Do it my way, or no way at all attitudes...

[Wayfarer]

"The sea is selective, slow in recognition of effort and aptitude, but fast in sinking the unfit." Had to memorize that in the maritime school I went to.

Oh Jesus, I just had flashbacks... 1874! SIR, A VERY GOOD YEAR, SIR!

If anyone needs me, I'll be in the shower in the fetal position, sucking my thumb a little bit.

I'm fine.

It's fine.

As to the OP, I still feel like a new guy when it comes to most aspects of boat ownership. I'm pretty confident with boat handling and navigating, but as far as maintenance and repair... I still haven't been through MOST of the big stuff yet.

I tend to offer any 'tips or tricks' with reluctance and many grains of salt. I tend to assume that the other person knows more than I do.

 

[rgano]

I had the good luck of studying the art of ship handling and the specifics of many different aspects of ship/boat care in a professional book-taught environment before putting that knowledge to the test in the practical arena afloat. Then I got a lot of OJT. After all that, I figured I had enough experience to play around with various ways to handle different issues at which point I began to "get away with stuff." So that's the method; lean the right way, wrong way, and the start getting away with it, just as Peggy says. Typically, when a new captain comes aboard a US Navy ship he/she handles the ship in and out of moorings a couple of times right off the bat to get used to a new ship and to dust off skills after several years away from ship handing. After that it is extremely rare the skipper ever handles the ship directly preferring instead to coach less experienced officers into becoming competent ship drivers. Sometimes the younger folks actually show the skipper a new twist on how to do it.

 

[High Wire]

Most of the guys and gals on here try to contribute something to the problem posed by an OP. Sooner or later someone nails it. It’s more of a helpful attitude than a “must do it my way” control attitude. If we can help, great. Always worth a shot.

 

[ghost]

Then of course there is the context of the situation. Being open minded about a new right way just before a storm or new operation might not be the best time to experiment. When multiple people work as a team, the “right way” is the one that people have often trained to and can do so with a minimum of needed communication. The “right way” in that context doesn’t need to be the best way, simply agreed upon to be most effective.

Yet being stuck to the “right way” when a new component, technology or new people enter the equation is a great way to fall behind.

Plus let’s add a side helping of the fact that humans as a group tend to credit themselves as knowing more than others. Humans actually believe they can know more about the information upon which others are making decisions, than the others themselves. (Though admittedly if you show me a fellow with both a headset and over use of his bow thruster, I’ll cop that attitude pretty quickly). This trait rears it’s ugly head independent of the actual knowledge level of either party. Which is also a component of the problem where those with the most knowledge often get leapfrogged when they stop learning, yet still “feel” as though they learned to be open minded a d practice it often.

Confidence it seems is a double edged instrument.

Show me somebody that is not conflicted in their opinion in some way, I’ll show you somebody who is over confident in their belief system and ability to weigh multiple truths.

It’s hard being a human. But luckily I have lots of experience screwing it up. That should get me something, somewhere, some day.

 

[toocoys]

... but when I am captain, I make the decisions.

I tried that, and the spousal unit just laughed.... and laughed... and laughed.



















...and laughed.

 

[markpierce]

When keeping my opinion/comment to myself, I'm never contradicted. But I don't always do that, whenever I can get a word in edgewise.

 

[FF]

The hardest thing for folks to understand is that BESTITIS is a Disease.

 

[Peter B]

I'm not sure whether this fits in with the title of the thread or not, but I think in a way it does.

One thing I am sure of, in a way I'm kinda relieved I hadn't joined such a forum as this before I bought our boat. Even though there is so much good advice to be found on here.

Why..? Because if I had, and, (here is where I think it does fit in with the title), if I had described the boat, and the shape it was in in detail, many on here would have advised me to run, and run fast, as they have advised many others, and meant it in the nicest possible way.

It was a fixer upper all right. I have to admit that. However, I was so keen to get back into boating, having started out in sail boats, that I cashed in some super when able at 55, and bought the best I could afford, and which most matched the design we, my wife and I, aspired to. She held out for a sedan style, with larger aft cockpit, rather than aft cabin, and she was right.

There was heaps wrong with it. It had all the issues a Taiwan built CHB 34 typically had. Some partly fixed by the PO, some not. Never-the-less I had a lot of fun bring it back to as good a condition as I could. Everything worked..! And...we didn't have to finance it..!

Sure, there have been many times, looking at the pics of boats used and new on here that lucky members have posted, and wished I could have afforded a newer and better boat, but it was not to be. At least we were out there and doing it.

