Do it my way, or no way at all attitudes...

[Seevee]

I really wish I hadn't been forum friendly when we bought our boat. We have gas engines so you can imagine how much we were told to bypass it and run. We still get told to run. I was just told how foolish we are for having gas engines over the weekend. I get really tired of it actually.

Toocoys,


I'll certainly side with the folks that told you not to get gassers.. unless you never leave the dock. Get used to it.

 

[HeadMistress]

I don't want this to turn into a nitpicking session on all sides....I just wanted to point out my opposition to the mostly only 3 ways to do something comment which only goes to making some think its true and make jobs harder for those trying to understand the many variables in boating and boating maintenance.

Whatever gave you the idea that the right way to do things can't evolve as technology evolves?

As an example, prior to the early '90s there was only ONE marine toilet (VacuFlush, introduced by Mansfield Plumbing in 1978) that could be connected to a boat's fresh water plumbing without risk of contaminating the potable water supply. Today, every toilet mfr has several models that are designed to to be connected to the fresh water plumbing and the right way to plumb and maintain them is very different from plumbing and maintaining a sea water toilet. New materials for various applications are introduced all the time, engines are redesigned, and along with them come new instructions for the right way to use them in various applications.

As for making jobs harder for those trying to understand the many variables in boating and boating maintenance, there's an old saying: When all else fails, read the instructions." I prefer it said a slightly different way: Read the instructions BEFORE all else fails!

--Peggie

 

[rslifkin]

Toocoys,


I'll certainly side with the folks that told you not to get gassers.. unless you never leave the dock. Get used to it.

Eh, gassers wouldn't be my first choice in his boat or mine, but the 454s are adequate propulsion for either. In my own boat, I only have one real complaint with them: fuel consumption (but we're not a dock queen). I don't love how much flammable liquid we're carrying around, but given proper care, it's not much of an issue.

 

[Peter B]

Well......
Rules and laws are one thing... and they need to be obeyed.


But opinions are like AHs... everyone has one. And I have no problem with someone's opinions but have not issue it that's not my belief. We can agree to disagree, as long as it's safe and within the regs. Outside of that, I'll have an issue.

Fair comment. Down-under we have a saying, "there's more than one way to skin a cat." Why anyone would want to, I don't know, but everybody knows what the saying means all right. Do you right-side-up folk have that saying..?

 

[Art]

There are correct ways, wrong ways and generally workable ways to everything in life. That includes all portions of life. Be it walking, sleeping, driving, jumping, thinking, swimming etc... etc... etc.

In most things there is a tradeoff to nearly every portion thereof. Boats and boating are no different. What works for one may not work for another. Tradeoff being the operative word in boat-world!

 

[toocoys]

What a PERFECT example of what my original post was about. In a previous response I said:

I really wish I hadn't been forum friendly when we bought our boat. We have gas engines so you can imagine how much we were told to bypass it and run. We still get told to run. I was just told how foolish we are for having gas engines over the weekend. I get really tired of it actually.

Notice that my response DID NOT solicit an opinion, but simply stated that I wished I hadn't been forum friendly when I bought my boat because of the negativity I faced then, and now.

And then Seevee felt the need to interject his unsolicited opinion.

Toocoys,
I'll certainly side with the folks that told you not to get gassers.. unless you never leave the dock. Get used to it.

GREAT! You don't like gas engines and you think I should never leave the dock.

So in the spirit of the thread, let's question this response in order to "learn".

Did it make you feel better to tell me what you think of gas engines, even though I didn't ask how you, nor anyone else felt about them? What was it in my original reply that made you think I was requesting an opinion? And what exactly should I "get used to", people being dicks just because they think they can and it makes them feel better?

 

[Alaskaflyer]

Er, because this is a forum?

Forum : (a)a public meeting place for open discussion; (b)a medium (such as a newspaper or online service) of open discussion or expression. Etc.

 

[Haloo]

What a PERFECT example of what my original post was about. In a previous response I said:



Notice that my response DID NOT solicit an opinion, but simply stated that I wished I hadn't been forum friendly when I bought my boat because of the negativity I faced then, and now.

And then Seevee felt the need to interject his unsolicited opinion.





GREAT! You don't like gas engines and you think I should never leave the dock.

So in the spirit of the thread, let's question this response in order to "learn".

Did it make you feel better to tell me what you think of gas engines, even though I didn't ask how you, nor anyone else felt about them? What was it in my original reply that made you think I was requesting an opinion? And what exactly should I "get used to", people being dicks just because they think they can and it makes them feel better?

