Disputing Marina Fees

[angus99]

We kept our boat at a marina on the Chesapeake for about four years and spent probably $20K on upgrades and repairs. Generally, the work has been good and the people very nice. I only questioned one previous bill, until now . . . in fact, I have two issues:

1). We had a problem with one of the Waeco refrigerators not working on 12V DC (AC was fine). It took two techs several hours to consult manuals, diagnose a bad fan and replace it. Not fixed—and the original fan works fine. I called the manuf and their tech gave me a 5-minute procedure to detrmine whether it was the fan or compressor. The bill from the marina is $460 to replace a working fan.

2). I posted earlier this year about a clacking noise I heard in the starboard gearbox. The junior-level tech the yard sent over to do this work took the tranny off, said everything looked fine to him, reinstalled it and it still clacked. The second time he removed it, he took the damper plate to the shop and the service mgr—examining it properly—found it was cracked at the hub. That fixed the clacking but there was another serious problem that a different tech found that necessitated removing the gearbox a THIRD time.

All of this was going on when we were finishing projects to get ready for our northern half-loop. I wasn’t as focused on these as I should have been—and normally, I’d have tackled at least the fridge by myself.

I want the marina to seriously dial back the refrigerator charges and the charges for one of the three transmission removals. So far, the marina has not responded to my email or phone messages questioning these charges. I do plan to try to reach the owner again Monday, but am wondering about the consensus on my positions on these jobs. I mean where else but a boatyard are you expected to pay exorbitant prices for half-assed work?

 

[geoleo]

We kept our boat at a marina on the Chesapeake for about four years and spent probably $20K on upgrades and repairs. Generally, the work has been good and the people very nice. I only questioned one previous bill, until now . . . in fact, I have two issues:

1). We had a problem with one of the Waeco refrigerators not working on 12V DC (AC was fine). It took two techs several hours to consult manuals, diagnose a bad fan and replace it. Not fixed—and the original fan works fine. I called the manuf and their tech gave me a 5-minute procedure to detrmine whether it was the fan or compressor. The bill from the marina is $460 to replace a working fan.

2). I posted earlier this year about a clacking noise I heard in the starboard gearbox. The junior-level tech the yard sent over to do this work took the tranny off, said everything looked fine to him, reinstalled it and it still clacked. The second time he removed it, he took the damper plate to the shop and the service mgr—examining it properly—found it was cracked at the hub. That fixed the clacking but there was another serious problem that a different tech found that necessitated removing the gearbox a THIRD time.

All of this was going on when we were finishing projects to get ready for our northern half-loop. I wasn’t as focused on these as I should have been—and normally, I’d have tackled at least the fridge by myself.

I want the marina to seriously dial back the refrigerator charges and the charges for one of the three transmission removals. So far, the marina has not responded to my email or phone messages questioning these charges. I do plan to try to reach the owner again Monday, but am wondering about the consensus on my positions on these jobs. I mean where else but a boatyard are you expected to pay exorbitant prices for half-assed work?

No commete'

 

[Lepke]

Most marinas and boatyards don't have experienced mechanics. If they did dealers for Cat, Volvo, etc., would have no reason to have their mechanics.

Good luck. It seems the yards least likely to fix a problem are the least likely to discount a bogus bill without legal action. They can't afford to discount or there be no income.

 

[twistedtree]

I wouldn't hold out great hopes, but it's worth a try. To me, we pay $100/hr or whatever the rate is for someone with expertise and knowledge who will quickly and accurately identify and resolve a problem. We don't want to pay $100/hr for someone with no knowledge or skills, and who is likely less capable of figuring something out than you are. If he was more capable, he'd own the boat and not be working on someone else's. Someone with minimal skills is worth minimum wage.

 

[DavidM]

"I mean where else but a boatyard are you expected to pay exorbitant prices for half-assed work?"

Like everything: car repair, house repair and remodeling, you name it.

But I do think you have a case for one of the three tranny removals. Not sure about the fridge. Why in the world did you let a general yard mechanic tackle a fridge? Although if I were the yard mechanic I would have done some simple DC voltage tests first and I doubt they would have led me to replace the fan. So maybe you have a case there as well.

David

 

[angus99]

"I mean where else but a boatyard are you expected to pay exorbitant prices for half-assed work?"

Like everything: car repair, house repair and remodeling, you name it.