To afford a newer and better boat I'd have had to wait until I retired - which is what many coming on here do. And that often worries me. Because if we had done that, which would have been 16 years later, it would have coincided with the time my wife developed some health issues which would have made boating impossible. None of us knows what lies around life's corners, after all.

So, while boatless now, I enjoy the forum, and helping where I can, and rejoice in the fact we did take the plunge that many would not have. That many would have been talked out of, and we would not have enjoyed cruising the length and breadth of our lovely Moreton Bay, here in Queensland, for the sixteen years that we did. As the lawyers say...my case rests...and it rests easier than it might have, if we had not done what we did - when we did. Just sayin'...

 

[Hippocampus]

Old saying “there are 10 ways to do anything on a boat…..9 of them are wrong”.

For me one of the pleasures of having crew or crewing is being exposed to different ways of doing things. You examine it, learn it and if works better it becomes part of your skill set.

Another favorite saying is “ when you stop learning they better have thrown dirt in your face ….or they soon will”.

You see it in all aspects of life. Those who have enough ego strength and intelligence to know they don’t know what they don’t know and are flexible enough in their thinking to accept new knowledge.

I was tying stopper knots for decades one way. A guy i crewed for showed me another. It’s prettier, easier to untie but works better. Great. Now do it that way.
Was at Disney with the kids waiting for a bus to get fixed. Chatted up the driver who was messing with it. No teeth, difficult accent to understand, hadn’t had a wash in several weeks. But he taught me a slew of diesel diagnostics. My wife at that time was totally pissed I was talking with him.”it’s beneath you”. The hell with that. The guy had an amazing skill set. Some people judge the vessel not the wine inside so miss so many opportunities to learn. Others can’t abstract that a given protocol may make no sense. They can’t deviate from the book or rules. Can’t understand why it may be better to deviate from ABYC or supersede COLREGS by just stopping or running parallel until you absorb and process the situation. “We will pass as a one toot” when it a complex situation and much to process. Thinking is here are the rules and I just follow them. Not here is the situation and I do what’s safest.

 

[slowgoesit]

Me personally.... I'm still on 'righty tighty, lefty loosey.' Works every time.
And if it doesn't, go the other way.

Not if you're mounting wire wheels on a Triumph Spitfire.

Just had to comment because even that truism has exceptions!

 

[Fish53]

As someone who's both infallible and has never spent much time hanging around in marinas I've avoided this situation up until I got on this site. It must be an affliction that only pleasure boaters are susceptible to as I've rarely if ever seen it professionally. I assume that's why I haven't always reacted to it with as much grace as I might have when encountering it here.

I get that the majority of pleasure boaters by comparison have significantly less experience, what with careers, family and other diversions it's almost unavoidable and certainly understandable. Also most professionals have had at least some formal education in the maritime field as well as having OTJT by experienced mariners so there exists some level of standardization unseen for the most part in the pleasure world. Sure there's more than one way to do things that work most times but there is usually a best way that works all the time, that's the method most professionals use. I think that's part of the issue here, as has been said a little knowledge is sometimes worse than none at all. I don't mean that as a slight (although some will chose to take it that way) but simply that from a professional perspective there are way more divergent opinions here making it sometimes difficult to reach a consensus. Of course there's also the natural desire to take part in a conversation, after all that's why I'm here.

 

[psneeld]

Another topic of it depends.

It depends on the subject to a great degree.

Not sure if any profession totally agrees on everything...and thats where any discussion can end fairly quickly because its a well understood basic or rise to heated debate over variables.

I thing most long TF threads are the result in less than specific questions or premises, thus everyone might be forming different responses based on different interpretations of the OP.

I get there is a lot of mentoring and copying techniques in every profession, yet there are areas subject to interpretation and personal experience/background that cause divergence from another's solution.

 

[Fish53]

Another topic of it depends.

It depends on the subject to a great degree.

Not sure if any profession totally agrees on everything...and thats where any discussion can end fairly quickly because its a well understood basic or rise to heated debate over variables.

I thing most long TF threads are the result in less than specific questions or premises, thus everyone might be forming different responses based on different interpretations of the OP.

I get there is a lot of mentoring and copying techniques in every profession, yet there are areas subject to interpretation and personal experience/background that cause divergence from another's solution.

I see what your saying but pleasure boating isn't a profession it's a sport or activity hence lacks standards or even any requirement that someone know anything about it before engaging in it.

 

[Alaskaflyer]

"The sea is selective, slow in recognition of effort and aptitude, but fast in sinking the unfit." Had to memorize that in the maritime school I went to.

In the engineering world we say that "code is written in blood". Safety code, not computer code...computer code is written RedBull I think.

