Do you cruise without paper charts?

[Northern Spy]

Really what most of us do is piloting, not navigation, per se.

 

[rwidman]

Most vessels of any kind in Canada have an obligation to carry and use official charts and publications and to keep them up to date. ..............

So a USA boater intending to do the loop would have to buy Canadian paper charts or stay in the USA?

 

[ranger58sb]

10, or even 5, years ago I might have answered differently...

But we're relatively familiar with our normal boating area, ATONs abound... and we've got a main plotter, laptop plotter, two tablets, and two smartphones aboard... both raster and vector charts on each... and all 6 of those have never crapped out at the same time. And they're all updated as often as available.

As it happens, we do have a chartbook aboard, old, more for showing pax (and reminding myself of the local names of the various fishing grounds) than anything else.

That would change somewhat, when we travel further afield, but even then I'd more likely be downloading the additional Coast Pilot books and maybe shopping for extra guidebooks...

In Canadian waters , Canadian chart regs require vector charts use. Using raster requires you carry paper as backup. Considering raster is scanned paper, this doesn't make sense to me.

Seems odd to me. Might not have been surprised to maybe hear it the other way around, I guess...

-Chris

 

[BandB]

No they are not.

.

No, what are not? Who are you disagreeing with and on what?

 

[BandB]

So a USA boater intending to do the loop would have to buy Canadian paper charts or stay in the USA?

Or electronic vector or be under 100 tons and meet the other requirements. Several options available.

 

[Northern Spy]

No, what are not? Who are you disagreeing with and on what?

Charts are not required on vessels under 100 tons.

 

[BandB]

Charts are not required on vessels under 100 tons.

I didn't know there was any disagreement. As you quoted earlier, they're required for all boats except those under 100 tons are not required to have them if they meet the requirements you posted.

I found the section about being the most recent version most interesting. I know many people carrying a lot of old charts around.

Use of Charts
5 (1) Subject to subsection (2), in order to plan and display a ship’s route for an intended voyage and to plot and monitor positions throughout the voyage, the person in charge of the navigation of the ship shall use the most recent edition of a chart that

(a) is issued officially by or on the authority of

(i) the Canadian Hydrographic Service, when the ship is in Canadian waters, and

(ii) the Canadian Hydrographic Service or the government or an authorized hydrographic office or other relevant government institution of a country other than Canada, when the ship is outside Canadian waters;

(b) applies to the immediate area in which the ship is being navigated; and

(c) is, for that area,

(i) the largest scale chart according to the reference catalogue, or

(ii) of a scale that is at least 75 per cent of the scale of the chart referred to in subparagraph (i) and is as complete, accurate, intelligible and up-to-date as that chart.

(2) The person in charge of the navigation of a ship may use the most recent edition of a chart that is the second-largest scale chart for an area according to the reference catalogue where

(a) the scale of the chart is at least 1:400,000 (2.16 nautical miles to the centimetre); and

(b) the ship is

(i) more than five nautical miles from any charted feature or charted depth of water that represents a potential hazard to the ship, or

(ii) within an area for which the largest scale chart, according to the reference catalogue, is primarily

(A) a chart intended for the use of pleasure craft, or

(B) a chart of an anchorage, a river or a harbour that the ship will not transit or enter.

(3) The chart may be in electronic form only if

(a) it is displayed on an ECDIS or, in the case of failure of the ECDIS, on a back-up arrangement; and

(b) the ECDIS

(i) in waters for which an ENC is available, is operated using the ENC,

(ii) in waters for which an ENC is not available, is operated using an RNC,

(iii) when the ECDIS is operating in the RCDS mode, is used in conjunction with paper charts that meet the requirements of subsections (1) and (2), and

(iv) is accompanied by a back-up arrangement.​

 

[Northern Spy]

No worries. Misunderstanding on my part.

 

[BandB]

No worries. Misunderstanding on my part.

That's fine. Anything that makes it clearer. You went straight to the source as did I. I just didn't initially quote the full section.

