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Old 11-30-2018, 06:54 PM   #201
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Yep, what he said.

I would add that this is a recent event and Cutwater hasn't really had time to respond yet. If they're smart, they'll make this customer whole with a nice new boat with an appropriate scheme for flotation to support those honking big outboards hanging 3' off the stern, and apply that same fix to every boat they've sold. And as you said, the minute they start fixing anyone's boat, they have acknowledged a problem that needs to be addressed and any defense they made no errors in the initial design go out the window.

One of my main points is they have had many opportunities to respond. The boat sank on Sept 9 and the dealer was notified immediately. Both the dealer and the builder hid under their desks! (or went fishing according to the owner) I don't see how the builder could turn this around now.. According to the owner , assuming he is telling the truth, the builder and dealer have been non-responsive since the sinking.
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Old 11-30-2018, 07:12 PM   #202
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TT
What does the owner want is an interesting question. If he is truly self insured under Canadian law there are several potential outcomes. If he wants revenge there are other avenues. If he wants to be made whole there are steps that could have been taken absent the Internet. A lawsuit in US court is not without entanglements as previously noted.

So blog site postings aside, where this tragedy goes for resolution seems in the Owner's corner. And likely not known for our curiosities.
Every so often,someone with deep pockets and or fire in the soul for recompense of one kind or another suffers a wrong at someone else`s hands. In that event, the might and force of a large corporation or insurer is blunted,I wish him well.
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Old 11-30-2018, 07:52 PM   #203
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Given that two surveyors inspected the vessel and both concluded the same thing, yes, I think we know what sank it.
Their reports are hardly conclusive. Both apparently hired by the owner, so there is that tilt. And no test of the bilge pumps and no analysis of the circuitry was reportedly done. And neither splashed the boat to test the flooding characteristics, or did any other test that would quantify the apparent design fault. Just a walk-around analysis, certainly not an in depth investigation.

True the rigging tubes would likely leak into the hull in a stern low situation, but what is the leak rate? Beyond the pump capability? None of us know. And neither do the surveyors.

My gut feel is that if the bilge pumps were operable, and deck hatches in place, this event would not have occurred. Of course I have little to base that on, it is simply a gut feel.
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Old 11-30-2018, 08:21 PM   #204
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.....- think the Firestone recall of 14.5 million tires because the treads would fly off if you went fast and cause sometimes fatal accidents. ....
If you recall, early on Ford said it was Firestone's fault....and Firestone said it was Ford's fault. Then...after Firestone swore up and down that recalling 6 million tires was unquestionable sufficient, they recalled another 7 or 8 million. No one here stepped up and did the right and honorable thing until they were absolutely forced to.

You also have to remember that you had the deaths of 140 people and the US Govt NHTSA pushing the issue.

The Ford/Firestone issue was NOT an example of a corporation accepting responsibility, nor victory for the little guy vs Goliath.

This case is one solitary individual against a large company ( granted, not as large as Ford or Firestone ). His odds are slim at best. I would be willing to bet he gets screwed!!


I agree that the cheapest and best solution for Cutwater is take the next 302 produced, put it on a trailer, and deliver it to this guy.

I am sure that in 5 years, Cutwater executives will agree that would have been the best course of action.

I seriously, seriously doubt that is what will happen.
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Old 11-30-2018, 08:22 PM   #205
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Also, can someone with some electrical knowledge give a very round number, back of the napkin type of calculation as to how long a bilge pump can run on a typical house battery ?
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Old 11-30-2018, 09:09 PM   #206
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A Rule 500 draws 1.2 amps which would run for about 70 hours or so on a 100 AH deep cycle. Something like that I believe. I'm sure someone will give a more exact example.
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Old 11-30-2018, 09:15 PM   #207
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If you recall, early on Ford said it was Firestone's fault....and Firestone said it was Ford's fault. Then...after Firestone swore up and down that recalling 6 million tires was unquestionable sufficient, they recalled another 7 or 8 million. No one here stepped up and did the right and honorable thing until they were absolutely forced to.

