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Old 11-08-2017, 11:16 AM   #81
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I just read this mornign that Lambogini and MIT are working on an electric car that will use the carbon fiber body panels as capacitors instead of batteries. ( it was on CNN.com)
That is interesting, caps tend to not have enough energy density to be viable for electric cars. Stepping from fact to opinion (So buyyer bewhere) I have little respect for MIT several questionable ethics paper that either with hold facts to drum up interest, or hold a highly questionable originality. So take what MIT says with a grain of salt. Just my 2 cents.
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Old 11-08-2017, 12:40 PM   #82
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Fledgling industries need subsidies to get off the ground. Otherwise, the risk would be too great and no one would be willing to invest in them. At one point, oil exploration was considered high risk, and deemed necessary for the country. Exxon is making enough that it can assume its own risk at this point. Oil subsidies are the biggest example of "crony capitalism" that I can think of. For electric/hybrid cars the approach was to encourage the demand, and let the industry fill it. Certainly the Auto companies can afford the R&D for the technology, but people needed encouragement to buy the cars. People wouldn't buy them because they were an unknown. They would stay an unknown until someone bought them. That's the perfect place for a demand boosting subsidy. It makes sense for tax dollars to be used because I get the benefit if you buy an electric car. Demand for foreign oil and polution go down, and the industry advances. Those are good for everyone.

As for the efficiency of the vehicles...that will improve as the market develops for them, hence the subsidy, and at the very least, it can move the pollution away from the cities and reduce smog and health issues for the majority of the population. (Think of the second hand smoke argument)

Remember that this isn't entirely about efficiency....there is the pollution component as well.

What you are describing is the classic innovators go-to-market challenge, with catchy names like crossing the chasm, and the innovators dilemma. But having started a company from zilch and getting through that transition to a company worth over billion$$, i can assure you that no government assistance is required. We sure had none.
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Old 11-08-2017, 01:25 PM   #83
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What you are describing is the classic innovators go-to-market challenge, with catchy names like crossing the chasm, and the innovators dilemma. But having started a company from zilch and getting through that transition to a company worth over billion$$, i can assure you that no government assistance is required. We sure had none.
+1

Benthic, what Exxon subsidies are you referring to that are not industry wide? The US and Canadian oil producers are competing with world wide socialism inspired government owned oil companies. No other country has developed fossil fuel skills, knowledge and innovation as compared to the US and Canadian producers. Capital formation via the markets or privately rule the oil business. Big risk, big reward. It is called capitalism.

How fledgling wannabes do it is largely the same as you see on Shark Tank, equity raisings. Whether oil drilling, autos, electronics or airplanes. And as TT notes above, the electric car guys can and do use the same techniques - capital formation. Tesla anybody? But they better have an economically viable game plan without government inspired gimmicks.

And Benthic, the US is now exporting oil, we are awash in it. And will be for a very long time.
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Old 11-08-2017, 02:34 PM   #84
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Another thought on this topic considering this is a Trawler forum. If you step back and consider the overall boating industry, very many of the boats in the trawler category generally cruise slow and burn ~5 GPH or less.
If you then compare this with many other recreational boats or sport fishers that can easily burn ten times what we do, that makes trawlers the lower consumption "economy" vehicles out there on the water....
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Old 11-08-2017, 04:17 PM   #85
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Ham,
Yeah, I think displacement trawlers can show an advantage in $$ per ton-mile, a comparison that doesn't include speed. My old tub costs about 7 cents per ton-mile.
2 GPH, 8 MPH, 10 tons at $2.80 per gallon, rough estimate.

Up (and down) to a point, displacement equates to space/creature comforts available. Chasing that sweet spot with diesel, hybrid or whatever is a harder to define part of the equation, part of the total "value" derived from boating under way and at anchor/dock, the how much/how little boat suits a particular skipper and admiral on board.
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Old 11-08-2017, 08:23 PM   #86
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Posted by Sunchaser:
Benthic, what Exxon subsidies are you referring to that are not industry wide? The US and Canadian oil producers are competing with world wide socialism inspired government owned oil companies. No other country has developed fossil fuel skills, knowledge and innovation as compared to the US and Canadian producers. Capital formation via the markets or privately rule the oil business. Big risk, big reward. It is called capitalism.