But I do think you have a case for one of the three tranny removals. Not sure about the fridge. Why in the world did you let a general yard mechanic tackle a fridge? Although if I were the yard mechanic I would have done some simple DC voltage tests first and I doubt they would have led me to replace the fan. So maybe you have a case there as well.

David

The marina refers to the refrigerator repairman as an “electrician.”

 

[angus99]

I wouldn't hold out great hopes, but it's worth a try. To me, we pay $100/hr or whatever the rate is for someone with expertise and knowledge who will quickly and accurately identify and resolve a problem. We don't want to pay $100/hr for someone with no knowledge or skills, and who is likely less capable of figuring something out than you are. If he was more capable, he'd own the boat and not be working on someone else's. Someone with minimal skills is worth minimum wage.

Exactly!

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

I wouldn't hold out great hopes, but it's worth a try. To me, we pay $100/hr or whatever the rate is for someone with expertise and knowledge who will quickly and accurately identify and resolve a problem. We don't want to pay $100/hr for someone with no knowledge or skills, and who is likely less capable of figuring something out than you are. If he was more capable, he'd own the boat and not be working on someone else's. Someone with minimal skills is worth minimum wage.

I agree. If you hire some expert and they supposedly fix it and then it is still broke, I am not paying. In your case Angus, small claims.....

 

[hollywood8118]

Angus,
You have experienced the joy of boat ownership that at some point all of has had.. or will face at some point.
This is exactly why in the early 80's when I moved up to big boats I started learning how to fix EVERYTHING on the boats we have had. Not to mention when something fails in a remote location you have the knowledge base learned from other similar projects.. Make sure you have manuals for all mechanical stuff aboard and a copy of Nigel Calders book, mine is well worn!
My mantra is I might be unhappy with how long a repair takes .. and be less than pleased with the fix.. but I never am pissed off what the labor costs .


HOLLYWOOD

 

[foggysail]

If I found myself in the OP’s situation AND I had authorized a work order for the repairs, I would have a one on one meeting with the yard manager to review the charges. If that failed, my next step would be small claims court. Big difference contracting someone to dig a well and only get a hole in the ground.

 

[angus99]

ASD & HW

I think I’m at the 75% self-sufficiency point. Electrical, plumbing, fuel system and basic mechanics, I can muddle my through well enough. Doing gel coat, A/C work or precision alignments, such as shaft-to-gearbox couplers, will give me pause. Still, anything can be learned . . . and I do like the way my “employer” promptly pays me off in cold beer.

 

[angus99]

If I found myself in the OP’s situation AND I had authorized a work order for the repairs, I would have a one on one meeting with the yard manager to review the charges. If that failed, my next step would be small claims court. Big difference contracting someone to dig a well and only get a hole in the ground.

Great analogy. I don’t mind at all paying for labor that produces results. I don’t like paying for incompetence or excessive on-the-job training.

 

[BruceK]

1). We had a problem with one of the Waeco refrigerators not working on 12V DC (AC was fine). It took two techs several hours to consult manuals, diagnose a bad fan and replace it. Not fixed—and the original fan works fine. I called the manuf and their tech gave me a 5-minute procedure to determine whether it was the fan or compressor. The bill from the marina is $460 to replace a working fan.

2). I posted earlier this year about a clacking noise I heard in the starboard gearbox. The junior-level tech the yard sent over to do this work took the tranny off, said everything looked fine to him, reinstalled it and it still clacked. The second time he removed it, he took the damper plate to the shop and the service mgr—examining it properly—found it was cracked at the hub. That fixed the clacking but there was another serious problem that a different tech found that necessitated removing the gearbox a THIRD time.

2.(the gearbox) is easy. They missed the fractured damper plate first time around, and should not charge for that removal and refit.
1.(the fridge). Less easy, but it seems someone who held out they had fridge expertise did not, charged you for them learning on the job, and still got it wrong.
By our local standards, the deal with the yard is you pay and they do the work with (at least implied) expertise, in a "good and workmanlike" manner. I don`t think you got that in return for the amount charged,there was a "failure of consideration", i.e.you didn`t get what you paid for. It`s blatant with the fridge, $460 to replace something that didn`t need replacing and did nothing to fix the problem.
From reading your posts over the years, if you can get to meet with someone with authority and a working brain at the Marina,you will be persuasive and "should"(not my favourite word) reach a resolution.

 

[angus99]

Thanks, Bruce. I’ll take that last part as a complement.

The “decider” in this case has a mercurial personality and can dig in hard when the mood hits him.

