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Old 01-29-2017, 02:26 PM   #61
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Really what most of us do is piloting, not navigation, per se.
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Old 01-29-2017, 02:42 PM   #62
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Most vessels of any kind in Canada have an obligation to carry and use official charts and publications and to keep them up to date. ..............
So a USA boater intending to do the loop would have to buy Canadian paper charts or stay in the USA?
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Old 01-29-2017, 03:18 PM   #63
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10, or even 5, years ago I might have answered differently...

But we're relatively familiar with our normal boating area, ATONs abound... and we've got a main plotter, laptop plotter, two tablets, and two smartphones aboard... both raster and vector charts on each... and all 6 of those have never crapped out at the same time. And they're all updated as often as available.

As it happens, we do have a chartbook aboard, old, more for showing pax (and reminding myself of the local names of the various fishing grounds) than anything else.

That would change somewhat, when we travel further afield, but even then I'd more likely be downloading the additional Coast Pilot books and maybe shopping for extra guidebooks...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lepke View Post
In Canadian waters , Canadian chart regs require vector charts use. Using raster requires you carry paper as backup. Considering raster is scanned paper, this doesn't make sense to me.
Seems odd to me. Might not have been surprised to maybe hear it the other way around, I guess...

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Old 01-29-2017, 04:41 PM   #64
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No they are not.

.
No, what are not? Who are you disagreeing with and on what?
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Old 01-29-2017, 04:42 PM   #65
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So a USA boater intending to do the loop would have to buy Canadian paper charts or stay in the USA?
Or electronic vector or be under 100 tons and meet the other requirements. Several options available.
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Old 01-29-2017, 10:22 PM   #66
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No, what are not? Who are you disagreeing with and on what?
Charts are not required on vessels under 100 tons.
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Old 01-29-2017, 11:01 PM   #67
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Charts are not required on vessels under 100 tons.
I didn't know there was any disagreement. As you quoted earlier, they're required for all boats except those under 100 tons are not required to have them if they meet the requirements you posted.

I found the section about being the most recent version most interesting. I know many people carrying a lot of old charts around.

Use of Charts
5 (1) Subject to subsection (2), in order to plan and display a ship’s route for an intended voyage and to plot and monitor positions throughout the voyage, the person in charge of the navigation of the ship shall use the most recent edition of a chart that

(a) is issued officially by or on the authority of

(i) the Canadian Hydrographic Service, when the ship is in Canadian waters, and

(ii) the Canadian Hydrographic Service or the government or an authorized hydrographic office or other relevant government institution of a country other than Canada, when the ship is outside Canadian waters;

(b) applies to the immediate area in which the ship is being navigated; and

(c) is, for that area,

(i) the largest scale chart according to the reference catalogue, or

(ii) of a scale that is at least 75 per cent of the scale of the chart referred to in subparagraph (i) and is as complete, accurate, intelligible and up-to-date as that chart.

(2) The person in charge of the navigation of a ship may use the most recent edition of a chart that is the second-largest scale chart for an area according to the reference catalogue where

(a) the scale of the chart is at least 1:400,000 (2.16 nautical miles to the centimetre); and

(b) the ship is

(i) more than five nautical miles from any charted feature or charted depth of water that represents a potential hazard to the ship, or

(ii) within an area for which the largest scale chart, according to the reference catalogue, is primarily

(A) a chart intended for the use of pleasure craft, or

(B) a chart of an anchorage, a river or a harbour that the ship will not transit or enter.

(3) The chart may be in electronic form only if

(a) it is displayed on an ECDIS or, in the case of failure of the ECDIS, on a back-up arrangement; and

(b) the ECDIS

(i) in waters for which an ENC is available, is operated using the ENC,

(ii) in waters for which an ENC is not available, is operated using an RNC,

(iii) when the ECDIS is operating in the RCDS mode, is used in conjunction with paper charts that meet the requirements of subsections (1) and (2), and

(iv) is accompanied by a back-up arrangement.
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Old 01-29-2017, 11:07 PM   #68
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No worries. Misunderstanding on my part.
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Old 01-29-2017, 11:50 PM   #69
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No worries. Misunderstanding on my part.
That's fine. Anything that makes it clearer. You went straight to the source as did I. I just didn't initially quote the full section.

Now, I don't know how someone in an area for the first time could really meet the exclusion requirements. I don't think they're heavily enforced in that regard but can see problems in the event of an accident.
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Old 01-30-2017, 04:18 AM   #70
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Now, I don't know how someone in an area for the first time could really meet the exclusion requirements. I don't think they're heavily enforced in that regard but can see problems in the event of an accident.


For those of us with US flagged vessels and boat in Canadian waters, carrying paper charts seems logical and a requirement. A few months ago there was a long thread on the issues surrounding a US flagged commercial vessel that disastrously ran aground in Northern BC. The court proceedings will indeed involve charting discussions.

A chart book is cheap and easy to stow. The one I bought for all of Puget Sound even came with a DVD so I could fool around on a laptop. Heck, I even had one for the navigable waters from St Louis to Minneapolis.

So are paper charts needed? It depends. The same question applies for other safety gear. I just had my life raft re-packed. Just renewed my Beacon registration. Just received my 2017 Customs sticker. USCG registration due soon. Gotta stay legal.
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Old 01-30-2017, 07:31 AM   #71
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That's fine. Anything that makes it clearer. You went straight to the source as did I. I just didn't initially quote the full section.

