ProMaritime
Senior Member
There is always only a few workable solutions to every situation, problem, issue, etc., both mechanical and personal. And there is always one that is the best. Try to find out what tht is.
Do it my way, or no way at all attitudes...
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If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
ProMaritime
Senior Member
"My way or the highway" is also known as the "not invented here" attitude. I have encountered it many times in my 77 years. It rarely produces a desirable result.
Mark Laurnen
Senior Member
“Good judgement comes from experience … experience comes from bad judgement.”
Mark Laurnen
Senior Member
“Experience is what you get when you don’t get what you’re expecting.”
OldDan1943
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When you are on your boat, you are the captain, do it the way you want.
On my boat, I am the captain, I will do things the way I want, live with it.
If we are sitting around talking about a problem or situation, you are basically asking for an opinion. You get an opinion you do not like, ignore it and move on. No need to pour fuel on the fire.
In here, you are stumped with a problem and seek a solution, every answer you get is someones' opinion.
On my boat, I am the captain, I will do things the way I want, live with it.
If we are sitting around talking about a problem or situation, you are basically asking for an opinion. You get an opinion you do not like, ignore it and move on. No need to pour fuel on the fire.
In here, you are stumped with a problem and seek a solution, every answer you get is someones' opinion.
So if I see huge flames shooting out of the windows of someone's boat and in my opinion the boats on fire I should just keep my opinion to myself?
OldDan1943
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A fire is not an opinion, it is a fact.
firehoser75
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While I mostly agree with what Dan is saying, a lot of it is truly situational. Sometimes, time is not much of a factor. Then, much discussion can be had, all input considered, and a group decision, or "leader led" decision (using the input) can be made. Same for looking for "ways to do it" type of advice from other boaters. Consider all info, filter it using various methods, and use or try out what sounds (or looks) good for your particular situation.
However, sometimes time is important. Sometimes having everyone work together to achieve the ends is very important.
Sometimes trying to implement multiple plans (methods of doing something) at once can lead to big problems, including safety problems. Often in these last situations, working together on one plan is the "best method", even if it turns out (often in hindsight) that there was a better way (plan possible).In the Fire Service, we used to train our Officers that incident response MUST BE COORDINATED (Incident Commander). There might be many "acceptable" ways to "fight that fire", but we only implemented one way. The way the IC wanted. The "Plan" was usually adaptable, but changes had to be effectively communicated. Sometimes, consultation could still be used and considered, other times, there was no time! However, if every Officer implemented their own plan of action, we called that CHAOS
!In my early career, before formal training in Incident Command and formal strategy and tactics were taught routinely to Officers, I have seen the Chaos version first hand, and it is not pretty
In my opinion, this is at least sometimes mostly applicable to boating.
So the difference between fact and opinion is the quantity of information? At what point precisely does opinion become fact? My point here is that on this site there is certainly a lot of opinion but there's also plenty of facts and sometimes the difference between them is more based on emotion rather than information.
OldDan1943
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When the fire starts blistering my back sides, that is fact.
It would seem you and I will just have to agree to disagree. The discussion will never change our minds.
psneeld
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When the fire starts blistering my back sides, that is fact.
It would seem you and I will just have to agree to disagree. The discussion will never change our minds.
"disagree" on what? I asked a question.
It's true that sometimes the blind lack information.
SteveK
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Also true at times the sighted cannot see what is before them
psneeld
Guru
I'm not sure that is really the point of the blind men and the elephant.
We all lack information in just about everything we do.
But yes, just like the elephant story....you don't always need all the info to guess "elephant". But getting info from others may be critical to your decision.
So experience helps and lets you guess easier/more correctly...but only if you have enough or the right pieces of info.
I'm not sure getting just enough information to "guess elephant" is actually getting enough information in a more critical context. Personally I've tried to stay away from guessing when engaged in an unforgiving activity. I believe the original issue of this thread was those who insist on their facts or opinions being the only valid ones. My question is simply when does an opinion become a fact, when is that fact irrefutable and who does or should decide? Sorry to sound so rigid but sometimes calm is brought by clarity.
Hippocampus
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First boat I was on was a very large Wm.Fife ketch when I was a teen. Fell in love. Everyone else on her was way more knowledgeable than me. Then nose to the grindstone so no money nor time until training completed. Then the usual conflict between other obligations and sailing. Still learned early on just about everyone has something to teach me. Trick is to find out what that is. Slowly over the years went through the common progression. Day sailing, beer can racing, one design, ocean racing, coastal cruising, passage making and international cruising.
This I learned. Each activity is a different skill set. In each activity there’s always something new to learn. There’s no difference dying in any activity. You’re just as dead.
Crew and captains come in different favors. For crew I’d rather have a total newbie with an open mind, reasonable intelligence who is an active listener and will follow directions.
Some of my best crew have been newbie women. No testosterone, ego driven behavior. Scared enough to follow protocol and not ashamed to ask questions or for help if a situation they aren’t comfortable with arises.
Some of the worst crew have been highly successful people in their dirt lives with a smattering of knowledge but view it as an affront if you correct them. Also see that in professional mariners operating outside their area of experience.
On the captain side there are those who are disrespectful to the experience, knowledge and experience of their crew. Or insensitive, unaware or uncaring of the health, mood, concerns and thoughts of their crew. Even big boats are small. A cohesive, centered, goal directed crew makes for a safe boat even in adversity and a memorial passage.
