This is disturbing! (new Cutwater boat)

[ssobol]

So what you are saying is that since boat manufacturers are not required by law to deliver a completed product with good quality, they don’t.

What a business!

I'm saying that since boat manufacturers are not in the same league as car or plane manufacturers you should not automatically assume that the level of quality one expects in a car is a given when it comes to boats.

I read a story about a guy who bought a decent size Azimut boat. It took over two years to resolve all the manufacturing defects (but at least his didn't sink). There are probably a lot more Azimut boats out there than Cutwaters or Rangers, so you'd think that their manufacturing processes would be better, but a lot of the issues described on the Azimut were similar to the Cutwater that sank.

 

[TollyLucia]

Wow. Anyone who is happy with that response from Fluid Motion is NUTS. At least Tugnuts is named right. You'd have to be nuts to want to be voluntarily involved with them right now.

I can understand the statements now about "he's an idiot, why didn't he have insurance? if he's that dumb, he probably sunk his own boat".

This is typical "It wouldn't happen to me" behavior. Making people feel like they are smarter than this guy. Connecting the two makes people feel safer. However misplaced that feeling may be.

People are also judging him based on his English. Which is not his first language. And his website building skills? He's the CEO of an aviation company. Not a web designer. He has also been called a "fussy" buyer for paying for a $1000 grill which wasn't installed?

I guess people just throw away thousands and are too afraid to mention it to their sales person. Weird. Maybe that's why most of them don't care nor listen to customers?

 

[SoWhat]

Can't connect to cutwater302.com. A settlement already?

 

[Woodland Hills]

I'm saying that since boat manufacturers are not in the same league as car or plane manufacturers you should not automatically assume that the level of quality one expects in a car is a given when it comes to boats.

I read a story about a guy who bought a decent size Azimut boat. It took over two years to resolve all the manufacturing defects (but at least his didn't sink). There are probably a lot more Azimut boats out there than Cutwaters or Rangers, so you'd think that their manufacturing processes would be better, but a lot of the issues described on the Azimut were similar to the Cutwater that sank.

My point was not to pick on a specific maker, but to decry the poor standards of the entire industry. But, as my granny would say: “Just because they all do it, that don’t make it right!”.

This is just another reason to buy used: not only does depreciation work in your favor, but at least some of the defects will have been corrected.

 

[Solly]

He now has a new post on his blog, two sides to every story........

What did he say ?? The site is gone.

 

[Delfin]

What did he say ?? The site is gone.

It was a very polite response. He said he had immediately contacted the dealer and Cutwater, and that Cutwater was advised the vessel was being moved to Bellingham, where CW could have viewed it if they wished. All of that contradicted what the CW VP stated. I wouldn't know, but I suspect his lawyers asked him to take down his site pending resolution. No good can come of public statements once a lawsuit has been filed, which is something the CW VP was apparently unaware of.

 

[twistedtree]

MJM took an inboard and converted to outboards., Not sure exactly how.

 

[twistedtree]

I'm saying that since boat manufacturers are not in the same league as car or plane manufacturers you should not automatically assume that the level of quality one expects in a car is a given when it comes to boats.

I read a story about a guy who bought a decent size Azimut boat. It took over two years to resolve all the manufacturing defects (but at least his didn't sink). There are probably a lot more Azimut boats out there than Cutwaters or Rangers, so you'd think that their manufacturing processes would be better, but a lot of the issues described on the Azimut were similar to the Cutwater that sank.

It's pervasive in the boat building industry, but still inexcusable in my opinion. Whether you build 10 of something, or 1000 of something, the same quality standards should apply. How you accomplish it will be different, but small volumes is not a free pass on quality.

 

[Solly]

It's pervasive in the boat building industry, but still inexcusable in my opinion. Whether you build 10 of something, or 1000 of something, the same quality standards should apply. How you accomplish it will be different, but small volumes is not a free pass on quality.

I think you can apply this to anything. New company just starting out wants everything to be perfect. Then after awhile it's.. Ho hum, another day, another boat. Get it out the door and income coming in...
Think Space Shuttle.....