A lot of folks don’t pick up on the tone of their own posts. In person to person conversation, they may not hear the tone of their own voice. It’s actually a skill to be self aware. Lots of folks put their time and energy elsewhere and neglect this skill. We all have holes in our personalities somewhere.

I bought a new boat. Not much support for that on this forum for good reason. But we made the right choice for us. I have gas outboard engines. Didn’t want to crawl into a hole to service a diesel, and I understand and can work on and service gas engines. Our boat isn’t a trawler, it’s an aluminum offshore fishing boat. We don’t fish. It’s still the right boat for us.

There are a lot of crusty curmudgeons on this forum. Several of them are on this thread. Don’t always like their tone. But I listen to most of them even when I don’t agree. They help define the seascape of boating. I’d rather put up with their salty communication skills than not have them on the forum. Stick around a while. You’ll get used to most of them, and begrudgingly come to appreciate a few.

 

[Northern Spy]

A lot of folks don’t pick up on the tone of their own posts. In person to person conversation, they may not hear the tone of their own voice. It’s actually a skill to be self aware. Lots of folks put their time and energy elsewhere and neglect this skill. We all have holes in our personalities somewhere.



I bought a new boat. Not much support for that on this forum for good reason. But we made the right choice for us. I have gas outboard engines. Didn’t want to crawl into a hole to service a diesel, and I understand and can work on and service gas engines. Our boat isn’t a trawler, it’s an aluminum offshore fishing boat. We don’t fish. It’s still the right boat for us.



There are a lot of crusty curmudgeons on this forum. Several of them are on this thread. Don’t always like their tone. But I listen to most of them even when I don’t agree. They help define the seascape of boating. I’d rather put up with their salty communication skills than not have them on the forum. Stick around a while. You’ll get used to most of them, and begrudgingly come to appreciate a few.

My gut feeling is that a lot of us that annoy others on the forum are the Keirsey Rational temperament, and this is how we communicate with others.

We are here to answer questions and solve problems, and are not very politically correct. Sorry (not really).

This thread also summons the Guardian temperament as well, and likely the people on the dock that annoy him are of this personality type.

I would venture a guess that the OP, toocoys, is neither of these temperaments.

Sometimes just awareness that we all don't think the same, and don't intend to purposefully anger each other can go a long way in communication.

 

[HTurner]

My gut feeling is that a lot of us that annoy others on the forum are the Keirsey Rational temperament, and this is how we communicate with others.

Chortle.

 

[Fish53]

Not sure how one lumps professional mariners together any more than other groups of people.

In the USA, the USCG licenses mariners on not only many levels but on entirely different skill sets and even geographic locations.

And like most professions, once pigeon holed for decades, those skills soar and probably others wane.

Some recreational boaters, many right here if they truly live up to their posts, are very knowledgeable and capable. They may not have tickets or get paid to be on the water...but they may know as much as some beginner, lower level license pros.

When I ran ferries for the state there was a captain who's license was limited to that boat on that particular route. Nice guy but I'm sure he'd have needed clean shorts if he ever got out of sight of land. I was fortunate in that I worked in a number of maritime industries from Alaska to Brazil but it's true that some never go anywhere and consequently never expand their skill set much. The same happens with the graduates of maritime colleges that get out with an unlimited third mates ticket while having very little practical experience. Then there's the guys who come up through the hawespipe who can "hand, reef and steer" with the best of them, real salts that have mastered the art of seamanship, they make poor doctors and you may not want your daughter to marry one but if the poop hits the fan at sea they're good to have around. I was blessed to know many of them. Sorry I got off point there as I got lost in sentimentality.

 

[psneeld]

I worked with a guy who was a retired Navy senior officer who then was a mate on a car carrier for another bunch of years and trips back and forth across the Atlantic.

I am sure his record and training in the Navy and talking to him signaled a wealth of maritime knowledge...this plus his experience with commercial shipping had to only add to all those decades at sea.

He was absolutely the worst small boat handler ever employed by the assistance towing company I worked for. Large vessel skills can but don't always scale down to small boats and vice versa. He also had just about zero small boat maintenance skills, troubleshooting skills, and the ability to keep a boat going on a mission if things went wrong. TOO set in standard skills....not enough creativity.

Great guy, probably someone to go into combat or a hurricane with in ship.but didn't last 6 months in small boats..

The same applies to a great number of TFers who have extensive experience in some areas but not others. There are many aspects of boating that I don't have experience in and try to stay away from those discussions.

