Double Enders

[Nomad Willy]

Some thoughts,

Unstable re directional stability ....

Best is upwind bashing. But straight into it.
Rolling in the trough dosn’t effect much except rolling.

But Tcap you probably should have been more specific re what kind of stability.

So many variables;
Going straight into it is very stable w my boat. More stable than Katherine J because Willy has a bigger rudder (relative to her size) and can correct much faster.

Stern seas are a problem for all boats.

And for what ever you were to call as “worst” one could fill in a variable that would change the outcome as to what is “worst”.

 

[Art]

Yes I saw that thanks. I have similar pic that looks to be in the same spot. Very cool, it was before the fire.

View attachment 111651

Double step up toward bow in the bottom paint is for the bow wave? Or just for looks in general. One way or another it looks pretty nice!

 

[trawlercap]

Double step up toward bow in the bottom paint is for the bow wave? Or just for looks in general. One way or another it looks pretty nice!

The boat was ringed with iron bark for ice protection I the 90’s the boat spent 20 years in SE Ak. The paint highlights the steps some stylish shiprite crafted.

 

[Art]

The boat was ringed with iron bark for ice protection I the 90’s the boat spent 20 years in SE Ak. The paint highlights the steps some stylish shiprite crafted.View attachment 111652

I like this boat sooooo much!!

 

[trawlercap]

Some thoughts,

Unstable re directional stability ....

Best is upwind bashing. But straight into it.
Rolling in the trough dosn’t effect much except rolling.

But Tcap you probably should have been more specific re what kind of stability.

So many variables;
Going straight into it is very stable w my boat. More stable than Katherine J because Willy has a bigger rudder (relative to her size) and can correct much faster.

Stern seas are a problem for all boats.

And for what ever you were to call as “worst” one could fill in a variable that would change the outcome as to what is “worst”.

I had a Tug boat Capt. tell me once "you guys are nuts, I'd never be a fisherman" I considered myself (a Bering Sea fisherman) a professional, so I ask, "why?" "You head out empty, you load your cargo at sea, in insane conditions, do you know your stability changes in a heart beat."
It's rare, but I handle my boat wrong, we lay over or roll over. Stacking crab pots, fish bags above deck, slack tanks, ice build up. Its a constant vigilance kinda thing.
Our yachts are a different animal. More of "load at the dock" so stability only changes on you if you load high, take on water, or get smashed up by waves.
So this long explanation, I referred to an unstable boat, is most likely to founder if its down swell.

So many variables;
Going straight into it is very stable w my boat. More stable than Katherine J because Willy has a bigger rudder (relative to her size) and can correct much faster.

I would respectfully disagree Nomad. A fast or bigger rudder may help hide a hull shape that is cranky. If your boat fights the autopilot in flat water it's usually not the auto pilots fault. The boat is cranky, like a frisky horse that needs more reins. I've only had my 68 year old boat in flat water, the rudder had been modified many times I suspect, it barley bumps a degree to hold course with no wind in the sound. I anticipate it is sized and configured right, base on all the money spent on this vessel..
Accident are a string of events that culminate in disaster. Eliminate any one of those things, you break the chain, and avert a bad day. Thats our job, to not just survive but thrive.
If a boat can't hold it's head up in big wind, it may too high sided, canvased like a sail on the third floor back to the stern, too low powered, pitching dipping bow, too heavy up front with accommodations, small rudder..leaking front windows, whatever. Go out and maneuver in protected water in 30+ kts. Better at 50. How does it respond? Do you drift sideways? Lay over with a shallow fast bottom? Unable to round up? It's a really good thing to know. Just in case.
My apologies, my work boat life does bleed over.

150 tons pure Wild Alaska Pollack. 123' 1800 HP steel trawler, Bering Sea.


This is unsafe levels of ice build up, we got caught offshore, it was to rough to work on deck. So we built a lot of this ice trying to seek shelter. we developed a nasty list on the windy side. 12 hours of pounding and shoveling tons of ice got us back on our feet. February Aleutian Islands

 

[trawlercap]

I like this boat sooooo much!!

Thanks Art, is great to hear. We just spent our first 6 days aboard and are thrilled as we learn a lot of "old ways"

In these images, you can see the iron bark for ice protection. The starboard side is etended to protect the anchor action. I would never considering a wood boat that was run down, it's a man-killer and wallet-killer. This boat has had owners that really ponied up...

 

[Nomad Willy]

Willy “cranky”? That never occured to me. Her ends are closer together and thereby easier to control w the helm.
But I like the way your rudder sticks out aft.
With Willy’s weight and fullness mostly aft and the raked bow stem she’s directionally stable for a short boat. Balance.
I usta not like short boats. But Willy’s not excessively short and it never occurred to me that she was while buying her. It’s obvious especially w KJ on the mind. From the far forward forefoot to her hanging out rudder directional stability is far greater than control. Willy leans the other way. And I’m not faulting either boat. Just different. But on that score they are more the same than different.
Cheers,
Eric

 

[skyhawk]

Gives me the creeps just watching that clip.

yep. reminds me of my teen years. Dad, a retired CG BMCM, had a 23ft Penn Yan with flying bridge....
top heavy and with the tunnel drive not very maneuverable
we used to go in and out of Carolina Beach inlet in NC all the time

I reality it was probably a bit calmer than that video much of the time, but it felt just like it looks in the video. I never did get used to it but dad took it in stride....
The scariest time might have been when we were towed in after we had been struck by lightning and lost the engine.
The Winner Queen was a big catamaran fishing headboat out of Carolina Beach. We had flagged her down on it's way back in the inlet and she towed us full speed ahead through the breakers. Good times!

