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Old 11-24-2018, 04:33 PM   #21
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I still cannot get over the fact that he did not have insurance.
What was his thinking/reason?
Does he drive his car w/o insurance?
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Old 11-24-2018, 04:45 PM   #22
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Surveyor identified some potential issues and correctly proposed some additional power on tests to narrow things down. A mechanical engineer or marine architect would then be required to analyze the design to see if it meets appropriate standards. It then becomes a battle between the expert witnesses.

If the bilge pumps were not hard wired to the battery then the owners manual may have had specific instructions on operation. Surveyor did not reference manual. If owner did not follow manual then he would be SOL.

ABYC standards do not mandate hard wired pumps. I believe most installations have an auto switch with a manual override. Surveyor did not mention position of switch. Also note that ABYC only addresses pumps used for normal spray, rainwater and spillage. It does not set standards for damage control pumps.

Cutwater claims their boats are certified to NMMA (ABYC) standards. Their literature states the 302 is supplied with 2 12V auto bilge pumps. I suspect they would argue that it was not forseeable that an owner would dock stern to large waves and the installed bilge pumps were not designed to deal with a swamping condition.

Owner is fighting an uphill battle.
Couldn't find the operators manual for the 32, but this is the language from the 30 regarding bilge pumps:

BILGE PUMP SYSTEM
The bilge pumps operate automatically with electronic float switches when all switches and breakers are in the OFF position. However, the BILGE PUMP and BILGE PUMP2 will run continuously once their switches are placed in the on position. Monitor the outflow accordingly. Do not run when dry.


Doesn't sound like they wired the pumps through the main battery switch, but directly. However, if you look at the wiring diagram, if I am reading it correctly, it indicates exactly the opposite. Go figure.
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Old 11-24-2018, 04:54 PM   #23
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Only ones to come out ahead on this deal will be the lawyers.
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Old 11-24-2018, 04:58 PM   #24
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How could it “not be foreseeable” that waves might come from the stern quarter? Is it also unforeseeable that the wind might shift direction too? Again: the product, as sold, was not fit for purpose. It could not be used as a boat as delivered and when it was, it sank at the dock. The abysmal build quality and horrendous customer service is another matter altogether.
And what did they say about a following sea?

Bilge pump are inexpensive insurance.
The bilge pump shown is, IMO, good enough to drain a fish tank.

My boat came with one bilge pump in the ER. Now it has 4 bilge pumps with float switches, one in every compartment connected to bilge pump counter, high water alarm and 4 inch fire bell.

I also have a spare pump with battery clips (long cord) with a long discharge hose.

The builder understandable believed only one pump was necessary because the ER has all the hull valves. It is designed so each compartment is water tight, supposedly. It is that "supposedly" that motivated me to add 3 more bilge pumps. The boat is designed to have 'dry bilges' and all bilges are dry except when I wash them. Then, it takes a wet vac to get what little water there is after washing.
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Old 11-24-2018, 05:59 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
Couldn't find the operators manual for the 32, but this is the language from the 30 regarding bilge pumps:

Doesn't sound like they wired the pumps through the main battery switch, but directly. However, if you look at the wiring diagram, if I am reading it correctly, it indicates exactly the opposite. Go figure.
Schematics are very confusing. Appears to be 4 batteries, each with Battery switch. Thruster battery feeds an 8 position sub panel then to bilge pumps that appear to be routed through a 30A breaker and then through 5A fuses located on a fuse block to the float switch. The wipers go through the same 30A breaker. CO2 and hi water alarm are on the same fuse block.

Text claims pumps run on auto if switches are off or manually if on. Makes no sense. If the breaker is off then there is no current. Period. Maybe they meant to wire the pumps to the hot side of the breaker that has dual lugs??? Guessing because that is contrary to what the schematic says.

Still leaves the question of what happens when Thruster battery switch is off.
As previously stated. lawyers will be smiling.
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Old 11-24-2018, 06:15 PM   #26
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+1 on not understanding why someone would not have insurance. Heck, I keep minimal insurance on my 15 foot West Wight Potter sailboat. Don't need any liability worries.