It's pretty interesting to sit back and watch how many try and hammer square pegs in round holes during theses threads. The other is when one is arguing general info and the retorts are specific....square peg in round hole.

 

[Northern Spy]

Chortle.

Engineer?

[emoji2]

Dilbert wouldn't have existed or flourished if there wasn't a modicum of truth in the comic.

I used to tell one of my old engineering coworkers that he would get a lot more help more from the business managers if he stopped calling them a bunch of idiots.

He wasn't necessarily incorrect.

 

[toocoys]

I would venture a guess that the OP, toocoys, is neither of these temperaments.

After taking the assessment...

 

[Haloo]

After taking the assessment...

Perfect!

 

[HTurner]

Engineer?

[emoji2]

Dilbert wouldn't have existed or flourished if there wasn't a modicum of truth in the comic.

I used to tell one of my old engineering coworkers that he would get a lot more help more from the business managers if he stopped calling them a bunch of idiots.

He wasn't necessarily incorrect.

Yes, I am an Engineer. I am also the COO of a publicly traded company and have been a business manager for many years.

 

[Fletcher500]

It is interesting how some people come off on here, but that is how the internet rolls. Typing behind an anonymous keyboard pseudonym cause some to make comments that they wouldn't necessarily make face to face. Web forums are best consumed in small doses IMO.

 

[Peter B]

A lot of folks don’t pick up on the tone of their own posts. In person to person conversation, they may not hear the tone of their own voice. It’s actually a skill to be self aware. Lots of folks put their time and energy elsewhere and neglect this skill. We all have holes in our personalities somewhere.

I bought a new boat. Not much support for that on this forum for good reason. But we made the right choice for us. I have gas outboard engines. Didn’t want to crawl into a hole to service a diesel, and I understand and can work on and service gas engines. Our boat isn’t a trawler, it’s an aluminum offshore fishing boat. We don’t fish. It’s still the right boat for us.

There are a lot of crusty curmudgeons on this forum. Several of them are on this thread. Don’t always like their tone. But I listen to most of them even when I don’t agree. They help define the seascape of boating. I’d rather put up with their salty communication skills than not have them on the forum. Stick around a while. You’ll get used to most of them, and begrudgingly come to appreciate a few.

Excellent post, this..! Brave Haloo. So apt, and relevant to us all.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. t. We've got two boats. A twin diesel and a single gasser. I have no qualms about running in either. IMO a properly maintained gasser is no more dangerous than a diesel.


I took the Keirsey test. What a pile of crock! Says I'm Rational...HAH!!!!

 

[FWT]

People who cruise boats are independent and are fine with the concept of being self-sufficient by their nature. Otherwise they would not be comfortable in cruising, let alone find the experience appealing.

That bleeds over into confidence. Which bleeds into strong opinions. Nature of the beast.

Not always right, but never in doubt.

And in the practical REAL world, off-line with no web page debates, running a boat, that's not bad. At all. I watched one video done by a recognized name, and the "host" asked a skipper how he trained fresh guest-crew, especially in docking. The answer was "there is only one right way, and its my way". The host was taken a bit aback and the skipper explained. When one later has to come on deck in weather in the dark and adjust something, there ought not be fumbling around. One Right Way, and you know what it is and what has to be done. He said there may well be better ways, but His Way made for valuable consistency. He had a good point. I wouldn't do it His Way myself, but I would on his boat, and for his reason.

 

[LarryM]

This thread reminds me of a plaque I saw decades ago on the Air Boss's desk aboard the USS Hancock. It stated simply and clearly:

There's a Right Way.
There's a Wrong Way.
There's a Navy Way.
There's My Way.
Be reasonable, do it My Way.

Once we learned that, it turned out to always be the Best Way.

 

[Art]

Artisan - Name says it all...!!

 

[Haloo]

People who cruise boats are independent and are fine with the concept of being self-sufficient by their nature. Otherwise they would not be comfortable in cruising, let alone find the experience appealing.

That bleeds over into confidence. Which bleeds into strong opinions. Nature of the beast.

Not always right, but never in doubt.

And in the practical REAL world, off-line with no web page debates, running a boat, that's not bad. At all. I watched one video done by a recognized name, and the "host" asked a skipper how he trained fresh guest-crew, especially in docking. The answer was "there is only one right way, and its my way". The host was taken a bit aback and the skipper explained. When one later has to come on deck in weather in the dark and adjust something, there ought not be fumbling around. One Right Way, and you know what it is and what has to be done. He said there may well be better ways, but His Way made for valuable consistency. He had a good point. I wouldn't do it His Way myself, but I would on his boat, and for his reason.

