Dragonfly update.

[dwpsco]

Okay uhm... wow. Burning though 50 gallons of diesel a week just with the genset. To much gear running AC only. GOT to switch more gear to DC, and/or get a victron aboard. Now the question is which one? Quattro or Multi? Batteries, I'm feeling the GEL but will be looking at the lithium.

Nav gear, none of it talks with each other, bringing in a 0183 multiplexer, 0183 to 2K converter and a 2K to ethernet converter. Lets see if I can get all this gear talking to each other and my laptop.

Brought my home built computer (read as powerhouse that the kid gamers would drool over) and my Fileserver (read as 72 Terabyte file server) aboard... Anyone want to by some serious computer gear? Switching to my laptop only watts are watts and those two are killing me.

Plumbing... I hate plumbing full stop. Plumbing on a boat? Seriously? Are we sure we can't just poop overboard????? No? Damn. Okay with one minor mishap, I got the **** sorted. You read that right.

Fuel Transfer, 6 tanks each with a valve, fuel transfer manifold with 15 valves, 3 fuel transfer pumps each with 2 valves. 28 valves, 7 of witch need to be set correctly just to transfer fuel to the day tanks (2). Took some time but mission accomplished. Fuel transferring, a bit of distraction and not the generator day tank is over flowing into the bilge Got that solved, mental note, no more facebook while transfering fuel.

Garbage, I'm anchored. I like anchored. Marina's remind me of trailer parks or HOAs. Not a fan. But where does once get rid of the garbage? Oh and hey where does one get rid of used oil??

Getting around, what do you use to get around? I'm thinking electric bike.

 

[Simi 60]

To give you an idea we are a mostly 240v boat.

We leave on 24/7
500 litre 4 door fridge freezer
2 X 125 litre bar fridge
100 litre 5 draw freezer
25 litre hot water system - more than enough for us two in sub tropical and charges in 15min.
2 X Lenovo tiny computers i7 and i5 and SSD harddrives
Starlink
All of the above is on 24/7 and all runs on battery and inverter

We also have 240v washing machine
125 litre/hour Watermaker
Tea urn size still
42 and 34 inch led tv and 2 X 23inch monitors
Air frier oven, pie maker, electric kettle, toaster, pressure cooker, sandwich press
Normal desk and pedestal fans
Arc and Tig welder, selection of power tools.

All of it runs on battery and inverter - just not at the same time.
And big load items like the still or watermaker which runs for several hours at a time, we do on sunny days and solar provides most of the juice.

Batteries are 840ah @ 24v of lifepo4
Victron 5000/120 multiplus
2.5kw of solar with midnite classic 150mppt
7kva Kubota based Genset - only used on rainy days or every 3rd day in winter for a few hours

Only DC stuff is anchor windlass, pumps, toilets, lights and instrument's

Into year seven - never been in a marina so it clearly can be done.

 

[Simi 60]

Talking about this with my financier.
We'd love a bigger Genset
We'd get more big blue boxes
On the days we did run the Genset we'd be SMASHING in several hundred amps/hour
Big lifepo4 battery bank charged like magic.

 

[mvweebles]

From the OP's other thread, sounds like the converted fishing boat still has remnants of it's commercial lineage.....including a 208v 3-phase generator; and some large AC pumps. The standard advice of "Add more solar.....go LFP batteries" may be a bit premature in this case.

To much gear running AC only. GOT to switch more gear to DC, and/or get a victron aboard.

I was a bit perplexed by this. Watts are watts. Going from AC to DC wouldn't reduce the energy need per se. You could also run the AC stuff off an inverter. If the battery bank is large enough with a corresponding large charger, you could reduce the generator run time. Is that the intention?

Peter

 

[O C Diver]

Oh and hey where does one get rid of used oil??

Getting around, what do you use to get around? I'm thinking electric bike.

If your foraging on land takes you to a Walmart, all the ones with automobile repair departments accept used motor oil (they assume you will be buying new).

