Do I really need paper charts?

[psneeld]

Well... sorta...

The updated source is current, but the version in everyone's plotter may or (more usually) may not be.

Garmin, for example, appears to update their vector charts once/year (and charges $100/year for that). Furuno and Time Zero -- via MapMedia -- updates NOAA vector and raster charts once/year (no charge, don't know how long raster updates will continue). I'd guess the other makers do updates similarly?

-Chris

I think he was , well at least I was..... referring to NOAA vector charts that are now required for some commercial operations.

That's why I said I would never go back to the typical marine plotter for recreational guys.

I tremendously dislike their proprietary cartography philosophy and I don't believe they can run the NOAA professional level vector stuff.

Though I am not sure personal computing equipment can either. Fortunately I am not in the market for either now....but then again I can get by for the rest of my life on current vector/raster stuff as I don't seem to have the same problems with all this nav discussion of this and that.

 

[mvweebles]

I was indeed referring to the NOAA vector chart updates. On Coastal Explorer on my PC, I have charts loaded for much of the country - both coasts. It had been about a month since I last fired-up CE and there were close to 700 updates and 15 new charts available. I'm sure there's a way to see what each update is, and I'd guess most of the updates are very minor.

For those interested, Coastal Explorer remains an exceptional value in software. I forget what the purchase price is these days, but their upgrade policy is very generous. I was am early Beta user over 20 years ago and purchased the SW shortly thereafter. I think I've paid for one upgrade since then. An alternative is OpenCPN which I find cumbersome to use. I've never used TimeZero so have no opinion.

Peter

 

[Mako]

Charts layered together and quite loosely rolled are not too tough to flatten out... but due to circumference, again a room-taker! Charts tightly rolled are not much of a space occupier... but a bear to reverse roll, flatten out and actually make useable.

I'd say that learning to fold charts like done with large blue-prints is a better way to store charts. The fold itself rarely interferes with drawing lines, and this is superior to rolling in any case.

 

[Art]

I'd say that learning to fold charts like done with large blue-prints is a better way to store charts. The fold itself rarely interferes with drawing lines, and this is superior to rolling in any case.

I'm a CA licensed masonry, concrete and tile building contractor [often on-site at projects]... have been for many decades. I'm also a marine enthusiast and boat user/owner... have been on/around boats for my entire [70 yr. so far] life.

Folding the NY Times or WSJ as a daily read is OK... Folding plans or charts just does not make my boat float - pun intended!

 

[Hippocampus]

For most of us this is relevant only in skinny water. On passage I could give a rodents behind if I’m off miles. I’ve gone to Bermuda multiple times on celestial which on a small boat ain’t very accurate.
So regardless of source no chart is going to tell me about sands that have shifted an hour ago or.buoys that went bye bye or shifted since the last update. Or what happened to that channel as the dredging is in progress or so many things that change in between updates. Even the satellite views are inherently inaccurate. Have no trouble finding an islands just looking for the clouds above it or by even smelling it. This is a skinny water problem and skinny water bottom changes constantly in many places. Many folks have run aground between the red and green when the chart has said they have plenty of water.
Think for the recreational boater much of this thread is a tempest in a teapot. If you maintain situational awareness and actually look at the world outside of you as well as use the instruments on your boat you will decrease your risks of getting in trouble. If you’re just looking at a chart (any chart) and a dot that’s said to be you that’s a recipe for mishap. Chart says or your eyes see rocks or coral heads or is the color you’ve set as your safety depth or you see breaking waves, or a rip or change in water color you’d better proceed with caution. Don’t much care when the update was done. It wasn’t done now.
Don’t care if f it’s 8’ or 80’. Do care if it’s under 5’. Don’t care how much under 5’ beyond if it’s within the tidal range. I don’t trust anything under 20’. My attention level goes up and my speed goes down. Paper, electronic, MFD, pad or laptop. Don’t care. Gets real skinny I’m up on the flybridge with the admiral at the bow. Eyes looking at the sonar and water. Occasional glance at the chart. The chart is no longer the Bible to be religiously followed. My senses and on board instruments take the lead.
Think you guys are discussing angels on the head of the pin. Rather see you spend the time and use a drop line to see if your depth sounder is accurate. Be more productive.