Many years ago (40 or so) I read an article on rescues. It stated that the biggest reason a victim will die in an otherwise recoverable situation is that the rescuers disagree on what to do.

About 20 years ago a friend and I managed to save my wife’s life during a sea kayaking trip. I strongly disagreed with the immediate approach my friend began engaging in. But I knew we didn’t have time to disagree. To this day I feel that the option we ended up performing was not even close to the best option, but it worked. We saved her with no time to spare. Had we argued about what to do my wife would have drowned.

I’m not sure how I was able to set aside my own certainty that what we were about to do was a poor option. I’m not sure how I managed to ask my wife (actually yell/scream at her) to first swim further from shore. I simply knew that the only way to save her was to work together — all 3 of us.

The right way ended up being something other than the “right” way. But it ended up being the right way because I did the right thing and didn’t start an argument.

Discussing and learning the “right way” can provide you with a strong set of options…or frameworks…for attacking situations. But there is no substitute for flexible thinking when things get really tough.

 

[FWT]

Meanwhile, Bruce Beard's Facebook page on trawlers maintains a soft tone, and hits 15,000 active members months after starting.

 

[psneeld]

I am not sure where the idea came from about most people die from disagreements during rescue.....

The only constant I found in rescues and salvages...even most assistance tows to a degree...that almost everyone was different and while there might have been standardized pieces and parts...being in charge of the mission required flexibility and knitting together a vast amount of input and whatever you have stored upstairs.

So absolutely there is a lot of disagreement during complex rescues ( most of them)....thats why picking the best person for the job is important and they have to exhibit great leadership.

I am not quite sure how the concept of there is a "right way" and remaining "flexible" are in alignment. To me and my experience has shown breaking from the "right procedure" IS part of being flexible....modifying or combining "right" approaches.

 

[Fish53]

I am not sure where the idea came from about most people die from disagreements during rescue.....

The only constant I found in rescues and salvages...even most assistance tows to a degree...that almost everyone was different and while there might have been standardized pieces and parts...being in charge of the mission required flexibility and knitting together a vast amount of input and whatever you have stored upstairs.

So absolutely there is a lot of disagreement during complex rescues ( most of them)....thats why picking the best person for the job is important and they have to exhibit great leadership.

I am not quite sure how the concept of there is a "right way" and remaining "flexible" are in alignment. To me and my experience has shown breaking from the "right procedure" IS part of being flexible....modifying or combining "right" approaches.

Sometimes being flexible is doing it the right way. Being flexible however implies that someone has the knowledge and experience to correctly assess the situation, there are times trial and error isn't an option.

 

[brianaderer]

I used to work with vintage photo equipment, and traveled around the world helping people with tech setups. One thing I learned from that is that there is really a spectrum of right answers. What works for one person may be horribly wrong for another. The difference between an 'individual operator' and a professional is that the individual operator has tested and retested his setup, knows it inside and out, and devised a range of solutions. This person frequently thinks that his solutions are the best answer, because they work for him. What he lacks is the context of the professional, who knows a range of solutions and setups, advantages and drawbacks of each, and when to apply respective tools given situational challenges and objectives. I too, wound up retreating from these conversations because they normally lack that context. Better to listen and learn, and move your understanding that much closer to professional

 

[psneeld]

I used to work with vintage photo equipment, and traveled around the world helping people with tech setups. One thing I learned from that is that there is really a spectrum of right answers. What works for one person may be horribly wrong for another. The difference between an 'individual operator' and a professional is that the individual operator has tested and retested his setup, knows it inside and out, and devised a range of solutions. This person frequently thinks that his solutions are the best answer, because they work for him. What he lacks is the context of the professional, who knows a range of solutions and setups, advantages and drawbacks of each, and when to apply respective tools given situational challenges and objectives. I too, wound up retreating from these conversations because they normally lack that context. Better to listen and learn, and move your understanding that much closer to professional

 

[toocoys]

Me personally.... I'm still on 'righty tighty, lefty loosey.' Works every time.
And if it doesn't, go the other way.

This made me think of your post... I giggled a little.

 

[Group9]

Fair comment. Down-under we have a saying, "there's more than one way to skin a cat." Why anyone would want to, I don't know, but everybody knows what the saying means all right. Do you right-side-up folk have that saying..?

We say that down south in the US with one addition: “There’s more than one way to skin a cat. The important thing is to make sure the cat gets skinned!”