Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 11-29-2018, 12:15 AM   #141
Guru
 
Comodave's Avatar
 
City: Au Gres, MI
Country: US
Vessel Name: Never Say Never
Vessel Model: President 41 DC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 8,972
If I owned an outboard Cutwater 30í boat, I would be stocking up on caulking and checking all possible water entry points in the sponson.
__________________
Advertisement

Comodave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2018, 07:58 AM   #142
Guru
 
Woodland Hills's Avatar
 
City: Jacksonville
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Alzero
Vessel Model: Hatteras 63' CPMY
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,494
Quote:
Originally Posted by South of Heaven View Post
Could this get the vote for 2018/19 TF winter thread of the year?? This may get us through the winter....Better than Netflix. There's still SO much to be revealed (but let's not hold our breath on Fluid Motion, LLC releasing any statements!). I also find it very interesting that the "Tug Nutters" are staying quite mum on the whole situation. I don't blame them though.....they love the company and are loyalists.
The tugnuts site is owned by Fluid Motion: no critical threads are permitted. I believe they also own the C-Brats forum too. Independent forums like this one are the only place to discuss this.
__________________

Woodland Hills is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2018, 08:00 AM   #143
Guru
 
Woodland Hills's Avatar
 
City: Jacksonville
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Alzero
Vessel Model: Hatteras 63' CPMY
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,494
Am I the only one whose forum feed is filled with ads for Cutwater boats?
Woodland Hills is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2018, 08:16 AM   #144
JLD
Guru
 
City: Maryland
Country: USA
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 549
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodland Hills View Post
The tugnuts site is owned by Fluid Motion: no critical threads are permitted. I believe they also own the C-Brats forum too. Independent forums like this one are the only place to discuss this.

In addition, the vast majority of folks on the tugnuts site are Ranger Tug owners. You sometimes see threads on boat problems, but I agree that nothing like this thread would survive long on that forum.


Jim
JLD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2018, 09:37 AM   #145
Grand Vizier
 
Delfin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,457
Quote:
Originally Posted by Comodave View Post
If I owned an outboard Cutwater 30í boat, I would be stocking up on caulking and checking all possible water entry points in the sponson.
The fix doesn't seem complicated. Just form a raceway to carry the outboard controls, with access from the top of the strern platform. Then fill the balance of the sponson with foam. Problem solved, and probably cheaper to build than the whack doodle install they currently have.
Delfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2018, 10:56 AM   #146
Guru
 
Woodland Hills's Avatar
 
City: Jacksonville
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Alzero
Vessel Model: Hatteras 63' CPMY
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,494
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
The fix doesn't seem complicated. Just form a raceway to carry the outboard controls, with access from the top of the strern platform. Then fill the balance of the sponson with foam. Problem solved, and probably cheaper to build than the whack doodle install they currently have.
I wondered this also, it would seem to be the obvious way to get cables and hoses to the engines without compromising the integrity of the hull extension or having them be an eyesore. I wonder why it wasn’t done that way in the first place instead of the silliness with the pumps and holes in the platform.
Woodland Hills is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2018, 11:47 AM   #147
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 19,153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
The fix doesn't seem complicated. Just form a raceway to carry the outboard controls, with access from the top of the strern platform. Then fill the balance of the sponson with foam. Problem solved, and probably cheaper to build than the whack doodle install they currently have.
That is if the problem, and the only problem, is as we suspect. Unfortunately, an independent third party would also need to look at boats that hadn't sunk and hadn't been fixed to further evaluate. Difficult for anyone short of a forensic investigator such as NTSB or USCG to really figure out everything from a sunken and recovered boat. The surveyors wrote good reports based on the scope of their examinations but that scope was limited and it didn't involve hard questioning of either the builder or owner.
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2018, 11:59 AM   #148
Guru
 
twistedtree's Avatar
 
City: Gloucester, MA
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 5,765
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
Surveyor's report didn't says so and recommended testing, but based on the operator's manual, you don't need to keep a batter switch on since they were supposed to be directly wired to a power source. That guidance is contradicted by the wiring diagram, which shows the bilge pumps to be powered from a sub panel and thruster battery. Most owners aren't going to be electricians so would be expected to rely on the written word describing intended function. The surveyor expressed the opinion that the flapper valve that is supposed to prevent the inevitable water from sloshing into the sponson was inadequate. However you cut it, this Cutwater was very poorly thought out with the result that whatever the failings of the owner or dealer, the vessel capsized.