At this point I’m still in touch with folks I’ve crewed for or crewed for me years and years later. Many are friends outside the boating experience. I’m blessed with having friends much more experienced wiser and knowledgeable than me. The key is to be a sponge for experience and knowledge. For some they figure out what suffices once and they’re done. For others they know there’s more to learn. You choose which one you are and which ones you choose to hang with.
This I learned. Each activity is a different skill set. In each activity there’s always something new to learn. There’s no difference dying in any activity. You’re just as dead.
Crew and captains come in different favors. For crew I’d rather have a total newbie with an open mind, reasonable intelligence who is an active listener and will follow directions.
Some of my best crew have been newbie women. No testosterone, ego driven behavior. Scared enough to follow protocol and not ashamed to ask questions or for help if a situation they aren’t comfortable with arises.
Some of the worst crew have been highly successful people in their dirt lives with a smattering of knowledge but view it as an affront if you correct them. Also see that in professional mariners operating outside their area of experience.
On the captain side there are those who are disrespectful to the experience, knowledge and experience of their crew. Or insensitive, unaware or uncaring of the health, mood, concerns and thoughts of their crew. Even big boats are small. A cohesive, centered, goal directed crew makes for a safe boat even in adversity and a memorial passage.
At this point I’m still in touch with folks I’ve crewed for or crewed for me years and years later. Many are friends outside the boating experience. I’m blessed with having friends much more experienced wiser and knowledgeable than me. The key is to be a sponge for experience and knowledge. For some they figure out what suffices once and they’re done. For others they know there’s more to learn. You choose which one you are and which ones you choose to hang with.
OP
OP
toocoys
Guru
I truly believe you're right with that, seems most of what's fact these days is simply bought and paid for. Material possessions being more of an indicator of intelligence than anything else, "they're successful so they must be smarter than me".
psneeld
Guru
You are playing right into the elephant analogy.
In anything from some electrical questions to determining when opinion becomes fact.....
First things first. Most people on here are pretty smart....maybe all for all I really know.
The trouble is we see things in our minds eye that are rarely satisfied even with a 1000 short posts in a thread. They are tidbits of info and often don't contain all the info why someone is posting them that the person has locked away in their brain.
Good luck with ever getting all the info you need or giving all the info you want to in a forum of "sound bytes"....the same problem that plagues our entire civilization in the electronic world.
Even this post will get blowback despite my effort to explain my point of view.
I don't know if that's "playing into the elephant analogy" as it's more an issue of the propagation of limited information, you would think the blind would pool their observations and do a bit more investigation. I do see and agree with you that it's very difficult to actually form a question or an answer that's meaningful in a simple forum like this.
psneeld
Guru
Exactly...the blind man and the elephant is all about them not pooling their info and thus seeing the big picture through even less than a straw.
We all tend to see and focus our limited (some more than others) experience on an issue that is very limited in detailed explanation (the nature of almost any post).
Thus when some threads get enough posters and links all pointing towards a common theme, the picture becomes clearer and more likely the group thinks facts are revealed and truths are acknowledged. It's usually a struggle till then unless a very simple question or statement is well explained in post #1.
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Hippocampus
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According to the psychological theory of transactional analysis any interaction between any human beings is colored by
Your preconceived judgments about the other, the subject and your knowledge base.
Your internal mood at the time, your internal state of health and comfort or discomfort.
Your goals and the other person(s) goals from the interaction.
Everyone here collects judgments about others from their postings. They’re posting on one thread may not be representative of their thinking or knowledge on another but we tend to lump them together so unfortunately we may discount salient information they offer. Similarly if we “catch an attitude” about them from the tenor of their posts we may discount everything they say.
So beyond the elephant think forums present two problems.
The nature of human communications as noted above.
And as Marshall Mcluhan pointed out most human communication is non verbal.
Your preconceived judgments about the other, the subject and your knowledge base.
Your internal mood at the time, your internal state of health and comfort or discomfort.
Your goals and the other person(s) goals from the interaction.
Everyone here collects judgments about others from their postings. They’re posting on one thread may not be representative of their thinking or knowledge on another but we tend to lump them together so unfortunately we may discount salient information they offer. Similarly if we “catch an attitude” about them from the tenor of their posts we may discount everything they say.
So beyond the elephant think forums present two problems.
The nature of human communications as noted above.
And as Marshall Mcluhan pointed out most human communication is non verbal.
SteveK
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transactional analysis ............
Some have changed that first impression, while others work hard to maintain it.
During talk on the dock I have not found any of the keyboard commandos on forums.
Some have changed that first impression, while others work hard to maintain it.
During talk on the dock I have not found any of the keyboard commandos on forums.
OP
OP
toocoys
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That probably says more about you and who you surround yourself with, than it does anyone else, because they're out there - keyboards or no keyboards.
Hippocampus
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Have even better luck when we are on a boat together for awhile. Or bending elbows together.
firehoser75
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Fish,
Personally I believe (opinion, not fact), that we are all "blind", at least to a point. We all have "blind spots" so to speak. As many have said, limited info about the situation, the nature of forums, etc. Many factors involved, and often not the least of which, no matter your training, knowledge, or even experience, (even on a subject where you are considered an "expert"), no one "knows it all".
We can all learn something "new" or another good way to do something. However, it does require an "open mind" and sometimes that is where we fail. :lol:
RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
To quote the British actor, David Niven, in his book "The Moon's a Balloon" (1971)...
"You lousy bums, you and your stinking language, you think I know f*** nothing, well let me tell you— I know F*** ALL!”
To quote the British actor, David Niven, in his book "The Moon's a Balloon" (1971)...
"You lousy bums, you and your stinking language, you think I know f*** nothing, well let me tell you— I know F*** ALL!”