I seem to have read numerous stories of boats sinking because bilge pumps not on or not working. When I get a boat that stays in the water, definitely will pay attention to the bilge pumps and likely install additional pump(s) as well.

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Old 11-24-2018, 08:12 PM   #27
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This will now be part of the boat's history, "sunk at the dock".

I am surprised the surveyor did not declare it a 'constructive loss.'
Dan, on Page 7 of the first Surveyors Report he did state that it was a Total Constructive Loss.

As someone else said, it may have sunk due to design flaws but something is missing in this story. 1,900 mile cruise with no insurance because everything is covered under warrantee? Maybe it's just me but he sounded sort of like a jerk from his first email to the dealer. Wonder what the dealer would have to say....

When he buys another boat I hope he spends more energy on worrying about the basics i.e. number and size of bilge pumps and less about the bar-b-que.
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Old 11-24-2018, 08:16 PM   #28
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Schematics are very confusing. Appears to be 4 batteries, each with Battery switch. Thruster battery feeds an 8 position sub panel then to bilge pumps that appear to be routed through a 30A breaker and then through 5A fuses located on a fuse block to the float switch. The wipers go through the same 30A breaker. CO2 and hi water alarm are on the same fuse block.

Text claims pumps run on auto if switches are off or manually if on. Makes no sense. If the breaker is off then there is no current. Period. Maybe they meant to wire the pumps to the hot side of the breaker that has dual lugs??? Guessing because that is contrary to what the schematic says.

Still leaves the question of what happens when Thruster battery switch is off.
As previously stated. lawyers will be smiling.

Where are you seeing this? Not the schematic Delfin posted?
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Old 11-24-2018, 08:21 PM   #29
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No winners in this one. I feel for the owner. I read the whole blog and if what he has posted is true, I was pretty unhappy before the boat sunk with how he was treated.

I was a potential Ranger Tugs / Cutwater boat buyer a year or so ago. After looking at a few and doing my due diligence. I rather quickly noticed that questionable design choices were often made across their model lines. I lost interest.

Anyone who frequents the Tugnuts message board will notice (if you aren't blind to it by brand loyalty) that a TON of these boats are delivered with basic issues. None more than the one shown in this thread though. The manufacturer is constantly having to correct issues after delivery. The members of that forum applaud them and say it is great "customer service", which may be true, but I suppose to me, it led me to believe they are making enough money on these boats to afford to spend triple or 10x on small repairs which any normal company would not allow to happen.

And realistically, if a boat manufacturer can't hook up a shower sump pump up correctly or be bothered to tighten bolts on a steering rod, but then can afford to send a repair tech hundreds of miles to repair minor issues, what does it tell you?

To me it means they are building boats too fast, at low quality and at too high of a price.
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Old 11-24-2018, 08:32 PM   #30
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However much of a ninny the owner might turn out to be, or not to be, I think what happened is pretty obvious. Cutwater had a successful 30' hull powered by an inboard diesel. They wanted to offer an outboard powered version, so someone did the calcs to see what additional flotation in the stern would be needed to hang a couple of 600# outboards off that stern. That determined the size of the "sponson", which in turn determined the size of the swim platform. However, they still had to route fuel and control lines to the outboards, so rather than have them cross over the top of the swim platform they routed them through the sponson. To save a few $, the penetrations through the hull, which are now very near the waterline because they travel under the swim platform, were not made watertight. No problem, just run down to West Marine and throw in a $30 bilge pump to deal with the inevitable ingress of water to the sponson. Whether it failed, was wired incorrectly or the owner read the manual that said the bilge pumps were powered regardless of battery switching so disconnected the batteries I have no idea. However, the amateurishness of the engineering proved inadequate to deal with a bit of chop, so the boat capsized.
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Old 11-24-2018, 08:38 PM   #31
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So Cutwater builds a boat with a hole at the water line for the control wires and cable for the two outboard motors hanging on the stern. There plan then is to have a bilge pump to pump out all that water coming in the hole, and maybe a backup pump in case that fails. They should also equip the boats with solar panels in case the batteries get low. What would also work would be a yellow strobe light mounted up high that goes off right before the batteries die, to alert those around, I'm about to sink. Another backup would be an inflatable skirt like what you see on a walker bay. So with the water coming in the hole for the motor controls and the bilge pumps don't work or the batteries die or the solar panels and the strobe light fails. I believe the inflatable skirt will work. Problem solved, I think I should work for Cutwater!