I do plan to approach as has been suggested and will post the outcome.

 

[hmason]

Thanks, Bruce. I’ll take that last part as a complement.

The “decider” in this case has a mercurial personality and can dig in hard when the mood hits him.

I do plan to approach as has been suggested and will post the outcome.

Have you already paid the bill? If not you hold the advantage---as long as your boat is not at the marina.

 

[BruceK]

Thanks, Bruce. I’ll take that last part as a complement.

The “decider” in this case has a mercurial personality and can dig in hard when the mood hits him.

I do plan to approach as has been suggested and will post the outcome.

Definitely meant as a compliment, hope it goes well.

 

[Gotwex]

If you are a Boat US member, you can contact them. Every month in their magazine are stories of them intervening to get to a resolution. Almost always, the boater is made whole.

 

[Comodave]

I had a problem with a yard in San Diego with repairs that were done poorly and some not done at all. The yard was in SD Bay and we docked the boat in Mission Bay. I picked the boat up and paid the bill and then ran the boat to our slip in Mission Bay. After arrival at our slip I started checking the work over. Took some photos of the poor work and the work not done. I went back to the yard and showed the manager the photos and also the white bilge kote paint on the carpet in the salon. The manager met with the workers and myself and fixed the bill. He said they would clean the carpet if possible or recarpet the boat if necessary, fortunately cleaning it worked fine. They then picked the boat up and ran it back to their yard, fixed the poor work and did the work they missed and ran the boat back to my slip. I guess I was lucky that it was a stand up boat yard. Good luck resolving your issues.

 

[O C Diver]

Guess I have a sort of different take.

I expect the boatyard I use to get somethings correct the first time because they have done it correctly so many times. An example would be a cutlass bearing replacement. Determining the cause and repair of a refrigerator system that they may be unfamiliar with, not the same as a cutlass bearing. If you're going to have them try to fix something they are unfamiliar with, think you have to expect to pay for their learning curve. If you're not prepared to pay on a time and materials basis for the refrigerator repair, the manager should have declined to work on it.

While I am more sympathetic to the charges on the transmission, finding a "clack" in the transmission is also going to be trial and error. As more than one thing was wrong with the transmission, it doesn't seem that it was unreasonable for it to take 2 removals. If I were to make a case for reduction of labor, it would be for the first removal and the mechanic that couldn't find either problem, that did exist.

To me, asking a person who lacks expertise on a specific make model item, to find and fix a problem whose cause isn't obvious, assumes a certain amount of trial and error (that you're going to pay for). Taking the problem to an expert of the item assumes a higher labor rate, but not a trial and error repair approach.

Ted

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. OC. I disagree with paying for anyone's learning curve. IF one contracts a person or company to provide a service, one expects a certain level of proficiency. A true professional (either person or company) will knowingly admit their limitations and then let you decide whether or not to pay for their learning curve. If I'm paying $100/hr for work I do NOT appreciate $20/hr results or paying for 3 hours on a 1 hour job.



During a previous life I referred several clients other facilities better able to meet their needs. I lost the job and the revenue but the client was much better served.

 

[angus99]

Guess I have a sort of different take.

I expect the boatyard I use to get somethings correct the first time because they have done it correctly so many times. An example would be a cutlass bearing replacement. Determining the cause and repair of a refrigerator system that they may be unfamiliar with, not the same as a cutlass bearing. If you're going to have them try to fix something they are unfamiliar with, think you have to expect to pay for their learning curve. If you're not prepared to pay on a time and materials basis for the refrigerator repair, the manager should have declined to work on it.

While I am more sympathetic to the charges on the transmission, finding a "clack" in the transmission is also going to be trial and error. As more than one thing was wrong with the transmission, it doesn't seem that it was unreasonable for it to take 2 removals. If I were to make a case for reduction of labor, it would be for the first removal and the mechanic that couldn't find either problem, that did exist.

To me, asking a person who lacks expertise on a specific make model item, to find and fix a problem whose cause isn't obvious, assumes a certain amount of trial and error (that you're going to pay for). Taking the problem to an expert of the item assumes a higher labor rate, but not a trial and error repair approach.

Ted

Hi, Ted. I could agree with you on the fridge if it had not taken me just a few minutes to call Dometic/Waeco tech support and be told how to isolate the problem with a simple procedure. In retrospect, I would have tackled this if a) we had not been scrambling to get underway and b) I was more comfortable fixing refrigeration problems. Why the tech had to read manuals, make multiple trips back to the shop for tools, call in a colleague for a consult—and still get it wrong—is what I object to. Also, I’d expect the yard to know if the person they’re sending to work on a particular system is qualified.

