Docking a 100,000 LB boat

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Personal observations.. A typical husband and wife team approaching the dock with twin screw boat with bow thruster or not if relatively new owners... Husband gets close to dock, wife on swim platform and uncertain of what is expected of her because hub/Capt doesn't convey a docking plan.. Gets chaotic, hubby pissed, yells at wife and it is a horror show. Not all , but we all see it everyday at marinas.

Peeps with single screw who have been working together for a bit (otherwise they probably wouldn't' chose single screw) They approach dock, whoever is the line handler, puts a spring line on and operator comes into spring and lines go out.. No chaos, just a team working together.... A pleasure to see
 
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Personal observations.. A typical husband and wife team approaching the dock with twin screw boat with bow thruster or not if relatively new owners... Husband gets close to dock, wife on swim platform and uncertain of what is expected of her because hub/Capt doesn't convey a docking plan.. Gets chaotic, hubby pissed, yells at wife and it is a horror show. Not all , but we all see it everyday at marinas.

Peeps with single screw who have been working together for a bit (otherwise they probably wouldn't' chose single screw) They approach dock, whoever is the line handler, puts a spring line on and operator comes into spring and lines go out.. No chaos, just a team working together.... A pleasure to see

Seems like a heavy mix of apples and oranges. Help us out with what is the message here? Don’t be married and run a twin screw boat? Married people don’t use spring lines? Singles are good? Sorry but I’m not following. If the message is not to yell at your wife, I agree that’s good advice.
 
Have used that procedure hundreds of times, and it used to be my routine. Worked just as you say, and I even taught novices to do the same. With time, however, I began to imagine the consequences of a transmission failure. You know that transmissions never fail, except at the worst possible moment . . .

Anyway, singlehandedly throwing an underpowered single-engine boat of 40 or 50 feet into a parallel slip not much bigger than the boat, sans thruster, is a fun and satisfying way to impress an audience. Eventually I began to feel that I might have used up my quota of luck, and now I take it slower.

Yeah suppose but if you base everything around failure you never do anything, I would much rather trust my bullet proof velvet drive that has never missed a beat ever, than the reliability of thrusters, there super problematic especially when you need them for a period in a cross wind dock situation, best thing like I said lay a little reverse and just let her settle and simply tie her off, it really is that simple when mastered........ no need to crab the boat which is multiple fwd rev actions and you also don’t have the bow chasing the stern in the cross wind situation ?
 
Seems like a heavy mix of apples and oranges. Help us out with what is the message here? Don’t be married and run a twin screw boat? Married people don’t use spring lines? Singles are good? Sorry but I’m not following. If the message is not to yell at your wife, I agree that’s good advice.

Merely my observations...
 
Yeah suppose but if you base everything around failure you never do anything, I would much rather trust my bullet proof velvet drive that has never missed a beat ever, than the reliability of thrusters, there super problematic especially when you need them for a period in a cross wind dock situation, best thing like I said lay a little reverse and just let her settle and simply tie her off, it really is that simple when mastered........ no need to crab the boat which is multiple fwd rev actions and you also don’t have the bow chasing the stern in the cross wind situation ��

Hope my post didn't come across as advocating dependency on a bow thruster. They can be a nice asset, but the skipper who stakes the outcome of every maneuver on an effective thruster is already in trouble.

The larger point has to do with the "prudent mariner" mindset. Aviators know about this, where a pilot is trained to be ever-mindful of what to do if something stops working as it should. The mind of a pilot (at least, any pilot I want to fly with) is always out in front of the aircraft, anticipating things. Not living in terror of failure, but with a bag of options in mind, just in case. As the old saying goes, "there are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there aren't many old bold pilots." Chuck Yeager, who lived to 97, used to be the exception that proved the rule.

When zooming into a parallel space along a face dock, I would approach just as Mobcat says, at a 45-degree angle (or greater) with plenty of way on. Shifting into reverse, I would wait to feel the tranny engage, then as the bow entered the perimeter of my docking space, begin goosing the throttle. As way came off, the rudder became ineffective, but prop walk took over. With judicious surges of RPMs, the propellor simultaneously killed the boat's forward momentum, and swung the stern in against the face dock, while the bow swung away. Sideways momentum laid the boat's entire length against the dock, where it remained motionless, like an obedient Black Lab. When everything happened perfectly, I could step away from the helm, pick my my breast line, and step off onto the dock to make it secure just as the rub-rail gently kissed the pilings.