You also have to remember that you had the deaths of 140 people and the US Govt NHTSA pushing the issue.

The Ford/Firestone issue was NOT an example of a corporation accepting responsibility, nor victory for the little guy vs Goliath.

This case is one solitary individual against a large company ( granted, not as large as Ford or Firestone ). His odds are slim at best. I would be willing to bet he gets screwed!!


I agree that the cheapest and best solution for Cutwater is take the next 302 produced, put it on a trailer, and deliver it to this guy.

I am sure that in 5 years, Cutwater executives will agree that would have been the best course of action.

I seriously, seriously doubt that is what will happen.
I didn't suggest that Firestone was an example of anything other than a clear case of a manufacturer's defect. It wasn't a close call, nor is this one. The owner could be a complete moron; the surveyors his brothers. What is indisputable is that the boat sank. With no insurance, I'm going out on a limb and assume he didn't scuttle his own boat, which leaves us with the one thing we know - a new boat with other quality issues sank at the dock.
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Old 11-30-2018, 09:27 PM   #208
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Agreed, the two are unrelated. If the vessel was insured, and the insurer paid the claim, it's likely the insurer would then subrogate the builder's insurer...
Steve, you are certainly an expert, and certainly a disinterested party. Given the "self drain" outlet on the starboard side of the sponson they bolted onto the transom to provide offsetting flotation for the weight of the outboards, and it's position on the underside of the swim platform, does it surprise you that water flowered into that outlet as waves lapped under the swim platform? You need not answer if you don't want to get in the middle of this conversation.....
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Old 11-30-2018, 09:35 PM   #209
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Ranger/Cutwater tests some, maybe all, of their boats in Lake Washington. They launch them right next door to my marina. I've sat on my bow and watched them. They appear to perform an extensive sea trial, testing all the systems. A lot is done right at the launch ramp, and then they take off out on the lake. The whole process takes a couple of hours. I have several friends that have had Rangers and one who had a Cutwater (not the one I noted in post 16). They were all very happy with them, but this was quite a few years ago, so the quality control may have changed. I personally don't care for them. I think they try to pack too many gimmicks in too small a space.
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Old 11-30-2018, 09:45 PM   #210
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Their reports are hardly conclusive. Both apparently hired by the owner, so there is that tilt. And no test of the bilge pumps and no analysis of the circuitry was reportedly done. And neither splashed the boat to test the flooding characteristics, or did any other test that would quantify the apparent design fault. Just a walk-around analysis, certainly not an in depth investigation.

True the rigging tubes would likely leak into the hull in a stern low situation, but what is the leak rate? Beyond the pump capability? None of us know. And neither do the surveyors.
3rd year law student would eat these surveyors for lunch. Their reports were a bunch of opinions with no foundation. They could have easily determined the voltage of the battery, recorded the pump head, measured the pump flow through the corrugated hose, and derived a reasonable number stating probable pump capacity. Instead they offer a statement "...the pumping system would be inadequate" ignoring the fact that the pumping system was designed to clear out rain water. I would be surprised if the one connected pump was capable of pushing out 500gph.

Very biased reports and both surveyors wrote very similar reports. Neither offered any quantitative analysis. Can't see where Cutwater would blink first.
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Old 11-30-2018, 10:19 PM   #211
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True the rigging tubes would likely leak into the hull in a stern low situation, but what is the leak rate? Beyond the pump capability? None of us know. And neither do the surveyors.

My gut feel is that if the bilge pumps were operable, and deck hatches in place, this event would not have occurred. Of course I have little to base that on, it is simply a gut feel.





I know as I own a 2018 302. I've put 140 hours on her over the summer since I took delivery in June. I watched my hull(#56) built from the fiberglass up through multiple phases of the build and know this boat inside and out.