 

[Lostsailor13]

I have to agree also,double Enders just have that salty look,something about them catch peoples eyes,Broadbill gets loads of compliments,and it definitely doesn’t hurt that a following sea doesn’t push the boat,but in a beam sea she will roll the peanut butter off a sandwich

 

[OldDan1943]

I had a Tug boat Capt. tell me once "you guys are nuts, I'd never be a fisherman" I considered myself (a Bering Sea fisherman) a professional, so I ask, "why?" "You head out empty, you load your cargo at sea, in insane conditions, do you know your stability changes in a heart beat."
It's rare, but I handle my boat wrong, we lay over or roll over. Stacking crab pots, fish bags above deck, slack tanks, ice build up. Its a constant vigilance kinda thing.
Our yachts are a different animal. More of "load at the dock" so stability only changes on you if you load high, take on water, or get smashed up by waves.
So this long explanation, I referred to an unstable boat, is most likely to founder if its down swell.

So many variables;
Going straight into it is very stable w my boat. More stable than Katherine J because Willy has a bigger rudder (relative to her size) and can correct much faster.

I would respectfully disagree Nomad. A fast or bigger rudder may help hide a hull shape that is cranky. If your boat fights the autopilot in flat water it's usually not the auto pilots fault. The boat is cranky, like a frisky horse that needs more reins. I've only had my 68 year old boat in flat water, the rudder had been modified many times I suspect, it barley bumps a degree to hold course with no wind in the sound. I anticipate it is sized and configured right, base on all the money spent on this vessel..
Accident are a string of events that culminate in disaster. Eliminate any one of those things, you break the chain, and avert a bad day. Thats our job, to not just survive but thrive.
If a boat can't hold it's head up in big wind, it may too high sided, canvased like a sail on the third floor back to the stern, too low powered, pitching dipping bow, too heavy up front with accommodations, small rudder..leaking front windows, whatever. Go out and maneuver in protected water in 30+ kts. Better at 50. How does it respond? Do you drift sideways? Lay over with a shallow fast bottom? Unable to round up? It's a really good thing to know. Just in case.
My apologies, my work boat life does bleed over.

150 tons pure Wild Alaska Pollack. 123' 1800 HP steel trawler, Bering Sea.
View attachment 111653

This is unsafe levels of ice build up, we got caught offshore, it was to rough to work on deck. So we built a lot of this ice trying to seek shelter. we developed a nasty list on the windy side. 12 hours of pounding and shoveling tons of ice got us back on our feet. February Aleutian Islands

View attachment 111654

Correct me if I am wrong and provide your reasoning.
I have been told, if you have a hose with reasonable high pressure you can immediately wash the ice off the upper portion of the boat reducing the weight 'up there'. Yes, there may be some refreezing the ice coating will not be as thick.
On some ships there are steam connections on deck that are designed to assist in starting up steam plants.(US Navy)
They can also be used to with hoses to speed up the ice removal.

 

[Hippocampus]

Believe there’s a misconception about double enders in a following sea. Have owned a Pacific Sea craft and a Bob Perry Tatyana so well familiar with behavior in open ocean following seas. There’s a reason the canoe stern and double ender has been abandoned by naval architects for many decades now. The appearance of the hull above the waterline and even the appearance above the healed waterline is not relevant to performance in following seas.
One may wish to read the designer of more canoe/double ended sterns in the water than anyone else. That being that remarkably skilled N.A. Bob Perry. He points out the above. He states if well designed both a transom stern or double ended stern can achieve equal performance in moderate following seas.
The achievement of a “balanced “ hull has everything to do with the water plane at any angle of heel and response to a boarding sea. But nothing to do with appearance above submersed portions. In fact the extreme “pizza pie” shaped boats appear safer and more efficient in the massive following seas of the Southern Ocean as they race RTW.
Reading Attainable Adventures over the years and from direct experience surfing hulls and cruising various hull shapes I’m personally totally convinced there’s much more to behavior than the simple construct that canoe or double ended hulls are best in following seas. In fact in comparing hulls the most trouble I had was on a friend’s variation of a “Eric”. Boat was a dog and truly scary in following seas. This is a “classic” double ender not a canoe stern. Not enough reserved buoyancy so would bury the stern with risk of pooping. Wandered terribly so risked broaching. Decent directional stability from a reach to a beat. But with seas behind the mast cork screwed and when surfing terrible directional stability. Now the Wm. Atkins “Eric “ was considered by many to be the ultimate heavy weather small(32’- his was expanded to 36’ otherwise true to the design) boat. But it didn’t hold a candle to my prior transom sterned Outbound in following seas.