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Old 11-27-2018, 03:53 PM   #101
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Can anyone explain why a man who just spent $400k on a brand new boat should not think that it is ready to voyage? The individual concerned seems to be a pilot, could that have influenced his attitude given that a new aircraft of any sort would be fit for any trip at any time. Perhaps he hadn’t been brainwashed into accepting shoddy build quality and careless design as being acceptable to new buyers like seems to be normal for the marine industry. I see posters here saying that it is the buyers fault, since everyone knows that a new boat is delivered incomplete to the point of needing a marine survey prior to acceptance and actual useage. How did this state of affairs become normalized?
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Old 11-27-2018, 04:00 PM   #102
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Boat owner is the CEO of a heli sports company, divides his time between Yukon and Switzerland. If all the problems he had with this new boat are factual, I would say he got a lemon.
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Old 11-27-2018, 04:33 PM   #103
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Boat owner is the CEO of a heli sports company, divides his time between Yukon and Switzerland. If all the problems he had with this new boat are factual, I would say he got a lemon.
Says a lot too about why he didn't make sure he saw the trailer in advance and more frequent trips to the builder when he wasn't getting answers. Perhaps says why he didn't think he needed insurance.

He trusted everything to the dealer even when time after time the dealer's representative proved untrustworthy and continued the email communications even without responses.

Now, the sinking is still another issue. He could have done all the followup and dealer visits in the world but wouldn't have found anything to prevent the sinking. Another call for alarms that send you messages and cameras, but may not even have the communications needed where the boat was.

I do feel there's a design and build issue and it might have been the cause but then situation of bilge pump led to no prevention, but I think also a huge difference between boats and helicopters that helicopters sit where you left them and boats can sink. Most do so due to rain, but many do so due to water ingress from below, whether thru hull or bellows or pods or whatever. Years ago, I saw an I/O sink one day after delivery to the customer. Customer takes it home, docks it. Next morning looks out the window to see his nice new boat and can't see it. Sunk in his slip. Issue was an outdrive bellows. During the 80's we had a few Mercruiser sinkings on the lake due to muskrats eating through bellows.

Am I the only one who when I dock a boat, I'm still relieved when I return and it's sitting just as I left it? I'm just always a little apprehensive. I haven't seen as many sinkings on the coast but on the lake there was at least one a month when I was young.

I guess that's why I'm very sorry for a boat sinking but I'm by no means shocked by one.
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Old 11-27-2018, 05:06 PM   #104
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Whew, anybody getting tired yet? Good thing the September rodeo at Sidney City Marina didn't get posted. This Cutwater issue pales in comparison.
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Old 11-27-2018, 05:26 PM   #105
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And just exactly what does that have to do with the boat sinking due to a design flaw? Absolutely nothing, why conflate two separate issues. Wrong is wrong is and if it is a design issue (which it appears to be) then it doesn't matter who incurs the loss be it the owner or his insurer.

Is there no statutory warranty on new goods being sold in USA? Fit for purpose, merchantable quality,that kind of thing.
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Old 11-27-2018, 05:49 PM   #106
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And just exactly what does that have to do with the boat sinking due to a design flaw? Absolutely nothing, why conflate two separate issues. Wrong is wrong is and if it is a design issue (which it appears to be) then it doesn't matter who incurs the loss be it the owner or his insurer.

That is true, but I think a lot of us are reacting to the owners blog posts about it. I agree that not having insurance didn't affect the boat capsizing. In my mind it does speak to the experience and mindset of the owner. He wrote that he didn't get insurance because why would you insure a brand new boat, what could go wrong? That makes no sense to most of us, which is why we wonder about him.
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Old 11-27-2018, 05:50 PM   #107
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Is there no statutory warranty on new goods being sold in USA? Fit for purpose, merchantable quality,that kind of thing.
Implied warranty of merchantability. That's fitness of product for designed use. Now, I'm a bit uncertain whether this was a US sale or Canadian sale. Regardless, proving it wasn't fit could be a challenge. Ideally, Cutwater's insurance would cover it. However, if a court battle, an expensive and time consuming process. There would then be competing experts and many questions asked of the buyer including some that he almost certainly wouldn't have good answers to. The key in a trial would likely be the other boats of this model sold and what one could find out about them. A chance to examine one that hasn't sunk or been recalled and altered.
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Old 11-27-2018, 05:51 PM   #108
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Boat owner is the CEO of a heli sports company, divides his time between Yukon and Switzerland. If all the problems he had with this new boat are factual, I would say he got a lemon.
He also owns and pilots a Robinson R44. Clearly an intelligent successful business person who chose to self insure. Not the first person to do.

He may have relied upon the manual and assumed the bilge pumps were on. We can speculate that winds whipping down an 85mile long lake created enough chop to spill over the pontoon or stern possibly over a period of days as the owner works in Atlin and may not have checked his boat in Teslin. The owner clearly stated he hadn't used the boat much during the summer. At some point the thruster battery would have run down. The surveyor did not bother to check the state of the batteries or the wiring of the pump so we'll never know the answers to these questions.

