gov/puget-sound/epas-final-determination-no-discharge-zone-puget-sound

That is Huge!!!

 

[Pau Hana]

Interesting. I believe the State has implemented its regulations. Based on the language above the USCG, at its discretion either can enforce or not enforce.

I do not believe the State of Washington has jurisdiction over the USCG as a Federal Agency, nor does the EPA.

Correct, Tom.

If the EPA mandated the NDZ, then the CG has jurisdiction to enforce implementation. Since the State made the determination in its waterways (even though the waters of Puget Sound are technically navigable, and thus fall under USCG jurisdiction) enforcement falls to the State, and the CG can elect to play or not play.

 

[localboy]

Agreed. I do ‘t believe enforcement agencies get to be selective about what laws to enforce. Doing so would effectively make them law creation or more accurately validation or affirmation entities, and they are not.

Two words: SANCTUARY STATE. WA is one and as such does not enforce nor cooperate with Federal Immigration Laws, as “ordered” by our “esteemed” governor.

 

[localboy]

IMO, the CG have more important things to dedicate their resources to. Now the State of WA...what agency will be tasked to enforce this? Hmmm...only state agency that has the equipment, training etc to enforce “boating” regs is WDFW. But they are fish cops, not poop cops. Quite the conundrum. Seems someone in govt enacted this without actually considering how they would have to implement it.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

IMO, the CG have more important things to dedicate their resources to. Now the State of WA...what agency will be tasked to enforce this? Hmmm...only state agency that has the equipment, training etc to enforce “boating” regs is WDFW. But they are fish cops, not poop cops. Quite the conundrum. Seems someone in govt enacted this without actually considering how they would have to implement it.

I believe any State law enforcement officer has the authority to board your boat and inspect your system. Maybe even the dog catcher.

 

[firehoser75]

Localboy,
"Seems someone in govt enacted this without actually considering how they would have to implement it."
Say it isn't so?? That couldn't happen in real life (on either side of our shared border)

 

[GFC]

So, short of following you as you cruise through Puget Sound and seeing the turds pop up behind your boat, how are any of the water cops going to catch you dumping your holding tank in the sound?

 

[localboy]

Localboy,
"Seems someone in govt enacted this without actually considering how they would have to implement it."
Say it isn't so?? That couldn't happen in real life (on either side of our shared border)

Indeed. There was a tinge of sarcasm in my posting...whether people could see it or not.



I work in "gobment"...in LE actually, and witness it yearly. Some know-nothing imbecile in Olympia comes up with some grand idea and gets a new law passed...feels so warm and fuzzy...without any thought about how it will literally need to be implemented. And in most instances they don't even fund it, either.

 

[localboy]

So, short of following you as you cruise through Puget Sound and seeing the turds pop up behind your boat, how are any of the water cops going to catch you dumping your holding tank in the sound?

Yes....

I believe any State law enforcement officer has the authority to board your boat and inspect your system. Maybe even the dog catcher.

I asked some of our Marine Unit guys. They just started laughing...

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

They wouldn't be able to prove it
They would be looking at lockout devices.

So, short of following you as you cruise through Puget Sound and seeing the turds pop up behind your boat, how are any of the water cops going to catch you dumping your holding tank in the sound?

 

[localboy]

There has been some discussion regarding that scenario. That could constitute a "search" as you noted. And since I have sleeping, eating, cooking and head facilities and can deduct the interest on our boat, one could construe it as a residence. Since the 4th amendment protects citizens from unreasonable searches...does that mean that any LE entity that wants to search our boat for the state of a lockout device would need to obtain a search warrant? Just something to ponder.

 

[psneeld]

Safety and game checks have not been construed as "searches" as their scope is limited.


Right up there with TSA actions or any security/safety actions.


It seems to teeter totter n the courts thoughout our history.

 

[twistedtree]

Twistedtree, I may have to take exception. Many western sherrifs are refusing to enforce certain new gun laws. Law enforcement officers often use discetionary authority when enforcing laws.

I agree they do, but if challenged, I think it would be found illegal.