I took a look at the 302 wiring diagrams and my read is a bit different. I agree itís not super clear, but hereís my take.

First, according to the surveys, there are three pumps; two in the main bilge and found on the inboard as well as the outboard versions of the 302. Then a 3rd pump in the sponson, obviously unique to the outboard version of the 302.

The wiring diagram shows the dual main bulge pumps, but down NOT show the wiring on the outboard sponson pump. So we have no idea how itís wired, and whether itís the same or different from the main pumps.

The main pumps appear to be wired from two power sources; the thruster battery, and the house bank. This part is unclear, but I suspect this relates to the typical on, auto, off switches commonly used for bilge pumps. The power from the thruster battery runs through float switches, so would be the Auto power source. And the power from the thruster battery is always present for the pumps, even if the thruster switch is off. The switch only controls power to the thruster itself. This all seems reasonable, and agrees with the operators manual.

The second power source from the house bank is indeed switched by the battery switches, and there will be no power if the battery switches are turned off. I suspect this power source is only used for the Manual On operation of the pumps, but canít tell for certain.

Whatís completely unknown is how the sponson pump is wired. It might be the same as the other pumps, which would be fine, or it could be different with unknown implications.

Regardless of the wiring, the pump arrangement in the sponson seems problematic. The top of the sponson is barely above the water line, and that the highest any anti siphon loop could be for the pump. And there was no mention of an anti siphon in that hose run, making it highly susceptible to siphoning. The check flap would slow any back flow, but is never a substitute for an anti siphon vent. If the outlet remained submerged after the pump ran due to wave action, it would immediately start to siphon back into the sponson. Get enough water in the sponson, and the pump outlet would be permanently below the waterline with constant siphoning. The amount of water flow would be impeded by the flap, but definitely not a perfect seal, and perhaps a very poor seal if any debris got in it. Any pump failure and its curtains. Plus the pump could be running constantly and rapidly drain the battery. I suspect this was the first element in the chain of failures.

Now add the weight ( or lost buoyancy) of a flooded sponson that places the penetrations to the main hull below the water line. At that point itís all a done deal.
__________________
MVTanglewood.com
twistedtree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2018, 12:52 PM   #149
Guru
 
twistedtree's Avatar
 
City: Gloucester, MA
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 5,765
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al View Post
Greetings, I have read the full forum subject on this as well the full blog of the owner.
In review. There is much mention regarding the bilge pump in question located in the engine pod to which I would like to contribute. I will by the use of my personal incident with a Rule pump, (same manufacture).
In my case, on odd times there would be a substantial amount of water in the bilge without any apparent source. I would taste the bilge to confirm it being salt water after thinking that the source was a leaking hot water tank, not the case.
The bilge would be pumped and watched with no incoming water found. There would be days between with no issue. Then a voyage would be made and during that time checking the bilge, water would again be found. Of course, a complete search of the bilge an all, I repeat, all connections to the three Rule bilge pumps would be accomplished. with all connections tight.
After being at anchor one night, with guest aboard, checking for engine start up, I noticed a larger amount of water than even that found in earlier finds. This made the issue too serious to not find the answer.
BINGO!!! It came to me, the overboard outlet for the bilge pump was AT WATER LINE level. hence, with the extra folks onboard, the weight allowed the bilge pump discharge to be under water here is the find (THE RULE BILGE PUMP DOES NOT HAVE A CHECK VALVE BUILT INTO IT.) I found later that only recently had Rule redesigned pumps to include some sort of check ball, not in any of the existing pumps on board my boat.
I reinstalled the discharge hose with new that formed a hoop loop above the discharge and the issue was cured.
Having said this, if you review the photos of the engine pod and the bilge pump discharge, you will note that it comes in at or below the water line and is a direct drop to the pump.

What I am saying is with the water being forced up and about with the stern facing the waves, the water was coming in via the bilge pump and not the stern gaskets resulting in filling the pod. At some point as the boat was becoming laden, the inflow was increasing allowing faster flow backwards through the discharge hose to the and through the bilge pump itself. (No Check valve)

Al-Ketchikan.