If I were going to add a bike or scooter to the boat, it would be electric. I also chose an electric dinghy outboard to eliminate another gasoline engine.

Ted

 

[Portage_Bay]

You have a big ex workboat. Buy your fuel and oil in bulk at a fuel dock that services the fishing fleet. Those places will usually take the used oil.

Oh and hey where does one get rid of used oil??

 

[dwpsco]

From the OP's other thread, sounds like the converted fishing boat still has remnants of it's commercial lineage.....including a 208v 3-phase generator; and some large AC pumps. The standard advice of "Add more solar.....go LFP batteries" may be a bit premature in this case.



I was a bit perplexed by this. Watts are watts. Going from AC to DC wouldn't reduce the energy need per se. You could also run the AC stuff off an inverter. If the battery bank is large enough with a corresponding large charger, you could reduce the generator run time. Is that the intention?

Peter

To clarify, Yes watts are watts, but eather I need a Victron or I need to switch to more DC because there is NO inverters aboard so I am running that big 271 3 phase a lot!

 

[Pete Meisinger]

Oh my goodness! Fifty gallons a week through a genny? I doubt if I run that through my main engine, a F.L. 120. Granted your boat must be significantly larger than mine but..

Reminds me of the old adage, "If you have to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it'

pete

 

[dwpsco]

Oh my goodness! Fifty gallons a week through a genny? I doubt if I run that through my main engine, a F.L. 120. Granted your boat must be significantly larger than mine but..

Reminds me of the old adage, "If you have to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it'

pete

Detroit Diesel 271 with a 3 phase 37.5kw generator connected to it is thirsty lol No inverter on board (yet) and most everything is 120vac. So lots of run time.

Will be getting a Inverter/Charger next week or so and as many batteries as I can stuff on board.

 

[Portage_Bay]

A 2-71 burning 50 gal / week with "lots of run time" implies you aren't loading it very much. I'm not as concerned with lightly loading a gen set as others are having done it a lot and seen no harm. But you are wasting money on fuel and the eating up the usable life of the gen set.

As a full time liveaboard on the hook I understand the desire to minimize gen run time. Go lithium. Go big. Big bank. Big charger. $$$$ Any type of lead acid is going to take a long time to bring to 100% state of charge compared to lithium. Much of that time the charger will hardly be working putting almost no load on the gen wasting fuel and gen set life.

Even with lithium you still won't be loading that 37.5 KW gen to much of it's capacity but you will shorten run time a lot. Eventually plan for a smaller, quieter gen set. $$$$.

Investigate what of the ex-fishing boat heavy electrical gear you don't and won't ever need. What can be replaced with lighter gear.

As a stop gap if the cost of lithium is out of the question for now and you're committed to lead acid think about a portable gasoline generator. Match the total charger power requirements at max output to the generator's max continuous load. As the chargers taper off the generator will get quieter and quieter especially if is is one of the very common inverter generators with automatic throttle control. It will be quieter and cheaper to operate.

Do however be very careful with how the portable gen is tied into your AC system and the possibility of exhaust getting into the living quarters. This is not a risk free setup, many will advise against it and rightly so. But the risks with some thought can be managed.

 

[Simi 60]

As a full time liveaboard on the hook I understand the desire to minimize gen run time. Go lithium. Go big. Big bank. Big charger. $$$$ Any type of lead acid is going to take a long time to bring to 100% state of charge compared to lithium. Much of that time the charger will hardly be working putting almost no load on the gen wasting fuel and gen set life.

Even with lithium you still won't be loading that 37.5 KW gen to much of it's capacity but you will shorten run time a lot. Eventually plan for a smaller, quieter gen set. $$$$.
.

Depends on the charger
Drop in a Victron 5000/120 multiplus and several linked skylla 100 chargers and she'd have some load on and a big Lifepo4 bank charged in no time at all.

But, maths will have to come into play

$12k in inverter and multiple chargers
Vs
Smaller Genset and getting big one out
Vs
$12,000 in diesel to run what's there.
And and and

As a stop gap if the cost of lithium is out of the question for now and you're committed to lead acid

I thought it had been demonstrated by several posters now that lifepo4 can and has been done for less than lead if comparing usable amp hours?