 

[Woodland Hills]

I'm saying that since boat manufacturers are not in the same league as car or plane manufacturers you should not automatically assume that the level of quality one expects in a car is a given when it comes to boats.

I read a story about a guy who bought a decent size Azimut boat. It took over two years to resolve all the manufacturing defects (but at least his didn't sink). There are probably a lot more Azimut boats out there than Cutwaters or Rangers, so you'd think that their manufacturing processes would be better, but a lot of the issues described on the Azimut were similar to the Cutwater that sank.

I see from your signature photo that you have or had a C-Dory. Do you recall the controversy at the C-Brats when C-Dory was sold to Fluid Motion? I was often over there and IIRC, the same PR flack was involved in that too. It was several years ago and I can’t recall any detail, but I think there was something about the way they handled the transition that was unsavory in one way or another. I do know that at first the C-Dory fanatics were all excited about the possibilities of having a well capitalized owner make some positive changes, but were very surprised when Fluid shutdown the whole brand!

 

[SoWhat]

I wouldn't know, but I suspect his lawyers asked him to take down his site pending resolution.

I can only guess, but Cutwater/Ranger was taking a public beating on numerous websites including thehulltruth, sportfishingbc, c-brats, bdoutdoors, etc. Cutwater's quality and design were being hammered and going viral. I suspect they decided the hit to their reputation was costing them a lot in lost sales. A quick settlement and it all goes away. Except it won't because the rabbit already left the gate.

 

[Woodland Hills]

Finding out the owner was Swedish explains a lot about his expectations: I cannot imagine any Norwegian or Swedish boatbuilder delivering a product in such an incomplete state. That would be completely inconceivable and it is no surprise that he got a little testy once he was confronted with the apparent reality of the “standards” of the American boatbuilding industry.

 

[Benthic2]

As to why a VP of Sales and Marketing is responding, this is a 2 part problem for Cutwater. Part 1 is how to deal with the one individual whose boat sank. Part 2 is how to keep this incident from damaging the brand image, sales, and bottom line for Cutwater. That is absolutely in the wheelhouse for the VP of Sales and Marketing.

 

[BruceK]

I still don`t get criticism of the owner for not having insurance. His call. And why there is surprise that self insured, he got lawyers to take up recovery. Isn`t that what a subrogated insurer would do?
While I see the "belt and braces" pragmatism in having a new boat surveyed, surely a 400K buyer is entitled to expect a new boat from a builder who tests,delivered through an experienced dealer,to be free of defects. I can`t tell whether it had defects or not, but it did sink,for me that raises a(rebuttable by other material) "res ipsa loquitur"(the thing speaks for itself).
I wondered why the blog has gone too. Maybe smoothing things over while discussion proceeds, maybe threat of defamation proceedings, maybe the blog achieved purpose by getting the issue out, hard to say.

 

[psneeld]

Boats rarely sink by themselves...once they have been afloat awhile.

Usually only if you step aboard and are now in command of an already sinking one.

Usually human intervention or lack of it when needed help poo s out in most sinker cases I have come across.

 

[twistedtree]

I still don`t get criticism of the owner for not having insurance. His call. And why there is surprise that self insured, he got lawyers to take up recovery. Isn`t that what a subrogated insurer would do?
While I see the "belt and braces" pragmatism in having a new boat surveyed, surely a 400K buyer is entitled to expect a new boat from a builder who tests,delivered through an experienced dealer,to be free of defects. I can`t tell whether it had defects or not, but it did sink,for me that raises a(rebuttable by other material) "res ipsa loquitur"(the thing speaks for itself).
I wondered why the blog has gone too. Maybe smoothing things over while discussion proceeds, maybe threat of defamation proceedings, maybe the blog achieved purpose by getting the issue out, hard to say.

I agree.


I'd love to see that 16 page check list that the Cutwater guy mentioned using when the boat is test launched.


I wonder if it includes running any of the water fixtures. You know, all the ones that were disconnected or leaked when first tried? I wonder if the engine rigging bolts are tested for tightness and witness marked? I wonder if the windows are hosed to check for leaks? I wonder of the drains are flushed and checked for debris? I wonder if the bilge pumps are tested? I wonder if the sponson bilge pump is tested, especially considering that it's 100% automatic. The only way to test would be to flood the sponson. I'd love to see the filled out check list for that particular boat, unless of course it's gone missing.