On the gearbox, it was actually three removals. I’m only contesting the first of them when the tech failed to take the damper plate to the shop for a proper exam.

Really not trying to nickel and dime the boat yard, but I do believe a portion of the $2400 total bill I received for these two repairs was improper. But if it turns out I have to pay full freight for this, I’ll chalk it up to an expensive learning experience.

 

[sunchaser]

Never an easy task, but selecting a yard that (1) has the right skilled guys for the task and (2) stands behind their work is, to a big part, on the owner's shoulders.

Over the years we've spent considerable yard funds in keeping the boat up. Some work was not done right and re-done on the yard's dime. Other times we bit the bullet, paid up, and learned who to avoid or how to better direct.

As Hollywood says, owner skills are a huge plus. Even if not hands on application, knowing how to help direct the techs and others in troubleshooting and actions is essential.

Now onto troubleshooting the Maretron satellite compass that has always been problematic ---

 

[foggysail]

Greetings,
Mr. OC. I disagree with paying for anyone's learning curve. IF one contracts a person or company to provide a service, one expects a certain level of proficiency. A true professional (either person or company) will knowingly admit their limitations and then let you decide whether or not to pay for their learning curve. If I'm paying $100/hr for work I do NOT appreciate $20/hr results or paying for 3 hours on a 1 hour job.



During a previous life I referred several clients other facilities better able to meet their needs. I lost the job and the revenue but the client was much better served.

^^^^

 

[O C Diver]

Hi, Ted. I could agree with you on the fridge if it had not taken me just a few minutes to call Dometic/Waeco tech support and be told how to isolate the problem with a simple procedure. In retrospect, I would have tackled this if a) we had not been scrambling to get underway and b) I was more comfortable fixing refrigeration problems. Why the tech had to read manuals, make multiple trips back to the shop for tools, call in a colleague for a consult—and still get it wrong—is what I object to. Also, I’d expect the yard to know if the person they’re sending to work on a particular system is qualified.

On the gearbox, it was actually three removals. I’m only contesting the first of them when the tech failed to take the damper plate to the shop for a proper exam.

Really not trying to nickel and dime the boat yard, but I do believe a portion of the $2400 total bill I received for these two repairs was improper. But if it turns out I have to pay full freight for this, I’ll chalk it up to an expensive learning experience.

Think we said the same think on the gearbox, pay for two removals, but not the first.

If you ask an electrician to fix your refrigerator, you pay the electrician labor rate for a handyman, at best.

Ted

 

[O C Diver]

Greetings,
Mr. OC. I disagree with paying for anyone's learning curve. IF one contracts a person or company to provide a service, one expects a certain level of proficiency. A true professional (either person or company) will knowingly admit their limitations and then let you decide whether or not to pay for their learning curve. If I'm paying $100/hr for work I do NOT appreciate $20/hr results or paying for 3 hours on a 1 hour job.



During a previous life I referred several clients other facilities better able to meet their needs. I lost the job and the revenue but the client was much better served.

While I wasn't there for the conversation, I doubt technician was billed as a refrigerator repairman. If the OP accepted that, and authorized the work, then it's on the OP as time and materials. If the technician was represented as competent in refrigerator repair, then the situation is different.

I would agree with your last statement. If I had been the manager, I would have declined to work on the refrigerator.

Ted

 

[Ex Sailor]

I feel your pain ... and good luck with that !



I had a leaking Trim Tab Hyd. Cylinder, I told my marina to just go and replace it. They sent me a separate bill for $ 100.00 just to look at it so they could order the new one. The actual replacement was extra .... LOL Either way, they got us ! that's the nature of the industry .... fb

 

[Seevee]

For the most part, these things can be solve ahead of time.

I can't imagine anyone employing the services of a boat yard to expect substandard work or unqualified work, regardless of what it is.

Even if someone is cleaning the boat, which is not particularly a highly skilled job, we expect the cleaner to be competent at cleaning, and comes with experience.

In the OPs case, clearly both jobs involved incompetence. The yard should have sent a skilled person to do the job, not a rookie that knew nothing.