 

[Simi 60]

Garbage, I'm anchored. I like anchored. Marina's remind me of trailer parks or HOAs. Not a fan. But where does once get rid of the garbage?

Get rid of boxes before they come on board, cardboard hides cockroaches
Food scraps for us go over the side
Can crusher for beer cans reduces bulk.

And everything else into plastic bags our groceries get delivered in and stored down side deck* until next ashore and drop in a bin, any bin.
Wash out all meat trays and bags - that's where the smell comes from.
Usually only have one bag a week but bags do start to fail after week 3.
Then I drop them all into a big garbage bag which also breaks down in week 3
But we are usually doing a veg reprov by week 4 so a bin is found

* Our side decks are shaded and also have bulwarks so no one can see the bags

 

[Portage_Bay]

Simi, not looking to argue with you. I'm hoping OP takes your advice. You're full time livaboards on an ex-work boat sans marina tie up. A far different scenario than most posting here.

Regarding Pb vs Lithium. Yes, long haul the $$ / KWhr with Lithium are almost always cheaper than Pb. But, and this is why I said if lithium is out of reach at this time, it is expensive up front, do Pb. Because if one goes into it eyes wide open and knows Pb will be relatively short life with long charge times and is short of $$$ it's a way to get going. Not the best long haul, but it gets OP away from running the gen set full time.

Depends on the charger
Drop in a Victron 5000/120 multiplus and several linked skylla 100 chargers and she'd have some load on and a big Lifepo4 bank charged in no time at all.

But, maths will have to come into play

$12k in inverter and multiple chargers
Vs
Smaller Genset and getting big one out
Vs
$12,000 in diesel to run what's there.
And and and



I thought it had been demonstrated by several posters now that lifepo4 can and has been done for less than lead if comparing usable amp hours?

 

[DennisB1]

What rpm does your 2-71 run. The engine was used at 1200 and 1800 rpm with with different generator heads. The 1200 being much quieter that at the 1800 rpm. You would need a smaller generator head probably a 20kw. Just a thought.

 

[mvweebles]

.... But, and this is why I said if lithium is out of reach at this time, it is expensive up front, do Pb. Because if one goes into it eyes wide open and knows Pb will be relatively short life with long charge times and is short of $$$ it's a way to get going....

Here's a 400AH/12VDC Server Rack battery (5kwh) for $1400 - about 1/3rd the cost of four Battle Born 100AH batteries. It includes a robust BMS with over-current protection, communications capability to interface with an inverter, over-temp switching and fire supression (UL Listing requirement, but not really needed with LiFePO4 chemistry). It is gauranteed to 7000 cycles at 80% DoD; and 5000 cycles at 100% DoD - far surpassing anything in lead; and requires a fraction of the cabling 4x100AH batteries do.

What more motivation to swap to LFP does anyone need?

https://solarsovereign.com/products/eg4-lifepower4-lithium-battery-12v-400ah-server-rack-battery

Hooked

 

[Portage_Bay]

Thank you for posting this. Did you use these in your refit? If so any info on installation and setup would be greatly appreciated.

OP would do well to consider these.

As my current house bank ages out I will look into these. If my understanding of usable AH of FLA vs lithium is correct then one of the racks could replace my current house bank of six 6 volt golf car batts. The upfront cost for the banks is about the same. With the added benefits of longer service life and shorter gen set run times. Bringing the cost per AH for lithium down far below FLA.

Here's a 400AH/12VDC Server Rack battery (5kwh) for $1400 - about 1/3rd the cost of four Battle Born 100AH batteries. It includes a robust BMS with over-current protection, communications capability to interface with an inverter, over-temp switching and fire supression (UL Listing requirement, but not really needed with LiFePO4 chemistry). It is gauranteed to 7000 cycles at 80% DoD; and 5000 cycles at 100% DoD - far surpassing anything in lead; and requires a fraction of the cabling 4x100AH batteries do.