As previously mentioned, there does not appear to be a 120V pedestal on the dock. There does not appear to be broken dock lines in the published photos. The al skiff may have been bailed out before photos were taken. We are left to endlessly guess about motives, design,

The uncredentialed surveyor offered some opinions but offered no specific data as to potential rate of ingress. From an engineering perspective I could not conclude it was a bad design from the information given. Yes it sank, but after a long trip.

I'm sure it will settle out of court so we will never know the answer. (Unless we book a week of unlimited back country powder skiing in the Yukon. 15-20K/wk. Each)
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Old 11-27-2018, 07:39 PM   #109
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Can anyone explain why a man who just spent $400k on a brand new boat should not think that it is ready to voyage?
The Model 302 page on the manufacturers website say it is "Fully equipped and ready to cruise". Given that he made the trip he did, apparently without major incident, I would say that was fairly true.
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Old 11-27-2018, 08:28 PM   #110
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The Model 302 page on the manufacturers website say it is "Fully equipped and ready to cruise". Given that he made the trip he did, apparently without major incident, I would say that was fairly true.

Sounds like the boat is great at cruising.


Being tied to a dock may be a different story...
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Old 11-27-2018, 08:54 PM   #111
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The boat sunk without any hull damage at the dock. We know this.

How some people here are blaming the owner is beyond me.

No insurance sunk the boat? No.

The owner's nagging emails to the dealer sunk the boat? No.

The owner's expectation that a new $300k boat would float at the dock was somehow his fault? Apparently to some here he should have known better.

When you find a fly in your soup next time I expect you to just eat it and don't send it back to the kitchen. Because you should have just known it could have been there and that's on you.
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Old 11-27-2018, 09:22 PM   #112
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The boat sunk without any hull damage at the dock. We know this.

How some people here are blaming the owner is beyond me.

No insurance sunk the boat? No.

The owner's nagging emails to the dealer sunk the boat? No.

The owner's expectation that a new $300k boat would float at the dock was somehow his fault? Apparently to some here he should have known better.

When you find a fly in your soup next time I expect you to just eat it and don't send it back to the kitchen. Because you should have just known it could have been there and that's on you.
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Old 11-27-2018, 09:22 PM   #113
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The boat sunk without any hull damage at the dock. We know this.
We donít know this. This is what the blogger says happened.

We donít know how the boat sank, even the surveyor said more testing would be needed.

How did a boat supposedly tied to the dock end up completely detached from the dock?

I think there are far to many unknowns to start assigning blame to the owner, broker or manufacturer.

At this point you canít even rule out Vandalism.
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Old 11-27-2018, 09:34 PM   #114
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They thought the Tiitanic was unsinkable....

Guess I have seen so many sunk boats, I guess I don't trust any of them.
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Old 11-27-2018, 09:39 PM   #115
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The uncredentialed surveyor offered some opinions but offered no specific data as to potential rate of ingress. From an engineering perspective I could not conclude it was a bad design from the information given. Yes it sank, but after a long trip.
One reminder. All surveyors are basically uncredentialed. Most choose to join an association. However, there's not licensing for boat surveyors. I don't know if either of the surveyors is good or reputable, but I can't assume they aren't.
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Old 11-27-2018, 09:44 PM   #116
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Greetings, I have read the full forum subject on this as well the full blog of the owner.
In review. There is much mention regarding the bilge pump in question located in the engine pod to which I would like to contribute. I will by the use of my personal incident with a Rule pump, (same manufacture).
In my case, on odd times there would be a substantial amount of water in the bilge without any apparent source. I would taste the bilge to confirm it being salt water after thinking that the source was a leaking hot water tank, not the case.
The bilge would be pumped and watched with no incoming water found. There would be days between with no issue. Then a voyage would be made and during that time checking the bilge, water would again be found. Of course, a complete search of the bilge an all, I repeat, all connections to the three Rule bilge pumps would be accomplished. with all connections tight.
After being at anchor one night, with guest aboard, checking for engine start up, I noticed a larger amount of water than even that found in earlier finds. This made the issue too serious to not find the answer.
BINGO!!! It came to me, the overboard outlet for the bilge pump was AT WATER LINE level. hence, with the extra folks onboard, the weight allowed the bilge pump discharge to be under water here is the find (THE RULE BILGE PUMP DOES NOT HAVE A CHECK VALVE BUILT INTO IT.) I found later that only recently had Rule redesigned pumps to include some sort of check ball, not in any of the existing pumps on board my boat.
I reinstalled the discharge hose with new that formed a hoop loop above the discharge and the issue was cured.
Having said this, if you review the photos of the engine pod and the bilge pump discharge, you will note that it comes in at or below the water line and is a direct drop to the pump.