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Old 11-24-2018, 08:44 PM   #32
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Where are you seeing this? Not the schematic Delfin posted?
The manual is here: http://www.tugnuts.com/download/file.php?id=680

The boat in question is the same as the 30, except that it has the 'AUTO CAPSIZE' features associated with the outboard installation, so I think this manual is the correct one.
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Old 11-24-2018, 09:19 PM   #33
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Some of this seems like very basic common sense to me. Plenty of blame to dole out to all parties. If the owner was that inexperienced, he should have had a new boat survey done, he should have taken some basic maintenance training, and he should have had some insurance. Had he had any experience with boats, he probably would have walked away from it after a cursory inspection. The insurance rationalization is particularly puzzling: if he'd holed it on a rock was he expecting the warrantee to kick in?

His story is not unique - I've read lots of stories about people getting very well offshore and only then discovering extremely basic problems with the boat, the kind of thing any grade schooler with any more sense than God gave lettuce, would scratch their heads and say WTF? All with an hour or two inspection at the dock.

Not taking any blame away from Cutwater for building a bad boat, but this owner got an education, and an expensive one. He only needed to read a book or two, or a couple of magazines, or even a web forum, to have avoided this at zero cost. Caveat emptor.
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Old 11-24-2018, 09:43 PM   #34
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Dan, on Page 7 of the first Surveyors Report he did state that it was a Total Constructive Loss.

As someone else said, it may have sunk due to design flaws but something is missing in this story. 1,900 mile cruise with no insurance because everything is covered under warrantee? Maybe it's just me but he sounded sort of like a jerk from his first email to the dealer. Wonder what the dealer would have to say....

When he buys another boat I hope he spends more energy on worrying about the basics i.e. number and size of bilge pumps and less about the bar-b-que.
You are correct, I did not read the entire survey. I skimmed it.
Well, I still would have bought insurance.... especially liability insurance.
Proving a design flaw will be difficult especially if the company has taken the boat.
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Old 11-24-2018, 10:01 PM   #35
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I thought at least some form of basic insurance was compulsory for recreational boats?
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Old 11-24-2018, 10:05 PM   #36
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For the most part no unless it is required by a lender for finance reasons or for marina/slip lease/rental. I believe some states require liability insurance only in order to register but not all. Not sure about Canada.
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Old 11-25-2018, 12:05 AM   #37
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One of the many advantages of a large outboard as compared to a stern drive is no bellows. This eliminates several potential large water ingress locations. Fountain, Grady White, Intrepid and Trophy outboards that I am familiar with have the connections well above the water line and entering the hull via beefy purpose designed rubber grommets or similar. Maybe Cutwater/Ranger Tug needs to do a recall.

This entire story as told by one side is sad. Just wondering about the no insurance thing raises the specter of a Paul Harvey moment.
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Old 11-25-2018, 09:02 AM   #38
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I thought at least some form of basic insurance was compulsory for recreational boats?

Not anywhere in the US that I'm aware of.
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Old 11-25-2018, 09:29 AM   #39
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500,000 to repair, ok. So what does that mean to this boat, is it going to a landfill?
Or is that cost estimate only if skilled expensive labor and parts are pursued.

No fool would spend that sum I would think.




And then this idiocy, creating many years without a summer.
https://www.rt.com/news/444762-global-warming-dim-sun/
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Old 11-25-2018, 09:58 AM   #40
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Why would anyone believe anything on RT.com? It’s just propaganda and fake news.......
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