In the safety world there is a concept of failing good vs. failing lucky. Failing good is when you had enough knowledge to predict the failure, and it still happened, but at least you were able to put in controls to mitigate the risks beforehand.

Failing lucky is when the failure was unexpected, or the controls in place were inadequate or didn't work properly, and the the only way someone didn't get hurt or "blowned up real good" is by sheer luck.

Risk is merely the product of likelihood and consequence. If you have the experience or understanding, to predict likelihood and consequence, it is possible to lower risk.

If you don't have the experience or understanding, you have the possibility of higher risks to you and others. This is one of the reasons we have rules.

So yeah, in a way, knowing the rules is one way to mitigate risk, but understanding why the rules exist is often a better way.

You pooh-poohed the COLREGS earlier in a thread. That indicates that you not only don't know the rules, but you don't understand the need for them either.

I think Will Rogers said, "There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."

Personally, I believe we have way too many rules and laws, and not enough understanding. Because we have so many rules and laws, it diminishes the important laws, and leads to discretionary following and selective enforcing of all of them.

And yes, the "my way or no way at all" type of people often lack understanding. I'm not big on post-modernist philosophy, but this one from Foucault seems to fit. “People know what they do; frequently they know why they do what they do; but what they don't know is what what they do does.”

Here here.

My only quibble with you is there are so many laws and regs because so many lack the ability or perhaps more properly the capability to understand.

 

[psneeld]

I see what your saying but pleasure boating isn't a profession it's a sport or activity hence lacks standards or even any requirement that someone know anything about it before engaging in it.

True..... my point was more that there are even different ways to accomplish tasks/missions as a professional.... some have clearly a "best way" ....but many do not.

Usually only things governed by strict rules funnel many minds into thinking similarly.

I don't want this to turn into a nitpicking session on all sides....I just wanted to point out my opposition to the mostly only 3 ways to do something comment which only goes to making some think its true and make jobs harder for those trying to understand the many variables in boating and boating maintenance.

 

[LovetoBoat]

Usually only things governed by strict rules funnel many minds into thinking similarly.

In my limited experience...



Rules without enforcement are meaningless until you get caught which as we all know is very rare - it is more after the fact that you messed up and someone needs to be blamed are the rules then enforced...

 

[healhustler]

With regard to boating, even in the face of what may have been a trove of different approaches expressed by others, I’ve ended up doing most things my way. I can’t think of a single example that I didn’t make mistakes.

Somewhere here, there is likely the experience that could lead me away from error if I listened. Dividing the ego-static from wisdom (sometimes in the same sentence) is not all that easy, and is probably why I choose my way (and error) so often.

 

[Gdavid]

With regard to boating, even in the face of what may have been a trove of different approaches expressed by others, I’ve ended up doing most things my way. I can’t think of a single example that I didn’t make mistakes.

Somewhere here, there is likely the experience that could lead me away from error if I listened. Dividing the ego-static from wisdom (sometimes in the same sentence) is not all that easy, and is probably why I choose my way (and error) so often.

I am a big fan of your profile pic and the imagined adventures of the boldest Krogen Manatee afloat. This post about mistakes next to the Manatee in the Southern Ocean is classic. Well done sir.

 

[SteveK]

With regard to boating, even in the face of what may have been a trove of different approaches expressed by others, I’ve ended up doing most things my way. I can’t think of a single example that I didn’t make mistakes.

Somewhere here, there is likely the experience that could lead me away from error if I listened. Dividing the ego-static from wisdom (sometimes in the same sentence) is not all that easy, and is probably why I choose my way (and error) so often.

Look Larry, from now on I want you to only take my advice,

My advice is "Do it your way" Can you handle that?

 

[Hippocampus]

Think there’s great merit to what bothe PS and Fish say but also think.
There’s a desire among recreational and professional mariners to stay alive. That necessitates certain skills. The nature of those skills usually increases as the activity becomes more ambitious especially if self reliance is also required. I’ve had deck officers totally unhelpful on mechanical stuff and have had below deck people totally unhelpful on comms, weather and helming. Skill set travels with the job. The job is very different depending upon the activity. I’ve learned huge amounts from both but small vessel cruising is a different skill set than what the pros do.

Do like military, engineers, medical and generally goal directed people as crew or captains. Less ego, more interested in learning and more use to just dealing with the stark reality. Ocean doesn’t care what you did on land or who you are. Just what you brought out on the sea. Often you get one shot to do it right. Muddling through often isn’t an option.

 

[psneeld]

In my limited experience...