What more motivation to swap to LFP does anyone need?

https://solarsovereign.com/products/eg4-lifepower4-lithium-battery-12v-400ah-server-rack-battery

Hooked

 

[mvweebles]

Thank you for posting this. Did you use these in your refit? If so any info on installation and setup would be greatly appreciated.

OP would do well to consider these.

As my current house bank ages out I will look into these. If my understanding of usable AH of FLA vs lithium is correct then one of the racks could replace my current house bank of six 6 volt golf car batts. The upfront cost for the banks is about the same. With the added benefits of longer service life and shorter gen set run times. Bringing the cost per AH for lithium down far below FLA.

No, I didn't. Nothing even close to these when I bought a bunch of 100AH batteries with a mile of cable and bus bar. A pair of these Server Racks would be under $3k, and carry 800AH of juice. The only caveat is they have a relatively low discharge capacity of 200A each (400A for a pair), so probably need at least two. But they are very feature-rich - on/off switch; circuit protection in BMS; communications-ready; built-in discharge resistor. And they are a pretty compact form factor.

Very tempting.....

Peter

EDIT - install. I moved my batteries from Engine Room to lazarette, outboard. If I went with these Server Rack, I'd build a box and slide them in - there are mounting screws on the front. For other boats, I might find a cabinet or perhaps beneath a bunk and build-in. Would need inverter nearby so some ventillation. Also, some inverters can be a bit noisy - a consideration for placement. If I were building new, boat should have a small server rack built-in

 

[twistedtree]

Whatever your budget is for batteries, I would spend it on LFP, not on lead. Even if that means a smaller bank than you would like. You can always add more later. The LFP bank for my off-grid home is only 360Ah. But it is still infinitely better than the 1300Ah lead bank that it replaced. When there is no solar for weeks on end, the generator runs twice as often because of the smaller bank, but for less than half the time, so even with a small bank I'm way ahead.


I will be upgrading it significantly over the next month, but started small because at the time LFP was still quite a premium in $$, and the supporting tech (BMSes etc) was very immature.


Friends don't let friends buy lead.

 

[Portage_Bay]

Simi, weebles and twisted. Thank you for the education on the costs of lithium. I had been thinking of the costs of not too many years ago which were staggering.

 

[Carl Martin]

Amazon has several brands of 100ah lifePO4 batteries around $260. Has anyone tried any of these?

 

[twistedtree]

Amazon has several brands of 100ah lifePO4 batteries around $260. Has anyone tried any of these?

Check Will Prose's youtube channel. He has done good testing on a wide variety of low(er) cost manufacturers.

 

[bkcorwin]

https://www.mobile-solarpower.com/lithium-batteries.html also just lists out whatever the current recommendation is based on Prose's channel.

Its kind of dynamic as the battery manufacturers change things without telling anyone. I just ordered one of those 100ah powerurus ones to run a trolling motor on my 11' whaler/mini bass boat project.

 

[mvweebles]

Check Will Prose's youtube channel. He has done good testing on a wide variety of low(er) cost manufacturers.

Prowse has essentially stopped testing cheap Amazon batteries. First, he can't keep up. Second, the quality sucks. In his opinion, there is no way anyone can build a decent battery for the rock-bottom prices seen on Amazon.

If I were to buy right now, I'd go with either SOK 206AH/12V at around $1050 delivered; or if I could fit them, EG4 400AH/12V Server Rack batteries for $1400 delivered. The BMS's in these batteries are good, they are serviceable, and they are well constructed.

I traded notes today with a friend in the mountains of Wyoming. His wet-cell Costco GC2s are toast after 2-years. Not sure a LFP is the right answer due to extreme cold, but FLA replacements are around $120/each, or one-third the cost of EG4. Expected cycles are >10-x; probably closer to 20X between cheap FLA and fairly cheap LFP.

And then there is the hassle for my friend of showing up for summer and spending 3-days getting fresh batteries (he is 1-hour from paved road; 2-hours from a small city).

Peter