Now, I don't know how someone in an area for the first time could really meet the exclusion requirements. I don't think they're heavily enforced in that regard but can see problems in the event of an accident.

 

[sunchaser]

Now, I don't know how someone in an area for the first time could really meet the exclusion requirements. I don't think they're heavily enforced in that regard but can see problems in the event of an accident.

For those of us with US flagged vessels and boat in Canadian waters, carrying paper charts seems logical and a requirement. A few months ago there was a long thread on the issues surrounding a US flagged commercial vessel that disastrously ran aground in Northern BC. The court proceedings will indeed involve charting discussions.

A chart book is cheap and easy to stow. The one I bought for all of Puget Sound even came with a DVD so I could fool around on a laptop. Heck, I even had one for the navigable waters from St Louis to Minneapolis.

So are paper charts needed? It depends. The same question applies for other safety gear. I just had my life raft re-packed. Just renewed my Beacon registration. Just received my 2017 Customs sticker. USCG registration due soon. Gotta stay legal.

 

[Lou_tribal]

That's fine. Anything that makes it clearer. You went straight to the source as did I. I just didn't initially quote the full section.

Now, I don't know how someone in an area for the first time could really meet the exclusion requirements. I don't think they're heavily enforced in that regard but can see problems in the event of an accident.

Indeed there is not much enforcement depending in which area you are. I cruised from Kingston to Ottawa then spent summer on Ottawa river and did not see much authorities. Saw O.P.D. twice, first it was 2 agents on Rideau Canal who were enjoying slow cruising under the sun. Offered them a beer but they kindly declined Second was a patrol during a very busy day near Montobello who were checking some youngs onboard a small fast cruiser, certainly for alcohol. I guess they check more in lakes areas and st laurence channel.

This said and totally out of subject, looks like O.P.D. don't want to go on the water much. On of their boat is at my marin and just saw him out once in the summer. Once there was a severe accident in front of the marin, the attendant called them, they did not want to come pretexting the accident was on the quebec side of the river! The attendant had to borrow a boat to go and help the injured.

 

[rwidman]

Charts are not required on vessels under 100 tons.

OK, so who of us here has a 100 ton boat? I think mine is 10 tons.

I didn't know there was any disagreement.

I don't think there was a disagreement but I'm wondering why the Canadian requirement was even posted if it doesn't apply to our boats.


I've read several books describing the Great Loop trips and none of them ever mentioned anything about being required to have Canadian charts in Canada. I'm assuming they used normal chart plotters. They did talk about clearing customs.


That's not saying they didn't have the paper charts, they just didn't mention them.

 

[BandB]

For those of us with US flagged vessels and boat in Canadian waters, carrying paper charts seems logical and a requirement. A few months ago there was a long thread on the issues surrounding a US flagged commercial vessel that disastrously ran aground in Northern BC. The court proceedings will indeed involve charting discussions.

A chart book is cheap and easy to stow. The one I bought for all of Puget Sound even came with a DVD so I could fool around on a laptop. Heck, I even had one for the navigable waters from St Louis to Minneapolis.

So are paper charts needed? It depends. The same question applies for other safety gear. I just had my life raft re-packed. Just renewed my Beacon registration. Just received my 2017 Customs sticker. USCG registration due soon. Gotta stay legal.

I didn't say paper charts. We conform with electronic charts.

 

[Northern Spy]

OK, so who of us here has a 100 ton boat? I think mine is 10 tons.





I don't think there was a disagreement but I'm wondering why the Canadian requirement was even posted if it doesn't apply to our boats.

Because of post 39 and 41.

 

[BandB]

OK, so who of us here has a 100 ton boat? I think mine is 10 tons.





I don't think there was a disagreement but I'm wondering why the Canadian requirement was even posted if it doesn't apply to our boats.

But it does apply to under 100 tons unless you meet the other requirements. Then, and only then, you're excluded.