 

[rgano]

For those offshore, out of sight of land tracks you may want to plot hourly positions on, you can print out your own chart from a laptop nav application. Otherwise, no paper charts needed.

 

[OldDan1943]

Look up "Navigator fold" of charts.

I go the extra by writing the chart number etc on the outside of one of the flaps.

While you are waiting ..... find a calm spot, build a lead line with a cup recess in the bottom of the lead so you can also identify the bottom material. You throw the lead line ahead of the bow, walking it aft, coiling it as you walk fwd to throw it again. At the proper moment, shout back to the helmsman "Mark twain" to avoid hitting the bottom.

 

[psneeld]

Charts aren't so much about depths as they also contain a ton of info that many boaters never notice.

Many of my boating friends were completely oblivious to restricted areas, new ATON, changed ATON, hazards, security zones, etc...etc...etc... that chart updates may include or true, one must still look at the Notice to Mariners for the very latest.

Many of the commercial grade vector charts have a lot of info buried where raster and paper charts don't.

 

[Hippocampus]

Not arguing PS. Yes there’s a ton of information beyond depth. For many most of it is of limited utility. I get my notice to navigators automatically on my pad not my charts.

We’ve always kept a plotting chart taped to a bulkhead for all to see on passage. Helps the crew’s spirit. Of course encourages folks to attend to trim as they do get a bit competitive.now more concerned about fuel burn so slow is pro. . Still carry a lead line and a log. Also enjoy having a recording barometer and find it’s useful. All archaic but impervious to lighting strike.

 

[psneeld]

"For most of us this is relevant only in skinny water. On passage I could give a rodents behind if I’m off miles. I’ve gone to Bermuda multiple times on celestial which on a small boat ain’t very accurate."

"Think you guys are discussing angels on the head of the pin. Rather see you spend the time and use a drop line to see if your depth sounder is accurate. Be more productive."

Hmmmm....where have I seen these words?....... most info on a chart is of limited use? Like the things I mentioned that are not NOTAMS but charted info?

 

[Easternshore]

when the electronics fail you’ll “need” them. Just upgraded to new Garmin system touch screen, active captain is more intuitive than Raymarine, synced to iphone & ipad but we enjoy the paper charts. While one can add comments electronically on some electronics its easier to grab a pencil and mark the chart or map tech book of a pleasurable place or event, or add a reminder to avoid a tricky area. We let big tech push us where they want us to go, not what may be best for us.

The annual chart upgrade gets expensive, when’s the last time NOAA or the CG actually updated the soundings on their database? For a BD present my kids gave me a framed paper chart of Sandy Hook Bay/ lower NY harbor circa 1946. Not much has changed, same channels, and other obstructions, new Verrazano narrows bridge but navigation still looks similar. Glad I wasn’t paying $100/year on chart updates.

Yes, we’ll still buy the next maptech book upgrade and companion guide, we enjoy the comments (when approaching manatee point keep to port, watch shoaling to stbrd) and like the big picture a paper chart provides.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Inbreaker on page 1 wrote;
“Paper charts? Terribly old fashioned, like me.”

Inbreaker there are many fashion things and attitudes on TF.
One word will bring up strong statements indeed … anchor.

 

[Pack Mule]

Paper charts? Terribly old fashioned, like me.
The navigational information and ability of chart plotters is another miracle of the age of steam, and something we should fall on our knees and give thanks for. But I like to spread out a paper chart, even- forgive me- an out of date one, for planning purposes, at the end of the day, and perhaps with a beverage.
It is regrettably the case that within the next 12-24 months they will be gone.
In the last two weeks I went to a place here in Desolation Sound where I knew they had a stock of local charts. They are several years out of date. I explained the Australian expression 'money for old rope' to the boss, and asked what he would charge me if I took 6 or 8, rather than him using them to light his fireplace this winter.
He invited me to take what I wanted. I am sitting here now in in Galley Bay admiring a couple of them.
Get 'em while you can.