I would expect to pay the price that a competent mechanic would have charged to do the job. And occasionally the competent mech has to look in the book for specs, details wiring diagrams, etc., but should know a trouble shooting procedure, follow it and solve the problem. We didn't have that in either case.

We also expect a competent mech to be able to look at things while they're doing the job and correct any other discrepancies that show up, and notify the owner. If we order an impeller changed, and in removing the supply hose we would expect the mechanic to notice if the hose is cracked or defective and not simply put a failing hose back on. Same with the transmission.

=====
So, we discuss all of the above prior, and if possible get a price for a competent repair. Or at LEAST, get a price after a reasonable inspection.

Anytime my boat is in the hands of a yard, OR a large job, perhaps over $500 I'll use MY contract. I provides for all of the above. It also provides for a bonus for early accomplishment and a penalty for a late job. Both are very generous, with the penalty cause starting with a 50% additional time allowance. If they don't agree to it, I don't do business.

The only times I've had major issues is when my contract is not used.

=====
Absolutely, the shop owes you a refund!

 

[BandB]

I want the marina to seriously dial back the refrigerator charges and the charges for one of the three transmission removals. So far, the marina has not responded to my email or phone messages questioning these charges. I do plan to try to reach the owner again Monday, but am wondering about the consensus on my positions on these jobs. I mean where else but a boatyard are you expected to pay exorbitant prices for half-assed work?

We've gotten lazy in how we deal with some issues and using ineffective means. At this point, I'd recommend making an appointment to meet with the ultimate decision maker, whether the marina manager or the owner or whomever. There is still a huge benefit to sitting down face to face, calmly and relaxed, and having a discussion. This allows you also to put it in proper context.

I'd approach like this.

Thank you for meeting with me today. I want to start by saying I've been here four years and very much enjoyed it and generally been very happy with the service. However, there are two instances which I do feel haven't been up to your normal standards. Then I'd outline the two you did above and I'd be prepared if and when they asked what you were seeking or thought would be fair with a truly fair number. Keep in mind they did spend time and did the work, just not right work. In such cases I often find 50% reduction of those charges to be appropriate. It's sharing of the loss. Is it fair? Should you get everything back? I can argue you should but seeking such isn't conducive to a fair resolution and more likely to get you nothing.

Understand as you go in, it's you who is seeking something, who is asking for an accommodation. They don't have to do anything. That's why I'd always approach it as one asking for their help rather than telling them what they must do. It's also why I suggest face to face. You can more easily come across as a reasonable man and they are far more likely face to face to want to make you happy. Easy to say "no" by email or phone. Far more difficult in a face to face discussion.

In the circumstances, I couldn't do face to face, I'd try for webcam but if that wasn't possible, go to phone and only with the one capable of making the decision. Still phone misses all the subtleties of expression. I use email after discussion to confirm my understanding of what was agreed upon.

Now, when I will use email or mail is when I am unable to make contact and then I do a thorough email covering all aspects and matters and my inability to reach the individual. I make it very complete though.

I see young people try to handle disputes by text message and inevitably each volley becomes a little uglier and soon it deteriorates into a terminal fight.

 

[SoWhat]

lets take a dead battery scenario as an example.
Start your engine, nothing happens. Call yard shop.
They replace the battery. Starts OK that afternoon.
Next morning, nothing happens. Call yard shop.
They charge battery, replace the alternator. Starts OK that afternoon.
Next morning, nothing happens. Call yard shop.
They charge battery, replace the ignition switch. Starts OK.
Next morning, Starts OK.

So you bought a battery and an alternator to fix a shorted ignition switch.
Who pays? You. PO'd? Probably. But it is simply the Tao of things.
Find another yard, buy a VOM, go for a long cruise.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

lets take a dead battery scenario as an example.
Start your engine, nothing happens. Call yard shop.
They replace the battery. Starts OK that afternoon.
Next morning, nothing happens. Call yard shop.
They charge battery, replace the alternator. Starts OK that afternoon.
Next morning, nothing happens. Call yard shop.
They charge battery, replace the ignition switch. Starts OK.
Next morning, Starts OK.

So you bought a battery and an alternator to fix a shorted ignition switch.
Who pays? You. PO'd? Probably. But it is simply the Tao of things.
Find another yard, buy a VOM, go for a long cruise.

It seems a lot of marine technicians do not understand or how to perform troubleshooting. It appears the troubleshooting is simply throwing parts at an issue until they find what fixes it. This costs you a lot of $$$ Sad the industry has stooped to this.