What could go wrong? Well, let's see: a shifter or throttle cable could break, the aforementioned tranny failure could happen, the shaft could decide it was tired of spinning repeatedly in opposite directions under heavy torque and shear apart, or the wheel could spin off the end of the shaft. None of those risks are likely. But if any one of them happened, the rudder would not have saved me. I would have been guaranteed to crash into either the dock itself or another boat. Besides the property damage, the harm to my personal dignity would have been unthinkable!

The more time I spent on the water sharing sea stories with other boaters, the more I realized that every point of failure mentioned above not only could happen, but had happened, to someone else. Why couldn't they happen to me?

By the way, that was before electronic shifters and controls became commonplace. Just about every boater I know who has used electronic controls has experienced some kind of glitch - including me.

Accidents result from more than one point of failure. We all do what we can to prevent those failures from happening, but they will. If failures ever start to gang up on me, the easiest thing I can do is eliminate from the list of contributing factors the one that says, "the captain was being reckless." Not suggesting that anyone else is reckless, here - just sharing what has made me more cautious or at least risk-averse over the years.

On top of everything else, there is also now another new threat to the skipper's dignity: the YouTube videos called "Boneheaded Boaters of the Week." Don't ever want any of my dockings to appear there!:popcorn:
 
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I may need to know everything about handling heavy boats when docking. For this discussion assume single screw, 50 foot long and no thrusters.

My main concern is regarding how a deck hand deals with a dock line when the boat is still three feet off the dock. Can they just muscle the boat closer? Will I be looking at improving my skills of using a spring line and full rudder to get up against a dock?

Although I have a trawler right now (Ranger 29) its 9,500 lbs, not 100,000. The heaviest boat I have owned is 12,500 lbs (my C&C 34/36+ sailboat, which I still own). All advice greatly appreciated.

Very slowly. I found heavy boats easier than light boats that get pushed all over by wind and currents. Like an airplane, go around if you have to to, don't muscle the process
 
My son's math teacher had a great philosophy. If your homework is taking more than an hour STOP. Practicing doing things wrong doesn't help. Spend an hour or so with the previous captain. If someone just wrote me a big check, I would be happy to spend an hour with him. If that doesn't get you up to a minimum level of proficiency hire a teaching captain right away. (You can probably get some decent recomendations here)

My point is that getting help and then practicing on your own will be considerably more productive than trying to learn on your own and then hiring the captain. Also, consider the cycle time. Three seperate sessions that are 2 hours long may be better than one 6 hour session, as your learning ability declines after a certain point and you are less likely to be frustrated. Plus you can reinforce what you learn on your own between sessions.
 
Also, consider the cycle time. Three seperate sessions that are 2 hours long may be better than one 6 hour session, as your learning ability declines after a certain point and you are less likely to be frustrated. Plus you can reinforce what you learn on your own between sessions.

Excellent advice. An additional benefit of multiple / separate training sessions is that you get to perform the same maneuver, in the same place, with the same boat, but under a variety of conditions - e.g. wind, current, sunlight angle, surrounding traffic, dockside audiences, etc.
 
Big difference in what conditions you practice in.

I see boat owners praise each other for docking in marinas with little wind a virtually no current.

Probably the same that write reviews about other places and bitc* about exposure or current and highly recommend arriving at slack current (not always convenient).

A couple hours getting good in perfect conditions with a twin engines or a thruster is not impossible....docking in conditions normally found when cruising usually takes a bit more time.....especially with a single and no thruster.
 
YES. I was just about to state that you must learn to "think ahead" because if you wait until you see something going wrong, it's almost too late.

2savage give good advice with regard to heavy boats taking time to react to thrust changes. Pay VERY close attention to small movements or changes in direction that are not planned. React before they quickly increase so that you can get adverse movements canceled before they get out of hand.

