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Old 01-11-2018, 10:42 AM   #121
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[QUOTE=Rufus;623771]
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Originally Posted by Seevee View Post
Rufus,

Doesn't sound ike you're an aviator because you don't understand and don't know the facts.

And drones won't be controlled anymore that cars are. The idiot operators of either won't pay attention to laws.

/QUOTE]

Naval aviator. Coast Guard aviator. Navy Test Pilot School @ Patuxent River, Navy and FAA engineering test pilot. Society of Experimental Test Pilots, FAA aircraft certification manager. I assure you I understand the facts regarding drone certification, operation, and associated political games played by the industry. I too despise big government. That's not the issue.

The automotive environment requires that vehicles be built to a safety standard and periodically inspected, that operator competency be tested and operators be licensed. There is a robust system of operator oversight by a multitude of government policing organizations. It's coming for the drone segment. BTW, if the FAA decides to cede a low altitude segment of airspace to other government entities, you will not like the outcome. Why? Because the population at large will become the bogey man....and they don't like drones. They will be legislated to death.

(You seem to be suggesting that airline pilot unions endorse the current situation with drones. Really?)

Rufus,

Ski said it better than I could and he makes good points.

I guess you are a pilot, apologies. I would have thought you might have had a more open mind. However you did work for the FAA

We can agree to disagree a bit on this one. There already IS regulation with drones and there are restrictions and limitations. I could argue we just don't need any more government intrusion. We have enough government.

And, no, I'm not suggesting that airline pilots unions endorse anything, nor am I suggestion that you should like them or dislike them anymore than the weedwacker mentioned.
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Old 01-11-2018, 10:58 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by caltexflanc View Post
I'm here at CES all week. Every drone known to man is on display. Curious, this is a boating forum, has anyone mentioned underwater drones? Big category. Both wired and wireless ...
In the past, at least, most underwater "drones" tended to be referred to as "ROVs".

ROV is a better description of most of today's aerial MR devices anyway.
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Old 01-11-2018, 11:04 AM   #123
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They scared me too many times.
On the subject of danger to people on the ground, a friend of mine used to write ďItís your *Ē . He meant it was our ass to risk, not the innocent people on the ground. Donít fly where you could injure someone on the ground. I think the same applies to drones. But seriously, they are a lot less dangerous than an airplane, helicopter or even a car. All of these things have killed innocent bystanders.
Parks,

Yea, I'm scared with ultralights, too. Not my thing. Loved your story, thanks! You seems to have a lot of interesting stories.

Agree on the risk of drones. Unfortunately, there will always be idiots that fly them... just like cars, boats and planes.

(think I'll go fly my drone today... lets see, where is Rufus's boat?
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Old 01-11-2018, 11:38 AM   #124
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Seevee,


I worked in an area of the FAA that you probably didn't even know existed....the part that gave you a safe airplane to fly. Flight envelope verification, systems testing, structural and fatigue testing, engine and systems failure testing, emergency procedures, flight deck design and approval, flight and maintenance manual approval. The tech side, not the operations side. I've ridden jump seat twice in my career, and it wasn't to check crew procedures.


Your inference that I, as a pilot, would be exceptionally tolerant of drones is exactly the opposite of what I see in the real world. Pilots understand that the hobbyist drone community is largely populated by individuals without a clue as to aviation rules and operations. And unfortunately, even some pilots don't grasp that these simple four poster drones have not been tested for reliability, failure modes, and flight characteristics following failures. They are a hazard to people and property within a varying sized cone of operation under them. Period...full stop. (Please let us know how your takeoff with one motor inop works for you).


If operators actually followed the associated regulations, they would not be operating these devices in confined/populated areas like marinas, parks, and off their boats when in a slip. It is a fact that they do...routinely...more often than not. I have plenty of photos documenting same.


