This is disturbing! (new Cutwater boat)

[FF]

While a vacuum breaker mounted high up does have a safety advantage , remember it costs power to push the water up that high.

And with a vacuum breaker after the unit, the weight of the discharge water can not help pull (Syphon) the water up.

So more pumping power required may discharge the bat set faster.

 

[sunchaser]

Carl

I was thinking similar thoughts to the Firestone recall on the Exploders. A few years ago GM had the key FOB fiasco that resulted in massive recalls and a new CEO.

It is fortunate that more dire consequences weren't involved. The waters traversed from Nanaimo to Skagway are with many perils and large seas. That similar sort of an arrangement works for a get home on their inboards though - with a 20 HP motor attached.

As mentioned earlier, one look at a Grady White 30' OB shows a well designed setup.

 

[JLD]

I think its premature for us to speculate on what Fluid Motion might, or might not do.


For me, there is not enough information to assign 100% blame. Experience has taught me that often when there are two parties in a dispute, that often the truth lies somewhere in the middle.


I think that in any event, a Cutwater 302 owner, or potential owner, should be watching this incident carefully to gauge whether the potential problem affects them.



I also think it is good reinforcement for the rest of us, to make sure that we have adequate pumps (and power for the pumps) on board our boats


Jim

 

[AdmiralS]

I think its premature for us to speculate on what Fluid Motion might, or might not do.


For me, there is not enough information to assign 100% blame. Experience has taught me that often when there are two parties in a dispute, that often the truth lies somewhere in the middle.


I think that in any event, a Cutwater 302 owner, or potential owner, should be watching this incident carefully to gauge whether the potential problem affects them.



I also think it is good reinforcement for the rest of us, to make sure that we have adequate pumps (and power for the pumps) on board our boats


Jim

 

[Delfin]

I think its premature for us to speculate on what Fluid Motion might, or might not do.


For me, there is not enough information to assign 100% blame. Experience has taught me that often when there are two parties in a dispute, that often the truth lies somewhere in the middle.


I think that in any event, a Cutwater 302 owner, or potential owner, should be watching this incident carefully to gauge whether the potential problem affects them.



I also think it is good reinforcement for the rest of us, to make sure that we have adequate pumps (and power for the pumps) on board our boats


Jim

Well, we know who built the boat, we know it sank at the dock, and we know that two surveyors think it sank because of a very poor design and/or defective equipment. So I guess we know some things from which to draw an informed conclusion.

 

[aginglawyer]

Indeed disturbing

This is profoundly disturbing, particularly in light of the possibility that the boat might have been occupied by the owner's children on the night of the capsize.
I am greatly concerned about the probably poor and unsafe design here. Ranger Tugs and Cutwater have a great reputation for solid, well-equipped boats and this is a total failure as borne out by the survey reports. How many similar boats are out there and will Cutwater do a recall for repair?


Please keep us posted on this.

 

[sunchaser]

There is a current thread on how a Mainship 390 owner rebuilt his failing swim platform. Very big job and with similarities to this thread.

 

[Oldgeezer]

I have not read all the comments, but in Canada it is required by the Canada shipping act that all boat operators have the pleasure craft operator card and that is given out after passing a basic boat smart exam. Insurance companies require this card. This may or may not be relevant.

 

[JLD]

Well, we know who built the boat, we know it sank at the dock, and we know that two surveyors think it sank because of a very poor design and/or defective equipment. So I guess we know some things from which to draw an informed conclusion.

Respectfully, I would personally disagree. While we do know who built the boat, I see no definitive answer as to why the boat sank at the dock. It seems to me that poor design may have been a factor in the sinking. However, what where the other factors, if any, that may have contributed to the sinking?



Jim

 

[dhays]

I am greatly concerned about the probably poor and unsafe design here. Ranger Tugs and Cutwater have a great reputation for solid, well-equipped boats and this is a total failure as borne out by the survey reports. How many similar boats are out there and will Cutwater do a recall for repair?