My 58LRC is right at 100K, I do have a bow thruster - but it reacts very slowly due to the weight of this vessel. I was once told "don't approach the dock at any speed greater than you' want to hit it". I keep that in mind all the time and so far - without incident.



I'm inclined to agree with all suggestions for a bow and/or stern thruster but am going to see how things are 'as is' until I decide what to do here. After all, it's been without for many decades and nothing has been done to date. Maybe I would be trying to correct an issue that does not need attention.

My current (commissioned) boat has both bow and stern thrusters. There is no maneuver it cannot do. But with the heavier boat there are plenty of maneuvers I would not even attempt to do.
 
One other consideration, nothing to do with docking a heavy boat....

Insurance. Make sure you have a resume that will document your skills in operating a boat this size and weight. Most insurance companies will insist on experience in the general size range of the boat you are operating. Otherwise you may be required to hire a captain and keep him on board until he signs off you can safely operate the vessel. This may not be a bad idea anyway, but most people don't realize the insurance requirements for these bigger boats.
 
Hope my post didn't come across as advocating dependency on a bow thruster. They can be a nice asset, but the skipper who stakes the outcome of every maneuver on an effective thruster is already in trouble.

The larger point has to do with the "prudent mariner" mindset. Aviators know about this, where a pilot is trained to be ever-mindful of what to do if something stops working as it should. The mind of a pilot (at least, any pilot I want to fly with) is always out in front of the aircraft, anticipating things. Not living in terror of failure, but with a bag of options in mind, just in case. As the old saying goes, "there are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there aren't many old bold pilots." Chuck Yeager, who lived to 97, used to be the exception that proved the rule.

When zooming into a parallel space along a face dock, I would approach just as Mobcat says, at a 45-degree angle (or greater) with plenty of way on. Shifting into reverse, I would wait to feel the tranny engage, then as the bow entered the perimeter of my docking space, begin goosing the throttle. As way came off, the rudder became ineffective, but prop walk took over. With judicious surges of RPMs, the propellor simultaneously killed the boat's forward momentum, and swung the stern in against the face dock, while the bow swung away. Sideways momentum laid the boat's entire length against the dock, where it remained motionless, like an obedient Black Lab. When everything happened perfectly, I could step away from the helm, pick my my breast line, and step off onto the dock to make it secure just as the rub-rail gently kissed the pilings.

What could go wrong? Well, let's see: a shifter or throttle cable could break, the aforementioned tranny failure could happen, the shaft could decide it was tired of spinning repeatedly in opposite directions under heavy torque and shear apart, or the wheel could spin off the end of the shaft. None of those risks are likely. But if any one of them happened, the rudder would not have saved me. I would have been guaranteed to crash into either the dock itself or another boat. Besides the property damage, the harm to my personal dignity would have been unthinkable!

The more time I spent on the water sharing sea stories with other boaters, the more I realized that every point of failure mentioned above not only could happen, but had happened, to someone else. Why couldn't they happen to me?

By the way, that was before electronic shifters and controls became commonplace. Just about every boater I know who has used electronic controls has experienced some kind of glitch - including me.

Accidents result from more than one point of failure. We all do what we can to prevent those failures from happening, but they will. If failures ever start to gang up on me, the easiest thing I can do is eliminate from the list of contributing factors the one that says, "the captain was being reckless." Not suggesting that anyone else is reckless, here - just sharing what has made me more cautious or at least risk-averse over the years.

On top of everything else, there is also now another new threat to the skipper's dignity: the YouTube videos called "Boneheaded Boaters of the Week." Don't ever want any of my dockings to appear there!:popcorn:


Blissboat,
You make some good points and I could argue with you that the 45d and then rapidly applying reverse is a maneuver that I wouldn't be comfortable with.
Yes, always have a back up plan and plan ahead. There certainly is an argument for going slow, however, it's almost impossible to always be in control regardless what fails. You could loose and number of things that could cause you to hit the dock, however unlikely.


But, yes, we train for failures and have a plan of what to do. And, like in aviation, we should have some immediate action items and perhaps a checklist to follow thru. A problem underway could call for get the anchor out right away. Loosing a thruster could only be a minor inconvenience... but could stop you from getting to a certain dock. Loosing your only single engine would be a lot more exciting.