 

[GFC]

From the Tugnuts thread?
"Yes, Matty facts and speculation sometimes can change the story. Its unfortunate. Its hard to keep a Non-Bias opinion. When I read the Blog a few weeks ago I was surprised to see a new Cutwater floating upside down (Capsized). I read through the Blog and felt that some of the issues were typical issues when purchasing a boat through a dealer. He thought that he was the only customer. That was a common experience when I worked in the marine industry. Spring deliveries, Salemen promise the world, all the deliveries seem to happen at once. A whole winter of boat sales, everyone wants their boat now.The Marine Industry goes through highs and lows and it is in one of the highs now! Manufactures and dealers try to capitalize on this to stay in business. The down sides to this is the customer doesn't get the service from the dealer that he expects while the dealer is doing his best to try to take care of all of their customers. The other issue the dealer has is the manufacture is trying to keep up with all the orders and trying to build as many boats as possible and Quality Control issues start to happen. Warranty issues increase and customers are not happy about issues with their new boat. Dealers are trying to deliver new boats and spend time fixing problems the manufacturer missed.A few things get over looked and now you have a unhappy buyer. This is typical in the industry."


This was one of the things in that thread that really ticked me off. The author of this paragraph works in the boating industry and identifies an industry problem that has been ongoing for years. Then, he simply dismisses this HUGE problem with his last comment "This is typical in the industry."


If the industry people know this is a problem what the hell are they doing to fix it, or are they just ignoring it and shrugging their shoulders and saying "Oh well"?


As to all of you who reject this boat owner's desire to self insure, you will never understand the concept of being wealthy enough to self insure on a purchase of this size. People in this stratospheric level of wealth save themselves a lot of money by self insuring when they make a purchase of this size. It's peanuts to them.


When you buy a car or boat or anything new, do you buy the "extended warranty" with it? If you don't, you are self insuring against future mechanical breakdowns. For me, I never buy them and I've saved tons of money over the years. Much more has been saved than I have ever spent on repairs.

 

[JLD]

I'm saying that since boat manufacturers are not in the same league as car or plane manufacturers you should not automatically assume that the level of quality one expects in a car is a given when it comes to boats.

I think the boat building model is similar to the rv building model. Hang around any rv forum for a while and one will see that most experienced buyers have a punch-list to go through when they pick up their rv and expect to have to return it to the dealer for warranty work shortly after purchase. This doesn't make the boat purchasing process any better, but it is not alone in quality issues.

There also seems to be some confusion over the boats value, I believe it is $400,000 Canadian, or $300,000 U.S.

I hope we hear back from the Cutwater owner who posted earlier on this thread. After hanging out on the TugNuts site when the new R23 was being announced, I got the impression that the factory did very little customization of their boats which seems contrary to what the gentleman with the sunken boat published. Granted the customization wouldn't likely have contributed to the sinking, but I wonder what work was actually done by the dealer?

Jim

 

[SoWhat]

I think the boat building model is similar to the rv building model. ....when they pick up their rv and expect to have to return it to the dealer for warranty work shortly after purchase.

Owner of the sunken Cutwater also owns a Robinson R44. Pricce ~$400,000.
I am guessing when he pulled the collective the first time he expected the helicopter to fly and stay in the air.
Just as he expected the boat to stay on top of the water.

Cutwater's business model is going to sink them along with their boats if they keep it up.

 

[ssobol]

I think you can apply this to anything. New company just starting out wants everything to be perfect. Then after awhile it's.. Ho hum, another day, another boat. Get it out the door and income coming in...
Think Space Shuttle.....

The relatively small companies and small volumes do not give the manufacturers a lot of cushion when it comes to the resources to rework defects or purchaser customizations. This can lead to short cuts and oversights due to the need to get the boat out the door so the manufacturer can get the check.

Although the boat didn't sink, one of the sales of the new Great Harbor TT35 also descended into a lawyers' fight over quality and design issues.