I created an account here on TF to dispel some of the incorrect info here. First, The sponson does not provide buoyancy , just like any other sponson or offshore bracket. The hull provides adequate bouoyancy and the sponson serves as a mount for the engines and step, just like the words definition in the dictionary.


Secondly, the sponson can be swamped, and the waterproof control conduits sit above the waterline inside the sponson, then stovepipe up 10 inches inside the hull. last time I checked, water cant travel uphill


Third, this was not a outboard conversion on Cutwaters regular 30 hull. The cutwater 30 with volvo's is a displacement hull. The 302 is a completely different mold and a planing hull with a double step and flow interrupters. Entirely different beasts...


While it is curious that he removed the plates and ran the boat without them, or replaced them with different plates...it doesnt have any bearing on the boat sinking. I surmise it likely contributed to the rate the boat took on water in a compromised state. That state being that he left the boat moored or anchored for over a month without shore power. Who knows how much water was already in the hull when the bad weather "happened"
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Old 11-30-2018, 10:27 PM   #212
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A Rule 500 draws 1.2 amps which would run for about 70 hours or so on a 100 AH deep cycle. Something like that I believe. I'm sure someone will give a more exact example.
I believe the Rule 1100 draws 3.3A. The batteries installed are not specified by the surveyor but the thruster mfgr requires a min of standard 12V Group 24 AGM Deep Cycle Battery - 80 Ah, 550 CCA. Typical specs state 524 minutes at 8A to bring it down to depth of discharge. (aka dead)

So it's possible battery went flat within 24 hours if Cutwater installed minimum size. In any case neither the battery nor the bilge pump was designed to cope with a flooded boat over a long period of time.
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Old 11-30-2018, 10:37 PM   #213
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I know as I own a 2018 302. I've put 140 hours on her over the summer since I took delivery in June. I watched my hull(#56) built from the fiberglass up through multiple phases of the build and know this boat inside and out.
Many thanks for joining and sharing your experience. We will now subject you to cross examination

(I really like their design approach (the inboard version.) I think they nailed it on comfort, convenience, and performance)
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Old 11-30-2018, 11:07 PM   #214
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I know as I own a 2018 302. I've put 140 hours on her over the summer since I took delivery in June. I watched my hull(#56) built from the fiberglass up through multiple phases of the build and know this boat inside and out.




I created an account here on TF to dispel some of the incorrect info here. First, The sponson does not provide buoyancy , just like any other sponson or offshore bracket. The hull provides adequate bouoyancy and the sponson serves as a mount for the engines and step, just like the words definition in the dictionary.


Secondly, the sponson can be swamped, and the waterproof control conduits sit above the waterline inside the sponson, then stovepipe up 10 inches inside the hull. last time I checked, water cant travel uphill


Third, this was not a outboard conversion on Cutwaters regular 30 hull. The cutwater 30 with volvo's is a displacement hull. The 302 is a completely different mold and a planing hull with a double step and flow interrupters. Entirely different beasts...


While it is curious that he removed the plates and ran the boat without them, or replaced them with different plates...it doesnt have any bearing on the boat sinking. I surmise it likely contributed to the rate the boat took on water in a compromised state. That state being that he left the boat moored or anchored for over a month without shore power. Who knows how much water was already in the hull when the bad weather "happened"
Since the 30' has a top speed of 26 knots, it is, like the 302, a planning hull. Both displace the same. Other than the power plant, the difference, at least according to Power and Motor Yacht and Cutwater is....

"Instead of the single step that energized the inboard-powered C-30 Sedan, the 302 has two. Moreover, she’s also got “Laminar Flow Interrupters” at the bow (more about this in a moment), and, instead of a single 435-horsepower Volvo Penta D6 under the cockpit sole, there are twin 300-horsepower Yamaha outboards abaft her transom."


I'd be curious to know why the sponson isn't intended to provide buoyancy since the 302 removes a Volvo diesel weighing 770 pounds that is inboard of the transom and replaces it with about twice that weight 30" or so outboard of the transom.