As for handling a 100k pound boat, I'll most likely never do that, but would be fun. But for "me" thrusters would be high on my list.
 
Wifey B: Have you ever used a microwave? :confused:

Do you use a cell phone? :confused:

Do you use a remote to open your car door? :confused:

Do you use speed control when driving your car on highways? :confused:

Do you use turn signals or stick your arm out the window? :confused:

If you do any of these, then what is with the macho attitude and advising a relative newbie to just bang against the docks instead of having a thruster and what is it with your shame of using a thruster? :confused:

Using a thruster doesn't mean you can't do it without and doesn't make you less of a captain. Refusing to consider one makes you blind to the potential benefit it might have. :confused:

The attitude just confuses me. And for the OP, I still recommend bow thrusters. :)

I can dock without thrusters. Never had them on the lake. But they're here and I have them and I use them and make no apologies. :)


I guess we've beat this to death, but totally agree.
Give me all the engines and thrusters I can fit on the boat, I'll take all the help I can get with no apology.
 
Personal observations.. A typical husband and wife team approaching the dock with twin screw boat with bow thruster or not if relatively new owners... Husband gets close to dock, wife on swim platform and uncertain of what is expected of her because hub/Capt doesn't convey a docking plan.. Gets chaotic, hubby pissed, yells at wife and it is a horror show. Not all , but we all see it everyday at marinas.

Peeps with single screw who have been working together for a bit (otherwise they probably wouldn't' chose single screw) They approach dock, whoever is the line handler, puts a spring line on and operator comes into spring and lines go out.. No chaos, just a team working together.... A pleasure to see


Interesting post.....
First, I could argue to not have a wife.
If you do, let her do the driving, and you handle the lines, especially the first spring. Most men can out throw and handle lines better and a lot of women do a better job of driving.

Now have the GF handle the stern line and everything will work out fine.
 
Interesting post.....
First, I could argue to not have a wife.
If you do, let her do the driving, and you handle the lines, especially the first spring. Most men can out throw and handle lines better and a lot of women do a better job of driving.

Now have the GF handle the stern line and everything will work out fine.

I agree!
 
So first was a 50’ 100,000 pounds? Maybe half that weight at 50’ actually. [emoji23]
Why would you question this? Actual is 95,500 lbs. I rounded it up for simplicity.
 
Hope my post didn't come across as advocating dependency on a bow thruster. They can be a nice asset, but the skipper who stakes the outcome of every maneuver on an effective thruster is already in trouble.

The larger point has to do with the "prudent mariner" mindset. Aviators know about this, where a pilot is trained to be ever-mindful of what to do if something stops working as it should. The mind of a pilot (at least, any pilot I want to fly with) is always out in front of the aircraft, anticipating things. Not living in terror of failure, but with a bag of options in mind, just in case. As the old saying goes, "there are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there aren't many old bold pilots." Chuck Yeager, who lived to 97, used to be the exception that proved the rule.

When zooming into a parallel space along a face dock, I would approach just as Mobcat says, at a 45-degree angle (or greater) with plenty of way on. Shifting into reverse, I would wait to feel the tranny engage, then as the bow entered the perimeter of my docking space, begin goosing the throttle. As way came off, the rudder became ineffective, but prop walk took over. With judicious surges of RPMs, the propellor simultaneously killed the boat's forward momentum, and swung the stern in against the face dock, while the bow swung away. Sideways momentum laid the boat's entire length against the dock, where it remained motionless, like an obedient Black Lab. When everything happened perfectly, I could step away from the helm, pick my my breast line, and step off onto the dock to make it secure just as the rub-rail gently kissed the pilings.

What could go wrong? Well, let's see: a shifter or throttle cable could break, the aforementioned tranny failure could happen, the shaft could decide it was tired of spinning repeatedly in opposite directions under heavy torque and shear apart, or the wheel could spin off the end of the shaft. None of those risks are likely. But if any one of them happened, the rudder would not have saved me. I would have been guaranteed to crash into either the dock itself or another boat. Besides the property damage, the harm to my personal dignity would have been unthinkable!