The reputation for Ranger Tugs and Cutwater has more to do with popularity than anything else. They certainly serve a niche and give a lot of owners a lot of enjoyment. Since we have’t heard about a lot of the boats sinking, I would imagine that this in an unusual situation. I would only be concerned if I had a boat which had been similarly redesigned for outboard.

 

[Delfin]

Respectfully, I would personally disagree. While we do know who built the boat, I see no definitive answer as to why the boat sank at the dock. It seems to me that poor design may have been a factor in the sinking. However, what where the other factors, if any, that may have contributed to the sinking?



Jim

Given that two surveyors inspected the vessel and both concluded the same thing, yes, I think we know what sank it.

 

[Nikko]

I have not read all the comments, but in Canada it is required by the Canada shipping act that all boat operators have the pleasure craft operator card and that is given out after passing a basic boat smart exam. Insurance companies require this card. This may or may not be relevant.

Not sure insurance companies require proof of a PCOC (required for all powered craft) - I've certainly never been asked for one..

 

[BYNW]

I am very confused about how he bought a boat at the Seattle Boat show from a Canadian dealer. Only the Seattle dealer is allowed to display at the Seattle boat show. I think there is a lot more to the story then we are hearing.

Canadian's exhibited at both the NYBA and NMTA shows in Seattle.

 

[Nikko]

I am very confused about how he bought a boat at the Seattle Boat show from a Canadian dealer. Only the Seattle dealer is allowed to display at the Seattle boat show. I think there is a lot more to the story then we are hearing.

It's a pretty standard process:

• Manufacturer (Cutwater) hosts the booth/dock space at the Seattle show
• Various dealerships provide additional personnel to man the booth/dock space (inc Canadian dealers)
• Sales leads come in, they're then moved off to the dealer closest to/best able to handle the customer
• Dealer then makes and completes the sale etc...

 

[tiltrider1]

It's a pretty standard process:

• Manufacturer (Cutwater) hosts the booth/dock space at the Seattle show
• Various dealerships provide additional personnel to man the booth/dock space (inc Canadian dealers)
• Sales leads come in, they're then moved off to the dealer closest to/best able to handle the customer
• Dealer then makes and completes the sale etc...

Yes, I followed up on this with the NMTA. This is a Case were the manufacture has the floor space. The sale is not really completed at the boat show, a deposit is taken and the sale is then performed back in Canada between the dealer and purchaser.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

And just exactly what does that have to do with the boat sinking due to a design flaw? Absolutely nothing, why conflate two separate issues. Wrong is wrong is and if it is a design issue (which it appears to be) then it doesn't matter who incurs the loss be it the owner or his insurer.

Agreed, the two are unrelated. If the vessel was insured, and the insurer paid the claim, it's likely the insurer would then subrogate the builder's insurer...

 

[bligh]

Wow, what a interesting read. Everyone's comments have been really good and mostly consistent with each other.



Here are a few of my own that may or may not have already been mentioned.


One of the surveyors pointed out that some of the the through hulls are not accessible for inspection. This does not seem like the build quality you would expect in a $400k 30 ft boat.



I own a business. A while back , one of my employees did some faulty work on a customers home. The job was not a very high dollar job. But the faulty work ended up flooding the house and destroying the customers hardwood floors. I went to the customers house as soon as I could and personally verified that it was indeed my employees fault (which it was). I immediately took responsibility for it and proceeded to arrange and pay for all the necessary repairs in order to make things right. (the repairs cost approx 70x the amount of the initial sale we made to the customer.) The customer really appreciated how went above and beyond to make things right.. I'm sure I would have paid at least 2x more had I turned it into my insurance company and let them handle the issue. I certainly would have lost more business if I had that customer wandering around town (or the internet) saying how my compay F***ed him over and destroyed his house then forced him into a legal battle to recoup his loss. It just seems to me that Cutwater and the dealer dropped the ball with this customer from at least the delivery time forward. The perception of the brands Cutwater and Ranger are really on the ropes here (IE sell less boats in the future). I would not be surprised if this incident has long term consequences. Surely if Cutwater handled this different from the start (or even upon being notified of the sinking), they could have not only protected their brand, but made it stronger thorough out the boating community (IE sell more boats in the future). It seems to me the dealer and/or the builder builder missed out on several opportunities to keep the customer happy and protect their brand. The first missed opportunity was the lack of a thorough factory sea trial.