I agree, and will add that a check valve is completely inadequate for preventing water ingress in such a situation. The only safe way to do it is with a vented loop that will break any siphon.


Al, it sounds like you have the loop, but does it have a vent at the apex of the loop? Without it, and siphon can still get started if the outlet is below the water line when the pump runs, and remains there like when you had guests on board, o if the boat has a heel because of tank imbalance, or wind, or whatever.
__________________
MVTanglewood.com
twistedtree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2018, 12:56 PM   #150
Guru
 
twistedtree's Avatar
 
City: Gloucester, MA
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 5,765
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Generally check valves are not recommended on bilge pumps....but loops are.

__________________
MVTanglewood.com
twistedtree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2018, 01:02 PM   #151
Grand Vizier
 
Delfin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,457
I recall remembering in one of the two surveyor's report that the owner turned off the power and left the boat. Based on this language in the owner's manual, one could conclude that doesn't matter:

"The bilge pumps operate automatically with electronic float switches when all switches and breakers are in the OFF position. "

Granted, this is from the manual for the 30', which is an inboard, and not the 302, which is for outboards, but there doesn't appear to be a separate manual for this new model online, so it may be safe to assume that the added third bilge pump in the sponson would have the same characteristics. If that proves incorrect and a manual for the 302 exists that warns the user not to turn off the power then that would be pretty important. Doubt it.

So, one of a number of different possibilities exist, most of which are not good for the builder.

1. The bilge pump was wired incorrectly
2. The bilge pumps are not as described in the manual
3. The bilge pump had a defective flapper valve as the surveyor indicated
4. The bilge pump was too small for the conditions
5. The bilge pump was wired correctly but was defective
6. A separate manual exists for the 302 telling the owner not to turn off power

Be all of that as it may, building a boat whose survival in commonly encountered boating conditions is dependent on a cheesy bilge pump is the height of stupidity in design, IMHO.
__________________
Delfin
"Dad always thought laughter was the best medicine, which I guess is why several of us died of tuberculosis." - Jack Handy
Delfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2018, 02:05 PM   #152
Guru
 
dhays's Avatar
 
City: Gig Harbor
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Kinship
Vessel Model: North Pacific 43
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 8,642
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
Be all of that as it may, building a boat whose survival in commonly encountered boating conditions is dependent on a cheesy bilge pump is the height of stupidity in design, IMHO.




Of course, what we think we know about the design may be all wrong. There could be some other design elements that prevent the water ingress that seems obvious from the pictures we have seen. I doubt it, but you never know.
__________________
Regards,

Dave
SPOT page
dhays is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2018, 02:34 PM   #153
Guru
 
twistedtree's Avatar
 
City: Gloucester, MA
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 5,765
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
I recall remembering in one of the two surveyor's report that the owner turned off the power and left the boat. Based on this language in the owner's manual, one could conclude that doesn't matter:

"The bilge pumps operate automatically with electronic float switches when all switches and breakers are in the OFF position. "

Granted, this is from the manual for the 30', which is an inboard, and not the 302, which is for outboards, but there doesn't appear to be a separate manual for this new model online, so it may be safe to assume that the added third bilge pump in the sponson would have the same characteristics. If that proves incorrect and a manual for the 302 exists that warns the user not to turn off the power then that would be pretty important. Doubt it.

So, one of a number of different possibilities exist, most of which are not good for the builder.

1. The bilge pump was wired incorrectly
2. The bilge pumps are not as described in the manual
3. The bilge pump had a defective flapper valve as the surveyor indicated
4. The bilge pump was too small for the conditions
5. The bilge pump was wired correctly but was defective
6. A separate manual exists for the 302 telling the owner not to turn off power

Be all of that as it may, building a boat whose survival in commonly encountered boating conditions is dependent on a cheesy bilge pump is the height of stupidity in design, IMHO.

I'd add another which I'm coming to believe is the most likely explanation...


"The sponson bilge pump pluming was subject to siphoning with no adequate protection."


That's related to your #3, but I would argue that even a fully functioning flapper is not a protection from siphoning.
__________________
MVTanglewood.com
twistedtree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2018, 03:04 PM   #154
Grand Vizier
 
Delfin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,457
Quote:
Originally Posted by twistedtree View Post
I'd add another which I'm coming to believe is the most likely explanation...