The testing of the device has been inadequate, the potential hazards brushed under the rug, rules are inadequate, and the enforcement threat is virtually nil. Just the way you seem to like it. I'm not surprised you spent a career fighting safety.
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Old 01-11-2018, 01:06 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by caltexflanc View Post
I'm here at CES all week. Every drone known to man is on display. Curious, this is a boating forum, has anyone mentioned underwater drones? Big category. Both wired and wireless
Underwater drones, you say?


Yemeni Rebels Capture a U.S. Navy Drone
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Old 01-11-2018, 01:30 PM   #126
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I just got a drone for Christmas.
It is difficult to fly.
I keep hitting the tree and knocking off ornaments.
These things are a menace!
Ya wild kids ya!
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Old 01-11-2018, 02:25 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by alormaria View Post
i just got a drone for christmas.
It is difficult to fly.
I keep hitting the tree and knocking off ornaments.
These things are a menace!
Ya wild kids ya!
lol!
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Old 01-11-2018, 02:45 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by caltexflanc View Post
Curious, this is a boating forum, has anyone mentioned underwater drones? Big category. Both wired and wireless
Because no one wants to secretly peep at some guys cutlass bearing? Doesn't sound like much fun....
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Old 01-11-2018, 04:02 PM   #129
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Because no one wants to secretly peep at some guys cutlass bearing? Doesn't sound like much fun....
Shipyards and boat yards use them for inspection in lieu of divers.

Recreationally for fishing and sight seeing. Some boats actually leave the marina and go to cool places to explore. And of course there's always checking the anchor
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Old 01-11-2018, 04:49 PM   #130
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Yes, I know there are good and fun uses for an underwater drone/ROV. Was just keeping it on the light side as they say. My wife always poo poo's my idea of a drone, under or over water. "DO you really need another toy?..When will you have time...etc." Then I mentioned that one would be very useful for checking for sharks (her absolute greatest fear) where we are anchored. Response turned to "Have you found a drone you like yet?"

I guess it is all about how you approach things....
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Old 01-11-2018, 08:47 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Rufus View Post
Seevee,


I worked in an area of the FAA that you probably didn't even know existed....the part that gave you a safe airplane to fly. Flight envelope verification, systems testing, structural and fatigue testing, engine and systems failure testing, emergency procedures, flight deck design and approval, flight and maintenance manual approval. The tech side, not the operations side. I've ridden jump seat twice in my career, and it wasn't to check crew procedures.

Yes, very familiar with that... did a bit of that myself.


Your inference that I, as a pilot, would be exceptionally tolerant of drones is exactly the opposite of what I see in the real world. Pilots understand that the hobbyist drone community is largely populated by individuals without a clue as to aviation rules and operations. And unfortunately, even some pilots don't grasp that these simple four poster drones have not been tested for reliability, failure modes, and flight characteristics following failures. They are a hazard to people and property within a varying sized cone of operation under them. Period...full stop. (Please let us know how your takeoff with one motor ions works for you).


Agreed about the testing, but do we really need that? Do we want to develop a drone to airline standards? I disagree about the hazard, if flown properly. And I disagree about the clue that drone pilots have. Sure, they are not regulated, but I find very few that are stupid. Everyone in "my" group knows all the rules and complies. Not hard.

If operators actually followed the associated regulations, they would not be operating these devices in confined/populated areas like marinas, parks, and off their boats when in a slip. It is a fact that they do...routinely...more often than not. I have plenty of photos documenting same.

The rules are clear about where you operate them, not hard to comply with. There is NO rule that says you can't operate them off a boat, in or out of a slip, park regulations vary, but over populated area with people below agreed. But there's plenty of space where one doesn't have to operate over people.


The testing of the device has been inadequate, the potential hazards brushed under the rug, rules are inadequate, and the enforcement threat is virtually nil. Just the way you seem to like it. I'm not surprised you spent a career fighting safety.I don't "fight" safety. I'm a strong proponent of it, and if spend a career and then some with safety solutions, including developing flight training courses just to make pilots safer, and then training the instructors to administer them. I'm all for safety, boat or plane. We just don't agree on the drone risk.
Rufus,

Comments in bold. Again, we can just agree to disagree, and I'm not going to convince you and you're not going to convince me. We just have different views.