 

[cardude01]

I cruised from Key West to Texas with my Garmin plotter and my Garmin app on the iPad. I'm not saying that was the right thing to do, but that's what I did. I have never really used paper charts so I guess that's why I felt comfortable. Looking back however, if my electronics would have failed me going across the Gulf, with no cell service or paper charts, I would have possibly been in trouble figuring out my position. I did have a PLB with me.

Question:
If my boat electronics/GPS failed due to lightening or whatever, would the GPS on my cell phone or iPad still show my location in the middle of the gulf even if I didn't have cell service? I can't remember if the iPad GPS continued working without cell service.

 

[Capt.Bill11]

I cruised from Key West to Texas with my Garmin plotter and my Garmin app on the iPad. I'm not saying that was the right thing to do, but that's what I did. I have never really used paper charts so I guess that's why I felt comfortable. Looking back however, if my electronics would have failed me going across the Gulf, with no cell service or paper charts, I would have possibly been in trouble figuring out my position. I did have a PLB with me.

Question:
If my boat electronics/GPS failed due to lightening or whatever, would the GPS on my cell phone or iPad still show my location in the middle of the gulf even if I didn't have cell service? I can't remember if the iPad GPS continued working without cell service.

Yes.

 

[cardude01]

[emoji106][emoji106][emoji106][emoji106]

 

[tadhana]

My experience after being struck twice in rapid succession is that yes, my phone did work as did my handheld VHF and my back up computer with garmin hockey puck GPS continued to work even though all the hard wired electronics and engine computers were smoked. I suppose it might depend upon the circumstances of the strike but ours worked immediately after the strike.

 

[tadhana]

If my boat electronics/GPS failed due to lightening or whatever, would the GPS on my cell phone or iPad still show my location in the middle of the gulf even if I didn't have cell service? I can't remember if the iPad GPS continued working without cell service.

If your electronic device has a GPS chip and if the device is not damaged in the strike, the GPS will work. We use our GPS enabled devices in areas with no Cell service. But if your cell phone does not have a GPS chip, and many phones do not, it requires triangulation with cell towers to locate you. In that case, if no signal, no location irregardless of a lightning strikes.

 

[RBack]

Paper is always in the boat.
Love paper charts. Love the feel, love the fragrance, love the sound when turning page, love the overview, love the looks, love the possibility to draw or make small notes, love the sheer existence of paper charts in the boat.
My boat is simply not complete without paper charts.

But I do pilot the boat in accordance with what the plotter tells me to.
The position is however marked also on the paper chart - perhaps not out of necessity, but just for the fun of it. Furthermore I like to keep the navigation skills somewhat intact and within my memory bank - just for the fun of that thing too.

 

[psneeld]

Does everyone know that you can do navigation skills on notepaper and/or a maneuvering board and take/give the same info and plotting skill from an electronic display without using the navigation program built in?


If you like paper great...there are many ways to approach this unless by law you are required to have paper charts aboard.

 

[BandB]

Does everyone know that you can do navigation skills on notepaper and/or a maneuvering board and take/give the same info and plotting skill from an electronic display without using the navigation program built in?


If you like paper great...there are many ways to approach this unless by law you are required to have paper charts aboard.

There is something about people liking saying that it requires more navigation skills to use paper. Well, it requires more skill to add and multiply without a calculator, but in neither case does the electronic method preclude using those skills. It requires skills to properly utilize electronics as well and some people who continue to use paper charts never fully develop those skills.

In the future there will be people who never learn about paper charts and their ability to navigate won't be better or worse simply because of that. How many people here do celestial navigation? How many have sextants aboard? And my bet is of those who do, they're not depending on celestial navigation but use it in conjunction with other navigation for pleasure.

 

[Jeffrey S]

I wrote an essay, "The Second Most Dangerous Thing Onboard" about paper charts in 2013. Three-plus years later, it's even more true.

That said, Red Head came from the Merchant Marine Academy in Kings Point, NY. It came loaded with hundreds of paper charts. I've come to slightly change my mind. I'm finding the large format charts are wonderful for laying projects on top of. Painting is the best example. I mix all paints on top of a nice, pristine chart so paint and other things don't mess up the work surface below. They are perfect for that use. ...and not dangerous.