Enforcement agencies and individuals aren't allowed to pick which laws they agree with, and which they disagree with, and enforce accordingly. That would effectively have them doing the law making. But lots goes on that is illegal, and continues until it's challenged.

 

[twistedtree]

Two words: SANCTUARY STATE. WA is one and as such does not enforce nor cooperate with Federal Immigration Laws, as “ordered” by our “esteemed” governor.

So there might be a loop hole there since those are Federal laws, and I don't think states have an obligation to enforce federal laws. They can't break them, but I think also aren't required to enforce them. That may be the case with the previous comment about local enforcement of new gun laws, if those are federal laws.

 

[twistedtree]

I believe any State law enforcement officer has the authority to board your boat and inspect your system. Maybe even the dog catcher.

Is that so? I thought it was only the USCG that has that authority, and that for state entities they have the same "probable cause" requirement that applies to searching your car.

 

[tiltrider1]

Any officer can stop and search for probable cause. Only the USCG can stop and search with no probable cause. Any fishing equipment in plain sight gives the Wildlife officer grounds to stop and search you. In the Puget Sound NDZ the question is who will do the enforcement and how will they gain access.

 

[MYTraveler]

Twistedtree, I may have to take exception. Many western sherrifs are refusing to enforce certain new gun laws. Law enforcement officers often use discetionary authority when enforcing laws.

Its worse than that. In San Francisco, they won't enforce laws against public urination because homeless have no other choice. Although they didn't say so explicitly (mentioning only urination), the same logic would preclude enforcement of public dedication laws, and there is enough of that going on there that is sure seems like they are not enforcing that either. Similarly, it has become commonplace for meth addicts to grab and run off with laptops from the hands of Starbucks customers. And our state is addressing the problem by building housing for the homeless at prices in excess of $700K per unit. And don't get me started on the state's immigration enforcement policies, although it seems hypocritical to complain about income inequality and that import as much poverty as possible, knowing that there is already a "housing shortage". San Francisco used to be such a great city.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Is that so? I thought it was only the USCG that has that authority, and that for state entities they have the same "probable cause" requirement that applies to searching your car.

And there is the issue. The NDZ is a State initiative not a federal designation, thus the USCG seems to state "Thanks but no thanks."

So it would appear at this point enforcement has been thrown into the State's hands in which "probable cause" is a driving factor.

 

[psneeld]

Not long ago here on TF there were several posts of several states that CLEARLY stated probable cause was not needed.




Here is something on Washington State....


"Enforcement

Washington state park rangers, Fish and Wildlife officers, city police officers, deputy sheriffs, and all other officers with law enforcement authority enforce the boating laws of Washington. The U.S. Coast Guard has enforcement authority on all waters under the jurisdiction of the United States.
Officers have the authority to stop and board your vessel and direct it to a suitable pier or anchorage in order to check for compliance with state and federal laws."


https://www.boat-ed.com/washington/handbook/page/50/Enforcement/


Florida-



"FWC Officers and Stop-and-Board Powers



FWC Officers also have the authority to stop and board vessels which are not being used for fishing. Just being on the water gives an FWC Officer a right to stop you, without cause, to conduct a safety inspection."


https://www.uslawshield.com/fwc-officers-florida-need-know/

 

[ksanders]

Well...

The NDZ designation only applies to folks that have a Marine Treatment System onboard, with the most popular made by Raritan.

It has Always been illegal to discharge untreated waste in the new NDZ area to the best of my knowledge as it is within what the United States claims as it’s 3 mile limit.

Given that, the only people that are going to have ANY issue at all are folks that have their head(s) plumbed directly to a treatment system with no provision for waste storage.

What I have is that my heads are plumbed to a holding tank, and the treatment system is in between the macerator pump and the overboard seacock.

Waste treatment and discharge are controlled by a Raritan Hold N Treat controller, which when in the “no discharge” mode is USCG compliant for use in a EPA designated NDZ.

Regardless of the enforcement mechanism there is zero chance of getting caught if one walks up, turns the key to discharge, then turns it back to no discharge and removes the key.