Now, where is your boat parked?
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Old 01-11-2018, 08:50 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by firstbase View Post
Yes, I know there are good and fun uses for an underwater drone/ROV. Was just keeping it on the light side as they say. My wife always poo poo's my idea of a drone, under or over water. "DO you really need another toy?..When will you have time...etc." Then I mentioned that one would be very useful for checking for sharks (her absolute greatest fear) where we are anchored. Response turned to "Have you found a drone you like yet?"

I guess it is all about how you approach things....
Love it!
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Old 01-11-2018, 08:51 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by alormaria View Post
I just got a drone for Christmas.
It is difficult to fly.
I keep hitting the tree and knocking off ornaments.
These things are a menace!
Ya wild kids ya!
There's a TON of good guys out there for training, and very worth while and very reasonable. Way cheaper than hiring a training capt on a boat.
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Old 01-11-2018, 11:34 PM   #134
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... "DO you really need another toy?......
C`mon, everyone needs another toy.
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Old 01-12-2018, 09:09 AM   #135
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Agreed. He who dies with the most toys wins?

Just for fun and because I have way more time than sense I looked up documented drone accidents from 1994 through 2016.

Total of 136 reported crashes.
Of these 79 were military/contractors.
57 were the result of flights by civilian/private citizens.
Of these 57 crashes 5 involved striking a human.
3 of these 5 caused injury. The most severe was a woman being knocked unconscious and a baby struck in a stroller, bruise on head.

Of the civilian related group:

4 were in downtown New York City/San Francisco. Flying a drone in Manhattan, probably a bad idea.
3 involved someone trying to get drugs and cell phones into a prison.
3 involved sports stadiums with game going on.
2 hit power lines causing outages.
2 caused grass fires.
2 were at or near the White House
1 was caused by a hawk attack.

Now for my Annual Awards:

The Show Must Go On Award
9/26/2016 A small UAV flew into the head of performer Stanley Howse, a member of Bones Thugs-N-Harmony, at the High Life music festival at the San Bernardino County Fairgrounds, Victorville CA. He was able to continue.

Way To Kill My Drone Buzz Award
11/23/2016 A man searching for his small UAV, which had crashed in some woods near his home, found human remains near Ormond Beach, FL.

Del Boca Vista Phase III Seinfeld Award
4/3/2016 A small UAV crashed into the glass door to a balcony on the 17th floor of an oceanfront condominium building in Marco Island, Florida. The incident triggered a discussion of the need to ban drones, though no immediate action was taken.

I Hate When That Happens Award (TIE)
10/19/2015 A small UAV crash-landed on the roof of the Port St. Lucie police department in Florida. A hobbyist flying it nearby lost control of the craft.

8/22/2015 A small UAV crash-landed on the roof of the Lexington Financial Building, the tallest high-rise in downtown Lexington, KY. Security refused to allow the operator to retrieve it.

The O C Diver / leeman / Sugardog / Flywright / markpierce / psneeld / Rufus Award
5/23/2015 A man in Lake Havasu City, Arizona hit a low-flying UAV with a t-shirt, causing it to crash. He was charged with criminal damage.

No Matter What Happens, Get The Video Award
10/7/2015 A small UAV crashed in a park in Sunnyvale California, starting a small grass fire. The operators shot video of the fire from a second UAV as they called the fire department.

Takes A Licking, Keeps On Ticking Award
6/6/2015 A small UAV crashed in Folsom Lake in California, sinking to the bottom and continuing to shoot video. It was found by a vacationer two months later.

The Show Must Go On Award
9/26/2016 A small UAV flew into the head of performer Stanley Howse, a member of Bones Thugs-N-Harmony, at the High Life music festival at the San Bernardino County Fairgrounds, Victorville CA. He was able to continue.