That’s pretty cool. Even though we don’t go anywhere., I like paper charts. Even frame them sometimes.

 

[Nomad Willy]

My dad had a big round table (6’ about).
He layed out charts of the whole area around Angoon on the big table. Took time to get the layout right so the charts fit together including the most important areas. The the charts were glued down and a piece of sheet plastic (abrasion resistant) got attached (?) on top of all the charts. In social times the table was a popular place to be. Everybody seemed to have a story about this place and that.

 

[SteveK]

I have a nice collection of paper charts in a vac sealed bag. One day I will take a look at them. I also have a marine atlas which before chart plotters I would plan routes. Now I have a chart plotter, a phone and computer app.
There is no right or wrong. Use what you need to get to the destination.

 

[ranger58sb]

I think he was , well at least I was..... referring to NOAA vector charts that are now required for some commercial operations.

I was indeed referring to the NOAA vector chart updates. On Coastal Explorer on my PC, I have charts loaded for much of the country - both coasts. It had been about a month since I last fired-up CE and there were close to 700 updates and 15 new charts available. I'm sure there's a way to see what each update is, and I'd guess most of the updates are very minor.

Fair enough; good points. Although I suspect not many of us have a real ECDIS and charts that are updated that often.

Didn't know Coastal Explorer does that. Sounds nifty, very useful info.

Our copy of TimeZero is way old, doesn't do that; we only get annual NOAA updates. I dunno about the newer version; one of these days I'll get a round tuit...

-Chris

 

[mvweebles]

Didn't know Coastal Explorer does that. Sounds nifty, very useful info

I just checked the update log on my Coastal Explorer and was a bit surprised at the number of changes over a short period of time:

• 1125 August 2 2022: 696 charts updated 38 new charts installed
• 0424 August 5 2022: 4 charts cancelled. 333 ActiveCaptain reviews/comments added; and 372 points of interest updated.
• 0607 August 6 2022: 734 charts updated 54 new charts installed.

To reiterate, I have charts for entire country loaded, so there are a LOT of charts - I have no idea, but ~700 changes may be a relatively small percentage. Also, a single update to a harbor chart (for example) could have cascading changes to several higher-level charts. Or if there was some sort of general change of nomenclature, would have cascading changes to many, many charts.

For US waters, the auto-update is pretty nice. Although I don't worry about granular accuracy of charts too much, hard to argue that being 100% current is anything other than a good thing.

Peter

 

[Portage_Bay]

I favor PC/tablet/phone apps over hardware plotters designed for recreational use for a number of reasons. Chart update cost and management being one. NOAA updates are free online, both vector and while still produced raster. Vector updates are published weekly. Raster as often as needed. What this means to me is that I update my charts the day before any cruise at no cost. I just updated this morning for the first time in about 2 weeks. A total of 51 charts updated for my local area.


Another reason is charts have far more information for the mariner than soundings, ATONs and coast lines. That info is hard to find on a hardware plotter if it can be found at all. Easy to find on NOAA's official charts with the right software.

The only advantage I can see to using dedicated plotters is they are more rugged and weather resistant than computers and portable devices. That is easily solved by having multiple backups. In my case the PC that runs the apps plus we each have a tablet and a phone.

Back to the OP's original question. Are paper charts needed? No they are not and they are going away soon. But I sure like them and they are my final failsafe backup. I'll miss paper and raster charts when they're gone.

 

[Art]

I have and love the memory, workability and general feel of good ol' BIG paper charts.

If I were to purchase a big enough boat and go cruising far enough distance... just for the joy of memories... I'd love to have a chart table therein and play the charting-game I learned decades ago! It's a blast when everything you plotted/calculated on paper ends up "right on the money" when arriving at destination!