Now, I don't know how someone in an area for the first time could really meet the exclusion requirements. I don't think they're heavily enforced in that regard but can see problems in the event of an accident.
Indeed there is not much enforcement depending in which area you are. I cruised from Kingston to Ottawa then spent summer on Ottawa river and did not see much authorities. Saw O.P.D. twice, first it was 2 agents on Rideau Canal who were enjoying slow cruising under the sun. Offered them a beer but they kindly declined Second was a patrol during a very busy day near Montobello who were checking some youngs onboard a small fast cruiser, certainly for alcohol. I guess they check more in lakes areas and st laurence channel.

This said and totally out of subject, looks like O.P.D. don't want to go on the water much. On of their boat is at my marin and just saw him out once in the summer. Once there was a severe accident in front of the marin, the attendant called them, they did not want to come pretexting the accident was on the quebec side of the river! The attendant had to borrow a boat to go and help the injured.
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Old 01-30-2017, 07:40 AM   #72
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Charts are not required on vessels under 100 tons.
OK, so who of us here has a 100 ton boat? I think mine is 10 tons.


Quote:
I didn't know there was any disagreement.

I don't think there was a disagreement but I'm wondering why the Canadian requirement was even posted if it doesn't apply to our boats.


I've read several books describing the Great Loop trips and none of them ever mentioned anything about being required to have Canadian charts in Canada. I'm assuming they used normal chart plotters. They did talk about clearing customs.


That's not saying they didn't have the paper charts, they just didn't mention them.
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Old 01-30-2017, 07:46 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by sunchaser View Post


For those of us with US flagged vessels and boat in Canadian waters, carrying paper charts seems logical and a requirement. A few months ago there was a long thread on the issues surrounding a US flagged commercial vessel that disastrously ran aground in Northern BC. The court proceedings will indeed involve charting discussions.

A chart book is cheap and easy to stow. The one I bought for all of Puget Sound even came with a DVD so I could fool around on a laptop. Heck, I even had one for the navigable waters from St Louis to Minneapolis.

So are paper charts needed? It depends. The same question applies for other safety gear. I just had my life raft re-packed. Just renewed my Beacon registration. Just received my 2017 Customs sticker. USCG registration due soon. Gotta stay legal.
I didn't say paper charts. We conform with electronic charts.
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Old 01-30-2017, 07:47 AM   #74
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OK, so who of us here has a 100 ton boat? I think mine is 10 tons.





I don't think there was a disagreement but I'm wondering why the Canadian requirement was even posted if it doesn't apply to our boats.
Because of post 39 and 41.
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Old 01-30-2017, 07:47 AM   #75
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OK, so who of us here has a 100 ton boat? I think mine is 10 tons.





I don't think there was a disagreement but I'm wondering why the Canadian requirement was even posted if it doesn't apply to our boats.
But it does apply to under 100 tons unless you meet the other requirements. Then, and only then, you're excluded.
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Old 01-30-2017, 08:17 AM   #76
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Do you cruise without paper charts?

I cruised from Key West to Texas with my Garmin plotter and my Garmin app on the iPad. I'm not saying that was the right thing to do, but that's what I did. I have never really used paper charts so I guess that's why I felt comfortable. Looking back however, if my electronics would have failed me going across the Gulf, with no cell service or paper charts, I would have possibly been in trouble figuring out my position. I did have a PLB with me.

Question:
If my boat electronics/GPS failed due to lightening or whatever, would the GPS on my cell phone or iPad still show my location in the middle of the gulf even if I didn't have cell service? I can't remember if the iPad GPS continued working without cell service.
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Old 01-30-2017, 10:20 AM   #77
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I cruised from Key West to Texas with my Garmin plotter and my Garmin app on the iPad. I'm not saying that was the right thing to do, but that's what I did. I have never really used paper charts so I guess that's why I felt comfortable. Looking back however, if my electronics would have failed me going across the Gulf, with no cell service or paper charts, I would have possibly been in trouble figuring out my position. I did have a PLB with me.

Question:
If my boat electronics/GPS failed due to lightening or whatever, would the GPS on my cell phone or iPad still show my location in the middle of the gulf even if I didn't have cell service? I can't remember if the iPad GPS continued working without cell service.

Yes.
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Old 01-30-2017, 11:06 AM   #78
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Old 01-30-2017, 11:14 AM   #79
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My experience after being struck twice in rapid succession is that yes, my phone did work as did my handheld VHF and my back up computer with garmin hockey puck GPS continued to work even though all the hard wired electronics and engine computers were smoked. I suppose it might depend upon the circumstances of the strike but ours worked immediately after the strike.
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Old 01-30-2017, 11:21 AM   #80
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If my boat electronics/GPS failed due to lightening or whatever, would the GPS on my cell phone or iPad still show my location in the middle of the gulf even if I didn't have cell service? I can't remember if the iPad GPS continued working without cell service.

If your electronic device has a GPS chip and if the device is not damaged in the strike, the GPS will work. We use our GPS enabled devices in areas with no Cell service. But if your cell phone does not have a GPS chip, and many phones do not, it requires triangulation with cell towers to locate you. In that case, if no signal, no location irregardless of a lightning strikes.
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