Rules without enforcement are meaningless until you get caught which as we all know is very rare - it is more after the fact that you messed up and someone needs to be blamed are the rules then enforced...

What you quoted of mine is what I believe Fish and others allude to is that if you know and understand a very concise set of rules, like the COLREGs .... one tends to follow them.

The more experience one gets, the more one tends to focus on others that seem to be good examples of how to follow those rules.

A cross between mentoring and following the leader.

I am not sure all that many rules are meaningless...lots of people obey laws without ever breaking them.

My experienced as a multi decade instructor in boating....its more ignorance of what to do than it is arrogance in ignoring the rule....though there are those too....

 

[Jmarsh203]

Very interesting conversation so far, I think fish53 put it out there about as well as can be said. Something I’ve noticed is The difference in skill level in professional Mariners is very marginal, there is always a guy who stands out as having exceptional enclosed spaces boat handling skills or some other excellent skill in a group of professionals, having the right touch so to speak but even then across the board most professional commercial captains and crew are quite skilled and have a fairly across the board skill set that allows them to go most places and do quite well. On the other hand Pleasure boaters including many experienced pleasure boaters and professional pleasure boating captains seem to be quite across the board in a bad way in skill level since there is no set standard. Another thing is stuff like colregs is not really enforced upon pleasure boaters, it was put in place to regulate the commercial mariners so there was an international standard when visiting other countries and for the most part that is where the powers that be tend to spend the time and money inspecting and enforcing. . They should be enforced on all but they are not and many pleasure boaters get away with breaking them on a regular basis most of the time not even knowing they are because again there are no set standards for pleasure craft. Colregs like any rules are rarely enforced (not really a widespread boat police out there at every intersection) until there is an accident in which case colregs is a as much a shield for the informed and compliant as it is a pain in the ass for the people who are not informed or comply.

 

[psneeld]

Not sure how one lumps professional mariners together any more than other groups of people.

In the USA, the USCG licenses mariners on not only many levels but on entirely different skill sets and even geographic locations.

And like most professions, once pigeon holed for decades, those skills soar and probably others wane.

Some recreational boaters, many right here if they truly live up to their posts, are very knowledgeable and capable. They may not have tickets or get paid to be on the water...but they may know as much as some beginner, lower level license pros.

 

[HTurner]

 

[Fish53]

True..... my point was more that there are even different ways to accomplish tasks/missions as a professional.... some have clearly a "best way" ....but many do not.

Usually only things governed by strict rules funnel many minds into thinking similarly.

I don't want this to turn into a nitpicking session on all sides....I just wanted to point out my opposition to the mostly only 3 ways to do something comment which only goes to making some think its true and make jobs harder for those trying to understand the many variables in boating and boating maintenance.

I agree that there is frequently more than one way to accomplish a task successfully, especially when not under duress. That's my point about the difference between professional and pleasure. It's better to train and do things one way with that being the method that works under all conditions. This is why after my several years on here some of my suggestions are seen as too extreme, and they are for the average boater in average or better conditions, I'm just trained that way and as such it's how I feel most comfortable.

 

[toocoys]

One thing I am sure of, in a way I'm kinda relieved I hadn't joined such a forum as this before I bought our boat. Even though there is so much good advice to be found on here.

Why..? Because if I had, and, (here is where I think it does fit in with the title), if I had described the boat, and the shape it was in in detail, many on here would have advised me to run, and run fast, as they have advised many others, and meant it in the nicest possible way.

I really wish I hadn't been forum friendly when we bought our boat. We have gas engines so you can imagine how much we were told to bypass it and run. We still get told to run. I was just told how foolish we are for having gas engines over the weekend. I get really tired of it actually.

 

[toocoys]

Here here.

My only quibble with you is there are so many laws and regs because so many lack the ability or perhaps more properly the capability to understand.

There are so many laws and regs because, at least in the US, we live in a litigious society where it's always someone else's fault and liability. Run your boat into a dock, not your fault, there wasn't enough signage so pay up.

 

[BruceK]

...Me personally.... I'm still on 'righty tighty, lefty loosey.' Works every time.
And if it doesn't, go the other way.

As learned, removing and refitting wheels on an Alfa Romeo.

 

[KnotYet]

As learned, removing and refitting wheels on an Alfa Romeo.

Or a '68 Dodge Dart, for that matter!

 

[Seevee]

Well......
Rules and laws are one thing... and they need to be obeyed.


But opinions are like AHs... everyone has one. And I have no problem with someone's opinions but have not issue it that's not my belief. We can agree to disagree, as long as it's safe and within the regs. Outside of that, I'll have an issue.