The more time I spent on the water sharing sea stories with other boaters, the more I realized that every point of failure mentioned above not only could happen, but had happened, to someone else. Why couldn't they happen to me?

By the way, that was before electronic shifters and controls became commonplace. Just about every boater I know who has used electronic controls has experienced some kind of glitch - including me.

Accidents result from more than one point of failure. We all do what we can to prevent those failures from happening, but they will. If failures ever start to gang up on me, the easiest thing I can do is eliminate from the list of contributing factors the one that says, "the captain was being reckless." Not suggesting that anyone else is reckless, here - just sharing what has made me more cautious or at least risk-averse over the years.

On top of everything else, there is also now another new threat to the skipper's dignity: the YouTube videos called "Boneheaded Boaters of the Week." Don't ever want any of my dockings to appear there!:popcorn:


I’m actually a pilot retired now Lol ?...... hey I’m not arguing just stating proven procedures in all conditions, like throwing more flap in than normal to control airspeed, risky VERY if the flap snaps off lol but that dosent happen very often luckily ? by the sounds of your read you come in heavier than me I don’t feel the need to come in at speed and mash reverse mines more of a controlled situation with momentum being swallowed by mainly the displacement loosing power and the reverse simply to tick her in , any way all us good there are many ways to skin a cat, if that’s your thing lol ?
 
Interesting post.....
First, I could argue to not have a wife.
If you do, let her do the driving, and you handle the lines, especially the first spring. Most men can out throw and handle lines better and a lot of women do a better job of driving.

Now have the GF handle the stern line and everything will work out fine.
Probably optimal if wife and GF not onboard at the same time.:angel:
 
Probably optimal if wife and GF not onboard at the same time.:angel:


Yup, never let your wife meet your GF! They may hit it off great, and THEN think of how your life would be?

Personally, I'm blessed that my GF and my Wife are the same person!:D
 
Probably optimal if wife and GF not onboard at the same time.:angel:

Wifey B: How about your wife's girlfriends or even better if you and wife have the same girlfriends so that as a couple you have girlfriends. :D:D:D:D

Not that I know any couples who might fit that but if you happen to run across any outrageously happy couples who always seem to have lots of other females around, you might just start to wonder. ;)
 
Never plan for someone to muscle you in. This is dangerous. Get your center / spring line ready and TIE it OFF immediately. Then use engine / rudder to maneuver bow and stern to tie off.

This assumes side tie. Always manuver boat to leeward so wind till push you onto the dock.

If marina puts you downwind ask for a different slip. This makes pulling in to a 2 finger slip easy.
 
Never plan for someone to muscle you in. This is dangerous. Get your center / spring line ready and TIE it OFF immediately. Then use engine / rudder to maneuver bow and stern to tie off.

This assumes side tie. Always manuver boat to leeward so wind till push you onto the dock.

If marina puts you downwind ask for a different slip. This makes pulling in to a 2 finger slip easy.

I know people don't like OSHA and regulatory rules but one thing we learned in designing job procedures is that no job should ever require one to life or move weights over 51 pounds. Tthe National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) has developed a mathematical model that helps predict the risk of injury based on the weight being lifted and other criteria. It's base number is 51 pounds although quite complex with different angles. The reality here is no one should ever muscle a boat. The job of deck hand, properly specified, would never include it. Do it the right way.
 
I know people don't like OSHA and regulatory rules but one thing we learned in designing job procedures is that no job should ever require one to life or move weights over 51 pounds. Tthe National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) has developed a mathematical model that helps predict the risk of injury based on the weight being lifted and other criteria. It's base number is 51 pounds although quite complex with different angles. The reality here is no one should ever muscle a boat. The job of deck hand, properly specified, would never include it. Do it the right way.


Totally agree, but the majority of deck hands don't know that. I could argue to do without dock hands regardless of how nice they are.
 
I avoid dock hands at marinas whenever I can and the effort by most of my crews is somewhat avoided too.

Too many years solo on commercial boats.
 
Always manuver boat to leeward so wind will push you onto the dock.

If marina puts you downwind ask for a different slip. This makes pulling in to a 2 finger slip easy.