Dad always said, as we charted a course on paper: "Don't trust em completely" Always jot down [know] the day's tides' currents, therefrom plot the boat's MOL speed, then follow headings required with alterations exactly at scheduled times, and... watch the depth sounder closely while keeping an eagle eye out in 360 degree circumference.

We always piloted from the flying bridge. As I do to this day!

 

[Steve1.0]

During the summer months in the tropics, lightning is often a daily threat.

A strong strike can carry up to 200,000 amps.

Having been hit once. I now, and for the most part always have, carry paper back-up kit books. Don't use em much, but they are on board.
I too love to study maps and charts just for grins as well.

 

[mvweebles]

The only advantage I can see to using dedicated plotters is they are more rugged and weather resistant than computers and portable devices. That is easily solved by having multiple backups. In my case the PC that runs the apps plus we each have a tablet and a phone.

In my opinion, the strongest reason for a dedicated MFD based system is a cruising boat should have one (1) system of record that everyone who stands a watch will have a working knowledge in its use and operation, including integrated functions such as engaging the A/P. While I have obviously advocated for PC based systems like Coastal Explorer, and I have no concerns about cresting routes and transferring to an MFD, and my instance is integrated with the overall N2K network via a gateway, PCs are simply not designed to operate effectively at the helm of a cruising boat. The display illumination does not adjust properly. Touch screen is finicky and easily accidentally touched. While much more stable, PCs occasionally lockup or crash (especially if running multiple other apps, which is a a prime reason to have the PC aboard - its a multitasking tool). Tablets and smartphone based apps such as Navionics are fine for personal use but in my opinion, do not replace the MFD based system. I really want crew to "own" the boat when they're on watch. A common and integrated ship-based system does that in a way portable multi-task devices cannot.

Peter

 

[psneeld]

Computer or MFD?

Either works fine in many cases, maybe not all.

For the average cruising/looping couple, not sure its the same as a crewed boat with watchstanding and transient crew as in deliveries.

20,000 miles and my OpenCPN laptop was just fine...I would say better in most respects. Definitely easier than many plotters I and others used.

 

[Hippocampus]

We carry paper in the form of chart books. We carry both raster and vector as well but electronically.
When in the BVIs we rarely turned on any electronics at all. Nav is line of sight and after you do the circuit once there’s no need. All chart sources were grossly inaccurate for anchorages (true for much of the Caribbean. Especially true for the southern end of Grenada and it’s small islands).
Island hopping is also line of sight except when you skip an island. Had the electronics on but more for AIS and radar access.
Even up north there’s times the charts regardless of source aren’t reality. For instance there’s a rip between Martha’s Vineyard and Falmouth due to a bar. The ends of that moves around a bit. The rip is great striper fishing at its edges but for a transit through that area you’re better off to not trust the chart and just give it a wide berth. Same running inside by sanibel and captiva. Same in several areas of the lower chessie.
Still contend charts, any source, should be view with caution. Still think too many people view what’s on the screen as reality. They get pissed when they’re aground when the chart says they should be floating. We went in and out from Deltaville. Two very sharp turns. Every time before coming in or going out would ask dock workers and/or fellow boaters where the channel was. Which side of the well marked channel was favored. Frequently would see boats aground INSIDE the channel. Charts said 6-8’ to my recollection. That clearly wasn’t true. Folks get pissed being aground inside a marked channel.
Have gone past Bath, Groton, Norfolk side of chessie entrance multiple times. Do listen, do get notices and do try to pay attention. But the navy has surprised me more than once. Once outside rockland inside matinicus Maine had a sub rise close enough as to truly rock our boat. Put the rail down. First one side then the other.
Just don’t have the trust you folks seem to have in charts. Still view them as an aid. Still view my senses and on board instruments as more reliable.

Nav on passage is way more easier and hugely less stressful. Agree open is more than adequate. Ocean is easy. Even celestial with a noon shot and lower limb of the moon at dusk or dawn will serve. It’s the hard edges that are hard.