What I am saying is with the water being forced up and about with the stern facing the waves, the water was coming in via the bilge pump and not the stern gaskets resulting in filling the pod. At some point as the boat was becoming laden, the inflow was increasing allowing faster flow backwards through the discharge hose to the and through the bilge pump itself. (No Check valve)

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Old 11-27-2018, 10:33 PM   #117
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Greetings, I have read the full forum subject on this as well the full blog of the owner.
In review. There is much mention regarding the bilge pump in question located in the engine pod to which I would like to contribute. I will by the use of my personal incident with a Rule pump, (same manufacture).
In my case, on odd times there would be a substantial amount of water in the bilge without any apparent source. I would taste the bilge to confirm it being salt water after thinking that the source was a leaking hot water tank, not the case.
The bilge would be pumped and watched with no incoming water found. There would be days between with no issue. Then a voyage would be made and during that time checking the bilge, water would again be found. Of course, a complete search of the bilge an all, I repeat, all connections to the three Rule bilge pumps would be accomplished. with all connections tight.
After being at anchor one night, with guest aboard, checking for engine start up, I noticed a larger amount of water than even that found in earlier finds. This made the issue too serious to not find the answer.
BINGO!!! It came to me, the overboard outlet for the bilge pump was AT WATER LINE level. hence, with the extra folks onboard, the weight allowed the bilge pump discharge to be under water here is the find (THE RULE BILGE PUMP DOES NOT HAVE A CHECK VALVE BUILT INTO IT.) I found later that only recently had Rule redesigned pumps to include some sort of check ball, not in any of the existing pumps on board my boat.
I reinstalled the discharge hose with new that formed a hoop loop above the discharge and the issue was cured.
Having said this, if you review the photos of the engine pod and the bilge pump discharge, you will note that it comes in at or below the water line and is a direct drop to the pump.

What I am saying is with the water being forced up and about with the stern facing the waves, the water was coming in via the bilge pump and not the stern gaskets resulting in filling the pod. At some point as the boat was becoming laden, the inflow was increasing allowing faster flow backwards through the discharge hose to the and through the bilge pump itself. (No Check valve)

Al-Ketchikan.
Yep.
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Old 11-28-2018, 12:12 AM   #118
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This is disturbing! (new Cutwater boat)

Agreed. Seen that too often.

Couple of other comments.

The pump switch issue has been conflated. The owners manual appears to be discussing the pumpís panel switch position, not the battery switch position. On-pump runís constantly. Off-runs only when float switch is activated. Does not address the wiring to the master battery switch. This is what is confusing some posters where it appears that the wiring diagram shows connection through the battery switch and not directly to battery bank. So the owners manual could be misinterpreted by some who think they have pump protection even when batteries are switched off. But they donít.

Float switches are notoriously unreliable. They are the most often changed mechanical product on my boat. I have a like/hate relationship with mine and check them daily. Failure of a float switch during a progressive flooding event would be catastrophic.

The boat had a lot of incomplete internal plumbing issues upon delivery. That would have been unacceptable to me. May not be germane to the sinking issue but I would still look at it carefully as part of an investigation.

I am intrigued with amount of corrosion issues found after sinking. The lake was fresh water, yes? How much of the corrosion was caused during the delivery trip to Alaska in salt water in bad weather? I know there are a lot of electronics in modern outboards but I did not think they would be badly damaged by fresh water immersion. I would have thought immediate treatment with water displacement fluids would have saved them. But I really donít know so would be interested to hear from real experience.

The second surveyors hired (IMC) were engaged by the owners lawyers. I know them fairly well and they do a significant amount of insurance defense work including litigation support. They tend to be well credentialed marine engineers. They will have no issue with being qualified in any court.

I understand some contributors comments stating the horror of having no insurance. I will note that insurance is a form of gambling where the insurance company is the Ďhouseí and the odds are always in their favor. I do know some wealthy individuals who forego some types of insurance as they have made their own calculation of the odds and believe themselves to be on the good side. In this case his thought process might be Ďthis is a new boat, warranties will be covered by defects, I am a good pilot and unlikely to cause harm by my operating skills. The likelihood of a claim is more likely to fall on the manufacturer than me. In which case I will just sue to recover.í As someone noted, lack of insurance didnít cause the sinking. It just made the financial recovery more complex.
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Old 11-28-2018, 03:51 AM   #119
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We don’t know this. This is what the blogger says happened.
The owner has provided more than just his word. He has provided pictures and two post sinking surveys.

Are we to assume the surveys which were commissioned to ascertain the cause of the sinking missed hull damage in their assessment?

Even the most dimwitted or biased surveyors I have trouble believing would miss / omit these facts.
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Old 11-28-2018, 06:14 AM   #120
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I agree that waterline through hulls can be a dangerous thing without a loop. In this case, it very well could have been the causal factor.

I don't think I have ever had or seen a bilge pump with a built in check valve.

I have bought Johnson pumps that had one that you could add on, but not permanently attached.

Generally check valves are not recommended on bilge pumps....but loops are.
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