Be all that as it may, what does you manual say about bilge pumps? Are they always on regardless of the power switching, like in the 30 or switched through the battery switches? And could you be specific on what plates you are referring to that the owner in this case removed? Not sure what those are, but I'm glad we have an owner of the 302 to provide practical information.
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Old 12-01-2018, 12:03 AM   #215
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I am having a hard time thinking that a boat can go from "OK" to sunk in about 8-10 hours. Presumably if you can see your boat from your house, you would see it multiple times per day. If you saw the boat low in the stern, you'd investigage. If you had any suspicions, you'd put it on the trailer. I don't know how you go from " my boat looks fine" to " my boats underwater" in such a short time.

It is also very troubling that the boat did not sink tied to the dock. All the lines broke simultaneously in a minor storm ?

There's another shoe somewere that hasn't dropped yet.
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Old 12-01-2018, 12:07 AM   #216
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All 4 bilge pumps in the 302 are direct-wired to the battery and always on. All have float switches and the fore and two aft within the hull can also be controlled manually from a helm rocker switch. If powered, they would together provide 3300gph within the hull assuming you had enough water in there to activate all three simultaneously.




The plates I was referring to are the two access plates atop the sponson. Factory plates are white and gasketed, and in some of the pictures from this owner there are black plates that dont appear gasketed.
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Old 12-01-2018, 12:11 AM   #217
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It is also very troubling that the boat did not sink tied to the dock. All the lines broke simultaneously in a minor storm ?

There's another shoe somewere that hasn't dropped yet.

Agree, and how did the boat end up settling upwind from dock and the direction of the waves and wind as it sunk? wouldnt 2 foot waves and associated wind push the boat the opposite direction from where it sat?
Where are the bumpers on both boats, did he tie direct to the dock without any protection?


All things that make a man say Hmmmm..
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Old 12-01-2018, 01:12 AM   #218
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Agree, and how did the boat end up settling upwind from dock and the direction of the waves and wind as it sunk? wouldnt 2 foot waves and associated wind push the boat the opposite direction from where it sat?
Where are the bumpers on both boats, did he tie direct to the dock without any protection?

All things that make a man say Hmmmm..
The 2 foot waves remark has me baffled. 2 ft waves would not have left that aluminum boat dry. I suspect the dock itself would have a hard time in 2 foot waves and the kayak trimaran too. Plus the owner said his dock is in a sheltered cove off the lake.

On the other hand leaving a boat on a mooring or dock unplugged for a month (where did you get that figure from?) should not be a big deal either. I see boats left for years at a time still floating at the dock without any attention whatsoever.
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Old 12-01-2018, 02:30 AM   #219
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The 2 foot waves remark has me baffled. 2 ft waves would not have left that aluminum boat dry. I suspect the dock itself would have a hard time in 2 foot waves and the kayak trimaran too. Plus the owner said his dock is in a sheltered cove
The skiff might have been bailed out before the photos. A light skiff would ride over the chop and probably wouldn't collect that much water. Chop would ride over a heavier boat. A cup full or two every few seconds could add up to a lot of water. It could have been a 3' chop. Owner was asleep so really has no knowledge of conditions. Owner lives a couple of miles north of Teslin village. The cove does not appear to be sheltered from northerly winds.
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Old 12-01-2018, 06:43 AM   #220
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It is also very troubling that the boat did not sink tied to the dock. All the lines broke simultaneously in a minor storm ?

There's another shoe somewere that hasn't dropped yet.

The lines...where are the lines...and bumpers... Also, wouldn't a boat experiencing a relatively slow ingress of water sink fairly even keel straight down? Water would have plenty of time to find the bilge and fill from the bottom up. What would make it turn turtle and turn turtle "out there", away from dock?

Where is Paul Harvey when we need him? The rest of the story....
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