 

[Gdavid]

There is something about people liking saying that it requires more navigation skills to use paper. Well, it requires more skill to add and multiply without a calculator, but in neither case does the electronic method preclude using those skills. It requires skills to properly utilize electronics as well and some people who continue to use paper charts never fully develop those skills.

In the future there will be people who never learn about paper charts and their ability to navigate won't be better or worse simply because of that. How many people here do celestial navigation? How many have sextants aboard? And my bet is of those who do, they're not depending on celestial navigation but use it in conjunction with other navigation for pleasure.

I don't believe electronic navigation is a fair comparison to math with a calculator. In order to solve a math problem you still need to understand all of the variables and account for them even if you use a calculator to compute the final answer, with electronic navigation you can easily ignore several significant factors (leeway, current, variation, deviation, . . .) and still arrive at your destination as long as you keep the boat pointed at the next waypoint.

I would guess that the majority of members of this forum started boating before chart plotters became prevalent and wouldn't blink if theirs were to fail while underway but there is a growing number of boaters that have only known boating with the convenience of the ever present "You Are Here" screen staring at them. Another interesting (to me at least) trend I have noticed is first time boaters buying much bigger boats than in the past. Historically, most boaters work their way up from runabouts to cuddy cabins to cabin cruisers in the upper 30 to mid 40' range. Now you have retirees who finally have time to get into boating and can afford to do it comfortably buying a 40' yacht as their first boat. If you start boating in smaller boats you are less likely to leave sight of land until you have been boating for several years and may be in your second or third boat. Now there are first time boat owners buying offshore capable boats and the electronic packages make it child's play to find your way wherever your heart takes you. Nothing right or wrong about it, just interesting to me.

 

[BandB]

I don't believe electronic navigation is a fair comparison to math with a calculator. In order to solve a math problem you still need to understand all of the variables and account for them even if you use a calculator to compute the final answer, with electronic navigation you can easily ignore several significant factors (leeway, current, variation, deviation, . . .) and still arrive at your destination as long as you keep the boat pointed at the next waypoint.

I would guess that the majority of members of this forum started boating before chart plotters became prevalent and wouldn't blink if theirs were to fail while underway but there is a growing number of boaters that have only known boating with the convenience of the ever present "You Are Here" screen staring at them. Another interesting (to me at least) trend I have noticed is first time boaters buying much bigger boats than in the past. Historically, most boaters work their way up from runabouts to cuddy cabins to cabin cruisers in the upper 30 to mid 40' range. Now you have retirees who finally have time to get into boating and can afford to do it comfortably buying a 40' yacht as their first boat. If you start boating in smaller boats you are less likely to leave sight of land until you have been boating for several years and may be in your second or third boat. Now there are first time boat owners buying offshore capable boats and the electronic packages make it child's play to find your way wherever your heart takes you. Nothing right or wrong about it, just interesting to me.

Yes, electronics have made it easier. Yes, boat handling is easier too with joysticks, with thrusters. I see nothing negative about either. The attitude that would lead people to never learn any underlying principles or any of the factors you mentioned is the same attitude that would have not led them to learn more on paper charts either. There are many people out there who use paper charts and have always just followed the magenta line. Whether one chooses to become knowledgeable and learn more or not isn't a matter of the media on which they get their charts.

Whether there's a change in the buying pattern of today's retirees vs. at an earlier time or not, I have no idea. I will say this, that those who did it (and it can be anything you make it) 20 years ago will always see those doing it today as different. As you said, not better or worse, but different.

I see people in their 20's on the lake and notice how bad some are in their boating habits and knowledge. Then I think. When I do, I realize there were bad boaters when I was in my 20's, bad ones when I was in my teens. I have to compare this generation to the entire previous generation, not just to the knowledge I and some others had at that age.