I am not sure what point you are trying to make: The oil subsidies are OK because they are industry wide, or the subsidies are necessary because the competition is supported by socialism ? But...then you go on to say that no one has the knowledge and experience that the US & Canada have......

If we are leading the industry, we don't need to be subsidized.
Just because the subsidies are industry wide, doesn't mean they are justified.

EOM was the second most profitable company in the world. Not the US, THE WORLD !! They DO NOT NEED SUBSIDIES !!!!

I understand the risk/reward relationship. However, some markets have higher barriers to entry than others, and simply would not exist without a subsidy. If a person risks their own resources and succeeds, they get the rewards. However, some industries benefit not only the founder/owner, but society as a whole. If you cure diabetes tomorrow, you will certainly get rich...but society benefits as well. Therefore it makes sense for the government to help you reach your goal.

My main point was to counter the argument that e-vehicle or solar subsidies are a waste of money because oil is so efficient....but oil is also heavily subsidized.

I know I'm not going to convice change anyone's mind on the liberal/conservative spectrum. I just wanted to point out the hypocrisy of the idea that electric vehicles can't compete with petroleum power so they shouldn't be subsidized.
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Old 11-08-2017, 08:31 PM   #87
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I'll keep it simple. You said Exxon is receiving subsidies, what are they?
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Old 11-09-2017, 12:35 AM   #88
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Hydrogen powered from water electrolysis motorboat and yatch projekt. I think this is betetr future powered vs elektric

https://youtu.be/oRBCVlNRBJ4

More exaples:
https://technabob.com/blog/2011/12/1...-powered-boat/




https://yachtemoceans.com/hydrogen-motor-yacht/




And ocean going projekt wind, solar and hydrogen catamarin
http://www.vocativ.com/439603/energy...oat/index.html


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Old 11-09-2017, 06:10 AM   #89
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"Tesla anybody? But they better have an economically viable game plan without government inspired gimmicks."

Tesla goes NOT make money by selling cars ,

its cash flow comes from selling "indulgances" to car makers that produce gas hogs .

The fine per gas hog is cheaper if offsets are purchased .
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Old 11-09-2017, 07:10 AM   #90
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Benthic
I'll keep it simple. You said Exxon is receiving subsidies, what are they?
Protection by the US 7th Fleet and then the 5th Fleet. But, it's not just Exxon that gets a "free" escort service.
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Old 11-09-2017, 09:14 AM   #91
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I'll keep it simple. You said Exxon is receiving subsidies, what are they?
Oil depletion allowance.
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Old 11-09-2017, 10:21 AM   #92
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Oil depletion allowance.
The Tax Reduction Act of 1975 eliminated statutory depletion allowance for oil and gas. Only independent oil and gas producers are allowed today to file for depletion. Integrated companies like Exxon, BP etc cannot. Tax incentives have spurred US oil and gas independents for a very long time with success allowing the US to become very close to the world's largest oil producer. For my tank and geo politically it is a win win.

But, I'm sure an oil and gas tax expert could weigh in on Exxon if any are around on TF. The current depletion allowance as I've used it applies to several commodities such as minerals (dozens) and timber and a few other depleting assets.
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Old 11-09-2017, 01:23 PM   #93
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The Tax Reduction Act of 1975 eliminated statutory depletion allowance for oil and gas. Only independent oil and gas producers are allowed today to file for depletion. Integrated companies like Exxon, BP etc cannot. Tax incentives have spurred US oil and gas independents for a very long time with success allowing the US to become very close to the world's largest oil producer. For my tank and geo politically it is a win win.

But, I'm sure an oil and gas tax expert could weigh in on Exxon if any are around on TF. The current depletion allowance as I've used it applies to several commodities such as minerals (dozens) and timber and a few other depleting assets.
I'm not normally one to jump to the defense of the oil industry. However, some specifics on ExxonMobil. 2016 was not a good year for them with a return on capital employed of only 3.9% and reporting by GAAP shows no income tax charge for the year. However, the two years previous the effective income tax rate was 34% and 41% for a three year weighted average of 28%. Then look at total taxes and duties paid, including sales related taxes. Taxes and duties for the last three years have totaled $49 billion, $58 billion, and $83 billion.