 

[ssobol]

I see from your signature photo that you have or had a C-Dory. Do you recall the controversy at the C-Brats when C-Dory was sold to Fluid Motion? I was often over there and IIRC, the same PR flack was involved in that too. It was several years ago and I can’t recall any detail, but I think there was something about the way they handled the transition that was unsavory in one way or another. I do know that at first the C-Dory fanatics were all excited about the possibilities of having a well capitalized owner make some positive changes, but were very surprised when Fluid shutdown the whole brand!

I bought my boat second hand and have no direct experience with any of the brand owners. I can say that I have had zero problems with my boat as a result of design or manufacturing defects. But my C-Dory is much simpler than a large Cutwater and there is much, much less that can go wrong. I think the KISS design and associated durability is the reason that C-Dorys retain their value and have a strong following.

 

[BandB]

As to the domain and web site cutwater302.com, I doubt seriously that it's a sign of any talk of agreement, but rather a threat based on a registered trademark or otherwise over the domain name. The domain is currently owned by Perfect Privacy LLC, hosted by Wix.com and no longer resolving to a site. I suspect an attorney's letter led to the disappearance.

 

[boatpoker]

An average survey for me is about 30 recommendations. Three or four times a year I am commissioned to survey a new vessel pre - delivery. These new vessels average about 20 recommendations, some quite significant .... 11 throughulls but access to only 7, an oil filter you could see but no way to reach it, neverbonds, improper or nonexistent grounds, improper gasoline compartment ventilation and one where they actually forgot to put glass fiber in a large section of the hull ..... not at all impressed by the industry.

 

[South of Heaven]

Okay guys, you better read this thread from Tug Nuts quickly before it gets removed. Jeff Mesmer from Ranger Tugs actually chimes in.....

The TugNuts • View topic - Total nightmare!!

 

[Genecop]

An average survey for me is about 30 recommendations. Three or four times a year I am commissioned to survey a new vessel pre - delivery. These new vessels average about 20 recommendations, some quite significant .... 11 throughulls but access to only 7, an oil filter you could see but no way to reach it, neverbonds, improper or nonexistent grounds, improper gasoline compartment ventilation and one where they actually forgot to put glass fiber in a large section of the hull ..... not at all impressed by the industry.

I always assumed it was the RV industry that had very little QC, as a new person getting into boating this is disturbing. I had thought that the QC with boating would be so much higher due to safety ...I should have known, $ always trumps safety...

 

[LN-RTP]

. While I see the "belt and braces" pragmatism in having a new boat surveyed, surely a 400K buyer is entitled to expect a new boat from a builder who tests,delivered through an experienced dealer,to be free of defects

He can be Entitled all he wants, reality is that many builders lack attention to detail, to quality control and lack proper pre-delivery inspections regardless what they say in brochures and on websites: Have seen it personally, it is all BS. Let’s make a sloppy product, if the buyer notices, let the dealer sort it out, if he doesn’t, great. The almighty $$ is more important than safety and integrety.


New build surveys highly recommended.

 

[Woodland Hills]

So is this whole affair indicative of how American manufacturers behave when not highly regulated? First we heard about the boat business, now we learn the entire RV business has the same low standards. Other posters have indicated that in industries with high levels of government regulation like aviation or autos these issues are nonexistent. Is this something inherent in capitalism everywhere or is it confined to the US sector? Maybe buyers would be better served by spending their money in countries with more ethical business practices.

 

[LN-RTP]

. Maybe buyers would be better served by spending their money in countries with more ethical business policies.

Why should quality be regulated?
It should be a given in any high end or expensive product..

 

[Woodland Hills]

Why should quality be regulated?
It should be a given in any high end or expensive product..

Because if it is not mandatory, it often does not happen voluntarily. As we have read in this thread.....

 

[danderer]

Let’s make a sloppy product, if the buyer notices, let the dealer sort it out, if he doesn’t, great.

This reminds me of how the US auto industry operated in the 60s and 70s.

A part of the was the manufacturer mindset--their "customer" wasn't the purchaser but rather the dealer. The manufacturer had no real desire to talk to, or interest in the opinions of, the final purchaser of the vehicle. Once they got the dealer to accept the vehicle their part of the transaction was considered complete.