 

[psneeld]

Wonder who "you folks" refers to?

 

[Portage_Bay]

In my opinion, the strongest reason for a dedicated MFD based system is a cruising boat should have one (1) system of record that everyone who stands a watch will have a working knowledge in its use and operation, including integrated functions such as engaging the A/P. While I have obviously advocated for PC based systems like Coastal Explorer, and I have no concerns about cresting routes and transferring to an MFD, and my instance is integrated with the overall N2K network via a gateway, PCs are simply not designed to operate effectively at the helm of a cruising boat. The display illumination does not adjust properly. Touch screen is finicky and easily accidentally touched. While much more stable, PCs occasionally lockup or crash (especially if running multiple other apps, which is a a prime reason to have the PC aboard - its a multitasking tool). Tablets and smartphone based apps such as Navionics are fine for personal use but in my opinion, do not replace the MFD based system. I really want crew to "own" the boat when they're on watch. A common and integrated ship-based system does that in a way portable multi-task devices cannot.

Peter

A well reasoned post that I understand while not completely agreeing with. In my professional work I've experienced crew who had problems operating all of the varied systems including paper and required training. It's all about making sure your crew knows how to work with what they are handed.

Generally I won't approve a watch stander's use of the MFD or PC plotter to control the AP especially on auto route following until I have the confidence they fully understand it. Too many close calls.

I agree touch screens are not a great option be they PC, tablet or MFD They just don't work when heavy wx is throwing me around. Also when my fingers are cold, wet or oily which tends to happen with things are getting "interesting". If the system will permit I turn off the touch screen and use a track ball. Held in place with double sided tape if need be.

Display brightness is a problem but solvable to an extent. Too many options to discuss here based on the PC or tablet in use.

One problem I have occasionally run into with PC systems is the watch gets bored and starts poking around until they've "lost" the nav app. I solve that by have a nav acount that only has nav apps loaded. Other accounts are password protected.

As for tablets and phones. They are backup ONLY. Not primary nav.

As paper charts go away I become more and more insistent on backups. Lots of backup. Including multiple GPS sources.

 

[OldDan1943]

I guess the USCG has done away with the need to have paper charts, of your cruise area, on board?

 

[psneeld]

I guess the USCG has done away with the need to have paper charts, of your cruise area, on board?

I'll assume that you know NOAA is in the process of phasing out paper and raster electronic charts......

pretty hard to require something that may no longer be easy to get.... especially when they were never required for recreational vessels.

 

[OldDan1943]

I heard of man who would go to the Bahamas based upon a restaurant place mat.
His friend convinced him to upgrade to a couple of real charts. LOL

 

[psneeld]

I had charts on my trawler leftover from the PO who taught diving in the Bahamas 4 months or so every year off the trawler.

I bet he used those and I know I saw them on restaurant walls and placemats from years ago.

Maybe some placemats are as good as charting gets for some places. The more frequented places have charts that greatly rise in detail and perfection.

I know when we Navigated into Pine Island Bay Antarctic, the only soundings on the chart were a single track of soundings in an out the same icebreaker logged about 10 years earlier.

I am sure the best charts for some of the bends with sandbars in the New Jersey intracoastal were drawn by either me or a few back bay charter guys for years and years. For being the most current on the planet, all they cost a lot of loopers/snowbirders were a couple cold beers and friendly chat.

So much of this thread is arguing completely different topics...as I posted before...get off of a simple question/answer and navigation with or without charts can go in a thousand different ways.

 

[Nomad Willy]

I once had a 28’ plywood boat that I designed and built that had a chart table just ahead of and too port of the stbd helm. Seeing the details on the top of the chart was sometimes a challenge though .. a stretch. Big chart. Had quite a few tho.

I planned on the chart table from the beginning. Many women/girls kept turning the chart up-side-down while running south. Got lost for 15 minutes or so that way. Was in Glacier Bay so I sorta needed to know where we were.