"The sponson bilge pump pluming was subject to siphoning with no adequate protection."


That's related to your #3, but I would argue that even a fully functioning flapper is not a protection from siphoning.
And my guess is that it is 2, 3, and 4, but perhaps we'll find out for sure sometime.

If I owned one of these, I'd demand the fix I described above. There is no need for a bilge pump if you fill the sponson with foam.
Delfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2018, 05:39 PM   #155
Guru
 
Benthic2's Avatar
 
City: Boston Area
Country: United States
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,652
I am starting to think that it would be better to buy a 2 or 3 year old boat than a brand new one.
Benthic2 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2018, 05:59 PM   #156
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 19,153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benthic2 View Post
I am starting to think that it would be better to buy a 2 or 3 year old boat than a brand new one.
Depends on the boat and the builder. A new undertaking such as an inboard converted to an outboard would bring some apprehension.
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2018, 06:35 PM   #157
Guru
 
BruceK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 11,363
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodland Hills View Post
Am I the only one whose forum feed is filled with ads for Cutwater boats?
Unless you like spam you need Adblock.
__________________
BruceK
2005 Integrity 386 "Sojourn"
Sydney Australia
BruceK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2018, 06:47 PM   #158
Grand Vizier
 
Delfin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,457
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benthic2 View Post
I am starting to think that it would be better to buy a 2 or 3 year old boat than a brand new one.
With or without this incident, that had always been prudent.
Delfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2018, 06:47 PM   #159
Guru
 
firstbase's Avatar
 
City: Jupiter, Florida
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Black Eyed Susan
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 42' Classic
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,474
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodland Hills View Post
Am I the only one whose forum feed is filled with ads for Cutwater boats?
I bet it is because you were searching for Cutwater boats and the advertisement cookies are kicking in. Clear your cache/delete cookies and they will go away. Technology. Ain't it grand.
__________________
Hal
BLACK EYED SUSAN
Grand Banks 42 Classic
firstbase is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-29-2018, 07:22 PM   #160
Guru
 
City: Boston
Country: US
Vessel Name: Adelante
Vessel Model: IG 30
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 944
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
So, one of a number of different possibilities exist, most of which are not good for the builder.

1. The bilge pump was wired incorrectly
2. The bilge pumps are not as described in the manual
3. The bilge pump had a defective flapper valve as the surveyor indicated
4. The bilge pump was too small for the conditions
5. The bilge pump was wired correctly but was defective
6. A separate manual exists for the 302 telling the owner not to turn off power
7. The bilge pump worked correctly but the battery was dead due to lack of charging

Agree that Rule cans are a bit cheesy and if I used Rule float switches I would have 3 in parallel, but I think focusing on the bilge pumps is a red herring.

The bilge pumps didn't sink the boat and ABYC is clear that they are designing to remove rain water and spray. They are not designed to dewater a swamped boat. The surveyors didn't check them for some unknown reason.

The surveyors imply that the sponson steering hose/bilge pump conduit wasn't sealed thus allowing water ingress. Design problem for sure. They also go into some weight calculations attempting to imply it changed the waterline .18m or about 7". This could be a design issue as the bilge pump overboard discharge through hull appears to be about 7" from waterline. The surveyors did not bother to measure the actual distance or determine if a vented loop was present.

Cutwater could still skate even If the surveyors (expert witnesses) can prove design defects. Shared liability. Canadian small vessel regulation SOR/2010-91, part 2, para 201 "The operator of a pleasure craft shall take all reasonable steps to ensure the safety of the craft and of every person on board."

Reasonable steps are facts decided by a judge but a reasonable person leaving a boat docked for a week or more might ensure that the batteries are topped up, the bilge pump switches aren't clogged and work as designed, mooring lines are secure, bow is facing prevailing wind, etc.

If the owner can get past the limited hull warranty via implied warranty of fitness attack (Canada's Sale of Goods Act) he then has to get past the section that states:

"... if the buyer has examined the goods, there is no implied condition as regards defects that such examination ought to have revealed."

Hmmm, 800 mile trip? certainly looks like he examined the boat. I suspect Cutwater will play hardball on this claim. Owner should take their settlement offer and move on.
__________________

SoWhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:50 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012
×