The third point i bring up is in response to those that think the 'buyer' was inexperienced or ignorant (which we dont really know): Ranger/Cutwater markets to this crowd. I would guess that the majority of tugnuts and cutwater owners have not likely owned a 30 foot or similarly sized power boat in the past. Assuming this is true (you may disagree), shouldn't cutwater/ranger be designing their boats so this sort of incident wont occur? I cant think of any happenstance other than a tidal wave or hurricane where my boat would 'sink' at the dock if it were brand new and up to standards of a similarly sized/price boats.




My last point is in regards to the comment here that his friends cutwater was already on its way back to the builder to have modifications made. If this is true, and the modification is paid for my the builder, I think any court will find it easy to prove the builder is at fault.



Best

Scott

 

[bligh]

Yes, I followed up on this with the NMTA. This is a Case were the manufacture has the floor space. The sale is not really completed at the boat show, a deposit is taken and the sale is then performed back in Canada between the dealer and purchaser.

Speaking of this, if I were the boat owner, I might find a space to display my cutwater turtle at the next Seattle boat show. I think the builder would settle up pretty quickly if they saw that in their future.

 

[Joe Pica]

Reputation vrs reality?
The Original Ranger Tug Dealer in the Chesapeake Bay quit Ranger and took on Nordic Tugs because of the defective unfinished boats that were being shipped by the factory which then expected the Dealer to fix defects and complete the boats at 50 cents on the dollar. This was several years ago (5 years perhaps) ago) when a friend had to finally have his brand new Range fixed at his expense. He traded it in for a larger model and had a repeat of the same experience. In Norfolk at an AGLCA Rendezvous Nordic was reintroducing the smallest Nordic Tug 26. I help the Nordic delivery rep. with rigging the electronics and he said he was formally in production with Ranger and got fed up with the lack of quality control and customer service so jumped to Nordic Tug. Note I have no verification of what he said other than his word. That said, I was witness to my friends frustrations with trying to get the Ranger Tugs factory defects (stern thruster never worked) etc. corrected. This is of course only a single anecdote . All new boats have issues, best buy a newer full time cruising live aboard as they are often well tended to, with all fixes done and maintained. As always the surveys are essential.

 

[Delfin]

Wow, what a interesting read. Everyone's comments have been really good and mostly consistent with each other.



Here are a few of my own that may or may not have already been mentioned.


One of the surveyors pointed out that some of the the through hulls are not accessible for inspection. This does not seem like the build quality you would expect in a $400k 30 ft boat.



I own a business. A while back , one of my employees did some faulty work on a customers home. The job was not a very high dollar job. But the faulty work ended up flooding the house and destroying the customers hardwood floors. I went to the customers house as soon as I could and personally verified that it was indeed my employees fault (which it was). I immediately took responsibility for it and proceeded to arrange and pay for all the necessary repairs in order to make things right. (the repairs cost approx 70x the amount of the initial sale we made to the customer.) The customer really appreciated how went above and beyond to make things right.. I'm sure I would have paid at least 2x more had I turned it into my insurance company and let them handle the issue. I certainly would have lost more business if I had that customer wandering around town (or the internet) saying how my compay F***ed him over and destroyed his house then forced him into a legal battle to recoup his loss. It just seems to me that Cutwater and the dealer dropped the ball with this customer from at least the delivery time forward. The perception of the brands Cutwater and Ranger are really on the ropes here (IE sell less boats in the future). I would not be surprised if this incident has long term consequences. Surely if Cutwater handled this different from the start (or even upon being notified of the sinking), they could have not only protected their brand, but made it stronger thorough out the boating community (IE sell more boats in the future). It seems to me the dealer and/or the builder builder missed out on several opportunities to keep the customer happy and protect their brand. The first missed opportunity was the lack of a thorough factory sea trial.