I am disturbed by all those using outdated charts, paper or electronic. I noticed the clause in the Canadian rules requiring the most recent ones. However, ultimately whether one uses paper or electronic or nothing and how one navigates really doesn't impact my safety, but that of the person and those aboard their boat. Understanding the rules and etiquette of boating and how to handle their boat, being aware of their surroundings, being sober and rested, are all factors more critical to other boaters.

A customer of a friend of mine recently called and asked him to pick up his boat in West Palm and return it to the marina in Fort Lauderdale. He had taken his girlfriend to Bimini for a couple of days. He didn't take the gulf stream into consideration apparently. Somehow he ended up at West Palm instead of Fort Lauderdale. He said something about following other boats. He had both paper and electronic charts aboard.

 

[RBack]

There is something about people liking saying that it requires more navigation skills to use paper. Well, it requires more skill to add and multiply without a calculator, but in neither case does the electronic method preclude using those skills. It requires skills to properly utilize electronics as well and some people who continue to use paper charts never fully develop those skills.

In the future there will be people who never learn about paper charts and their ability to navigate won't be better or worse simply because of that. How many people here do celestial navigation? How many have sextants aboard? And my bet is of those who do, they're not depending on celestial navigation but use it in conjunction with other navigation for pleasure.

Not sure if those posts referred to my post, but surely there was no intention from my side to downplay plotters or navigation skills in relation to plotters. The only thing I intended to say, is that I try to keep the methods of navigation with paper charts intact in my head. I just want to somehow put a relation between actual position, course and the static map/chart/paper. Just because it interests me, it's a part of my personal relation to the sea. It has nothing to do with what's good or bad. Forgive me for being old fashioned I'm a son of a captain and later sea pilot. I was out with him during several occasions and being especially indoctrinated by the pilots and pilot boat captains.

I fully understand those who do not use any paper charts. At times I don't use them much either.

One possible problem with electronic [plotter] navigation can however be when there are people relying totally on the plotter. In theory it's possible to drive the boat without the eyes leaving the plotter screen. You don't have to carefully monitor the surroundings in order to know where you are. You don't have to memorise those surroundings and be perceptive of the whereabouts. That's something that comes natural with a paper chart which constantly needs to be compared with the surroundings. Today people can start driving boats and more or less see them as "video games" - if I may express myself a little bluntly. This can lead to a false feeling of safety and you loose some amount of awareness of whats going on around the boat - thus possibly not foreseeing potential dangers.

Loosing contact with the relation between navigation and positioning, has even been an issue in commercial shipping (and perhaps other professional environments as well). Accidents has happened when crew members of (for instance) cargo ships have failed to see when the navigation systems have gone mad. But to be fair - navigation is much more safe today, thanks to plotters and other marvelous equipment.

So... It's of course not normally a problem with the actual equipment or the technical development itself. As with everything it's mostly a matter of handling the equipment - understanding how it should be used and how to relate to it. But this thread wasn't about that particular matter. So I'm drifting off into OT.

 

[rwidman]

It should go without saying that what you see with your own eyes and what you hear with your own ears should take precedence over what you see on a chart plotter or telephone. If you don't understand that, you shouldn't be driving a boat.

 

[BandB]

One thing I found in training in business was that to run parallel systems, old and new, slowed the pace of learning and adapting. I do think that some people who are dependent on paper charts haven't fully learned the capabilities of all their electronics and/or haven't kept up with new electronics. I can't prove this but it also seems logical that they would be the ones updating electronics less frequently. So they end up with outdated information on their chart plotter and outdated charts. I've heard how for some cruising areas nothing ever changes. However, it only takes one notice to mariners that you don't have. Some areas do shift more than others, but the frequency of notices is huge.

I'm not going to suggest or campaign for everyone to toss their paper charts overboard. However, I think all would be wise at least to read Jeffrey's article. It's very thought provoking even if you don't agree with parts of it or it's conclusion.

Duckworks - The Second Most Dangerous Thing Onboard

 

[BandB]

Yes, people can drive the boat without looking up from the screen. However, people have made mistakes while busy looking at paper charts too. I will even admit before GPS was prevalent driving a car while trying to look at a map.