I disagree strenuously. Although there are good techniques for getting away from a dock when pinned by the wind, it is always much easier to undock downwind. Unless the forecast is for a wind shift before you plan to leave, I would always choose to dock upwind to make leaving easier.


When our naval architect was sizing the bow thruster, the first question he asked was how strong a wind did I want to be able to dock against. And, as I said before in this thread, even without a thruster, you can always nose the boat in at a 30 degree angle and get a spring line on.


Jim
 
I disagree strenuously. Although there are good techniques for getting away from a dock when pinned by the wind, it is always much easier to undock downwind. Unless the forecast is for a wind shift before you plan to leave, I would always choose to dock upwind to make leaving easier.


When our naval architect was sizing the bow thruster, the first question he asked was how strong a wind did I want to be able to dock against. And, as I said before in this thread, even without a thruster, you can always nose the boat in at a 30 degree angle and get a spring line on.


Jim

:iagree:
 
I disagree strenuously. Although there are good techniques for getting away from a dock when pinned by the wind, it is always much easier to undock downwind. Unless the forecast is for a wind shift before you plan to leave, I would always choose to dock upwind to make leaving easier.


When our naval architect was sizing the bow thruster, the first question he asked was how strong a wind did I want to be able to dock against. And, as I said before in this thread, even without a thruster, you can always nose the boat in at a 30 degree angle and get a spring line on.


Jim


I'll second that. I can put my boat on a face dock against 20 kts, but unless I've got a lot of empty space behind me and a straight run of dock behind me (or some space in front and behind), I can't leave with 20 kts pinning me to the dock.

With no bow thruster, departing with wind pinning me often involves pivoting on a fender to get the bow as far out as I can, then backing off the dock, slowly gaining distance up-wind until I have enough room to either spin the stern into the wind or point the bow up a bit and work forward and back to get further from the dock. My boat gets the bow pinned worse than the stern, which makes it particularly tough to get the bow off the dock against wind without a thruster.
 
With no bow thruster, departing with wind pinning me often involves pivoting on a fender to get the bow as far out as I can, then backing off the dock, slowly gaining distance up-wind until I have enough room to either spin the stern into the wind or point the bow up a bit and work forward and back to get further from the dock. My boat gets the bow pinned worse than the stern, which makes it particularly tough to get the bow off the dock against wind without a thruster.


The classic maneuver, used by big boats, is to go forward pulling against a bow spring with lots of fendering between the bow and the dock and the rudder hard over toward the dock. The spring should be on a loop so that you can slip it easily when you get the stern out far enough to back clear.


This has the advantage over going out bow first that the shape of the bow makes it much easier to fender than the corner of the stern and the boat rotates more easily on it. Also many of us have stern platforms which are more vulnerable than the bow. And, with a boat like the one described above, whose bow gets pinned harder than the stern, you are pushing the easier part to windward.



Jim
 
The classic maneuver, used by big boats, is to go forward pulling against a bow spring with lots of fendering between the bow and the dock and the rudder hard over toward the dock. The spring should be on a loop so that you can slip it easily when you get the stern out far enough to back clear.


This has the advantage over going out bow first that the shape of the bow makes it much easier to fender than the corner of the stern and the boat rotates more easily on it. Also many of us have stern platforms which are more vulnerable than the bow. And, with a boat like the one described above, whose bow gets pinned harder than the stern, you are pushing the easier part to windward.

That's basically what I end up doing, but I typically just swing the stern out with the engines (twins). The limitation is how far I can rotate before hitting something becomes unavoidable due to the significant bow flare and long anchor pulpit. Some docks it's easy, others force backing away at a fairly shallow angle.

The ideal departure is with wind blowing me off or right on the nose where I can swing the bow out just a hair and let the wind move it out, allowing me to slide out almost sideways. Wind on the stern or no wind isn't bad either.
 
Totally agree, but the majority of deck hands don't know that. I could argue to do without dock hands regardless of how nice they are.

Now, in much of Europe when med mooring, you must use dock hands to assist, but they're extremely well trained and helpful and know exactly what to do while also listening to you.
 
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