Big Brother Is Watching Award
6/19/2015 A small UAV hovered near a woman sitting at an outdoor table at a bar in Tampa, Florida. It followed her as she left and crashed into her car's roof.
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Old 01-12-2018, 11:46 AM   #136
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I missed this thread and haven't bothered to read it all the way through. Here are my replies to the various comments/questions.

I have a DJI Mavic Pro.

I have launched and caught it by hand from my boat. I have also launched and landed on my fly-bridge deck.

I use Cyberlink Director software for editing.

My Drone is registered with the FAA, it was done before the court case that eliminated it. I don't know, but assume that my registration will still be good under the new law.

The Mavic is easy to fly. I did get concerned once when I flew it too far away from the boat, over a mountain ridge, and over a fresh water lake. I then lost video connection with the drone and was flying blind. I was able to climb to my max altitude setting (not very high on a US based drone) to get over the trees and head back in my general direction. I then recovered signal and the rest of the flight was uneventful. This was in a very remote area.

The Mavic is very quiet. I can barely hear once it is at about 15-20m high. It is really hard to see when it is in the air. I also try to be very, very considerate so as not to bother other boaters in the area. If someone on a boat or dinghy points at the drone, I figure I have screwed up. I have sent digital photos to the owners of boats whom I have encountered. Most folks like a nice aerial shot of their boat.

I don't use the drone as much as I initially imagined I would. There are many times and circumstances where I would like to have drone footage, but those are also many of the same times that everyone on board needs to be attending to the task of driving the boat, navigating, watching for traffic etc....

I added the Mavic to my homeowners insurance policy as a rider, along with my Go-Pro. They will replace it if it is damaged, lost, or stolen.
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Old 01-12-2018, 11:47 AM   #137
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Rufus,

Comments in bold. Again, we can just agree to disagree, and I'm not going to convince you and you're not going to convince me. We just have different views.

Now, where is your boat parked?
I didn't say certify drones to Airline standards...you did. I'd be happy with clear definition of the trajectory cone under the device when one of these commonly occurring failures takes place. That would define the radius operators should maintain from people and property on the ground (or on the water). Highly unlikely that you'd be able to launch and recover from a boat in a densely packed marina. As you know, just because the regulation doesn't specifically say you can't launch from a boat doesn't mean the general safety rules don't preclude it. Further, having a spouse or kid or girlfriend or boyfriend grab/hold these things on launch/recovery is outside the safety guidelines in the community based RC operating guidelines (required by the regulation).

Regarding the "statistics" listed in the firstbase post above, there is no requirement to report hobby drone accidents/incidents, so the numbers are meaningless. That said, the description of accidents do fully make my point...if you're operating your drone outside the "failure cone" under the device, none of these impacts with people and property would have occurred. That's the intent of the regulations....which you and the majority of drone operators conveniently choose to ignore.


Your attitude regarding the aviation safety infrastructure is clearly illustrated in your post#92. Your familiarity with drone regulations was clearly illustrated by your confusion regarding drone registration.
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Old 01-12-2018, 11:48 AM   #138
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ROFL! Funny stuff there...
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Old 01-12-2018, 12:06 PM   #139
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... just how much airspace "near your boat" do you own? 200' up and out? 250'? That space travel with you as you move through the water so you constantly own that space and anyone or thing entering it is subject to your response?
The question is really for you. How close can you operate to my boat and assure that your drone won't impact it when one of your motors or a propeller fails? Judging from videos I've seen, it's farther than you or most operators think.
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Old 01-12-2018, 01:21 PM   #140
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My comfort zone is mine.

I have been well trained that different cultures may invade my personal space due to cultural differences....and how to calmly deal with the situation.

A drone has no culture......therefore, if I feel a drone is looking at me like the normal public is...no big deal....

If the drone is invading my personal space or "spying/peeping".....you definitely dont want to be the drone, and probably not the operator.

Normally I dont like confrontation past aggressive debate...but get me on a step and I have training that you really wish I hadnt.

And thats not a macho approach....more like a black ops approach....
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