As to talk about depletion allowances, they account for depreciation and depletion like any other business. It's a normal recovery of capital expended. They have $454 billion of assets and their depreciation and depletion in 2016 was $22.3 billion. That is a rate of just under 5%, meaning their average asset is being depreciated over a time period of 20 years. Compared to most businesses, that is a very slow rate of depreciation.

If one is going to pick a company to target and say they're not paying a reasonable share of taxes, this is not the one I'd suggest picking. Plenty of much better targets out there.
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Old 11-09-2017, 01:53 PM   #94
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I cited a link to a NY Times article where I got the information regarding the subsidies.

Don't feel too bad for Exxon. They are the second most profitable...not largest...PROFITABLE company in the world. They made more money than anyone but Apple. Incidentally, the list I just saw had 3 oil companies in the top 10.
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Old 11-09-2017, 02:34 PM   #95
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Hydrogen powered from water electrolysis motorboat and yatch projekt. I think this is betetr future powered vs elektric

https://youtu.be/oRBCVlNRBJ4

More exaples:
https://technabob.com/blog/2011/12/1...-powered-boat/




https://yachtemoceans.com/hydrogen-motor-yacht/




And ocean going projekt wind, solar and hydrogen catamarin
The World?s First Hydrogen-Powered Boat - Vocativ


NBs(green)
Pre post link:
1kW to 5kW Fuel Cell Stacks

Hydrogen as a fuel sourced has alot of problems regarding safety, cost, and efficiency. The Nazis blew up several Uboats with hydrogen peroxide. Hydrogen lecks super super easily, in fact NASA use's hydrogen to test how air tight space suits are. Hydrogen can and will leak through holes to fine that even under the most powerful optical microscopes they are still not visible. At best from break down water to end output is at best 70% batteries are in the 90's of percent. Look at the link above, bare in mind you would need 80kw about to push a yacht unless you are going SLOW. Solar collection/compressed air storage are the best options in my opinion, or we can even do the simplest of all look at biofuels. Most of these boats are diesial no?
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Old 11-10-2017, 12:02 AM   #96
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I cited a link to a NY Times article where I got the information regarding the subsidies.

Don't feel too bad for Exxon. They are the second most profitable...not largest...PROFITABLE company in the world. They made more money than anyone but Apple. Incidentally, the list I just saw had 3 oil companies in the top 10.
I don't feel sorry for them at all. However, 2016 they were nowhere near that level of profitability so I don't know what year you're looking at. (I think I found the numbers you were looking at, 2014). There's a lot of rhetoric around about large companies and much of it very untrue. I am appalled at what some companies do but when I hear or read something, I do check it out before trusting it.
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Old 11-10-2017, 04:12 AM   #97
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Yes...2016 was a tough year for EOM...they "only" made 7.8 Billion dollars compared to the 16.2 Billion they made in 2015.

I am sure the CEO, Darren Woods was deeply affected by the decline, as his 2016 compensation was over $16 Million dollars.

I can just imagine the Woods family sitting around the fireplace trying to stay warm, eating baloney sandwhiches and ramon noodle soup.
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Old 11-10-2017, 08:41 AM   #98
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David, you are such an engineer!!!

Oh and regarding that open transom, it is really convenient to clean fish guts off the deck. Just back up hard and the sea floods over the deck. Jam it in fwd and the water goes back out, taking the fish guts with it.

Oh wait, it's a Hinckley. Nevermind.
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Old 11-10-2017, 08:41 AM   #99
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This link is to an article about a Canadian company installing a fuel cell on a cruise ship.

https://www.maritime-executive.com/a...form=hootsuite
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Old 11-11-2017, 07:20 AM   #100
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Much hype is in the Green BS.

A 60 meter charter tub with a solar panel will claim its partially solar powered .

RIGHT!
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