The third point i bring up is in response to those that think the 'buyer' was inexperienced or ignorant (which we dont really know): Ranger/Cutwater markets to this crowd. I would guess that the majority of tugnuts and cutwater owners have not likely owned a 30 foot or similarly sized power boat in the past. Assuming this is true (you may disagree), shouldn't cutwater/ranger be designing their boats so this sort of incident wont occur? I cant think of any happenstance other than a tidal wave or hurricane where my boat would 'sink' at the dock if it were brand new and up to standards of a similarly sized/price boats.




My last point is in regards to the comment here that his friends cutwater was already on its way back to the builder to have modifications made. If this is true, and the modification is paid for my the builder, I think any court will find it easy to prove the builder is at fault.



Best

Scott

Yep, what he said.

I would add that this is a recent event and Cutwater hasn't really had time to respond yet. If they're smart, they'll make this customer whole with a nice new boat with an appropriate scheme for flotation to support those honking big outboards hanging 3' off the stern, and apply that same fix to every boat they've sold. And as you said, the minute they start fixing anyone's boat, they have acknowledged a problem that needs to be addressed and any defense they made no errors in the initial design go out the window.

 

[bligh]

Yep, what he said.

I would add that this is a recent event and Cutwater hasn't really had time to respond yet. If they're smart, they'll make this customer whole with a nice new boat with an appropriate scheme for flotation to support those honking big outboards hanging 3' off the stern, and apply that same fix to every boat they've sold. And as you said, the minute they start fixing anyone's boat, they have acknowledged a problem that needs to be addressed and any defense they made no errors in the initial design go out the window.

One of my main points is they have had many opportunities to respond. The boat sank on Sept 9 and the dealer was notified immediately. Both the dealer and the builder hid under their desks! (or went fishing according to the owner) I don't see how the builder could turn this around now.. According to the owner , assuming he is telling the truth, the builder and dealer have been non-responsive since the sinking.

 

[BruceK]

TT
What does the owner want is an interesting question. If he is truly self insured under Canadian law there are several potential outcomes. If he wants revenge there are other avenues. If he wants to be made whole there are steps that could have been taken absent the Internet. A lawsuit in US court is not without entanglements as previously noted.

So blog site postings aside, where this tragedy goes for resolution seems in the Owner's corner. And likely not known for our curiosities.

Every so often,someone with deep pockets and or fire in the soul for recompense of one kind or another suffers a wrong at someone else`s hands. In that event, the might and force of a large corporation or insurer is blunted,I wish him well.

 

[Ski in NC]

Given that two surveyors inspected the vessel and both concluded the same thing, yes, I think we know what sank it.

Their reports are hardly conclusive. Both apparently hired by the owner, so there is that tilt. And no test of the bilge pumps and no analysis of the circuitry was reportedly done. And neither splashed the boat to test the flooding characteristics, or did any other test that would quantify the apparent design fault. Just a walk-around analysis, certainly not an in depth investigation.

True the rigging tubes would likely leak into the hull in a stern low situation, but what is the leak rate? Beyond the pump capability? None of us know. And neither do the surveyors.

My gut feel is that if the bilge pumps were operable, and deck hatches in place, this event would not have occurred. Of course I have little to base that on, it is simply a gut feel.

 

[Benthic2]

.....- think the Firestone recall of 14.5 million tires because the treads would fly off if you went fast and cause sometimes fatal accidents. ....

If you recall, early on Ford said it was Firestone's fault....and Firestone said it was Ford's fault. Then...after Firestone swore up and down that recalling 6 million tires was unquestionable sufficient, they recalled another 7 or 8 million. No one here stepped up and did the right and honorable thing until they were absolutely forced to.

You also have to remember that you had the deaths of 140 people and the US Govt NHTSA pushing the issue.

The Ford/Firestone issue was NOT an example of a corporation accepting responsibility, nor victory for the little guy vs Goliath.

This case is one solitary individual against a large company ( granted, not as large as Ford or Firestone ). His odds are slim at best. I would be willing to bet he gets screwed!!


I agree that the cheapest and best solution for Cutwater is take the next 302 produced, put it on a trailer, and deliver it to this guy.

I am sure that in 5 years, Cutwater executives will agree that would have been the best course of action.

I seriously, seriously doubt that is what will happen.

 

[Benthic2]

Also, can someone with some electrical knowledge give a very round number, back of the napkin type of calculation as to how long a bilge pump can run on a typical house battery ?

 

[firstbase]

A Rule 500 draws 1.2 amps which would run for about 70 hours or so on a 100 AH deep cycle. Something like that I believe. I'm sure someone will give a more exact example.

 

[Delfin]

If you recall, early on Ford said it was Firestone's fault....and Firestone said it was Ford's fault. Then...after Firestone swore up and down that recalling 6 million tires was unquestionable sufficient, they recalled another 7 or 8 million. No one here stepped up and did the right and honorable thing until they were absolutely forced to.

You also have to remember that you had the deaths of 140 people and the US Govt NHTSA pushing the issue.

The Ford/Firestone issue was NOT an example of a corporation accepting responsibility, nor victory for the little guy vs Goliath.

This case is one solitary individual against a large company ( granted, not as large as Ford or Firestone ). His odds are slim at best. I would be willing to bet he gets screwed!!


I agree that the cheapest and best solution for Cutwater is take the next 302 produced, put it on a trailer, and deliver it to this guy.

I am sure that in 5 years, Cutwater executives will agree that would have been the best course of action.

I seriously, seriously doubt that is what will happen.

I didn't suggest that Firestone was an example of anything other than a clear case of a manufacturer's defect. It wasn't a close call, nor is this one. The owner could be a complete moron; the surveyors his brothers. What is indisputable is that the boat sank. With no insurance, I'm going out on a limb and assume he didn't scuttle his own boat, which leaves us with the one thing we know - a new boat with other quality issues sank at the dock.

 

[Delfin]

Agreed, the two are unrelated. If the vessel was insured, and the insurer paid the claim, it's likely the insurer would then subrogate the builder's insurer...

Steve, you are certainly an expert, and certainly a disinterested party. Given the "self drain" outlet on the starboard side of the sponson they bolted onto the transom to provide offsetting flotation for the weight of the outboards, and it's position on the underside of the swim platform, does it surprise you that water flowered into that outlet as waves lapped under the swim platform? You need not answer if you don't want to get in the middle of this conversation.....

 

[porman]

Ranger/Cutwater tests some, maybe all, of their boats in Lake Washington. They launch them right next door to my marina. I've sat on my bow and watched them. They appear to perform an extensive sea trial, testing all the systems. A lot is done right at the launch ramp, and then they take off out on the lake. The whole process takes a couple of hours. I have several friends that have had Rangers and one who had a Cutwater (not the one I noted in post 16). They were all very happy with them, but this was quite a few years ago, so the quality control may have changed. I personally don't care for them. I think they try to pack too many gimmicks in too small a space.

 

[SoWhat]

Their reports are hardly conclusive. Both apparently hired by the owner, so there is that tilt. And no test of the bilge pumps and no analysis of the circuitry was reportedly done. And neither splashed the boat to test the flooding characteristics, or did any other test that would quantify the apparent design fault. Just a walk-around analysis, certainly not an in depth investigation.

True the rigging tubes would likely leak into the hull in a stern low situation, but what is the leak rate? Beyond the pump capability? None of us know. And neither do the surveyors.

3rd year law student would eat these surveyors for lunch. Their reports were a bunch of opinions with no foundation. They could have easily determined the voltage of the battery, recorded the pump head, measured the pump flow through the corrugated hose, and derived a reasonable number stating probable pump capacity. Instead they offer a statement "...the pumping system would be inadequate" ignoring the fact that the pumping system was designed to clear out rain water. I would be surprised if the one connected pump was capable of pushing out 500gph.

Very biased reports and both surveyors wrote very similar reports. Neither offered any quantitative analysis. Can't see where Cutwater would blink first.