Dingy or tender.

[Ralsy]

When buying a 55ft trawler, is it normal for it to come without a tender / rib? We have negotiated a price for a boat thinking that the tender observed on the boat would naturally come with it only to find out it's not included in the inventory. Can't say that I'm not disappointed. If I go ahead with the purchase it'll cost me now the extra cost of buying a rib / tender / dingy.

 

[Redhook98]

Every deal is different. Wish I would have kept my dinghy off my last boat instead of letting it go. Was it advertised as part of the deal in the ad? Negotiate.

 

[O C Diver]

I would objectively assess the current value of that used dinghy before making a decision. Usually the contract specifies whether it's included and has the serial number as part of the contract as most are a separate titled boat.

Ted

 

[denverd0n]

There is no "normal." Like Redhook said, every deal is different. My completely unscientific guess -- based only on ads I've seen -- would be that it is split almost exactly 50:50 between including, and not including.

 

[menzies]

Evaluate the value/offer price of the boat considering it could cost you 15K to 20K to buy a dinghy. There just aren't that many (if any) good used RIBs available at a price that would make sense not going ahead and buying new. And you need to be careful on the condition of a used outboard.

 

[High Wire]

Did the listing exclude it? There is usually a statement for what is excluded. Tell them you want the dinghy in the pictures and see what happens.

 

[catalinajack]

When I was looking for a DeFever, I travelled to Florida from Maryland to look at a DF48. It had a nice RIB on the boat deck. The ad stated exclusions. The dinghy was not mentioned. Arrived and was told the dinghy was not to be included in the sale. I was so angry that I immediately walked away. To me this was dishonest and I just had no confidence that the dishonesty did not run to other things.

You absolutely should verify whether the dinghy shown in pictures is included BEFORE you spend time and money on travel and surveys.

Did the listing exclude it? There is usually a statement for what is excluded. Tell them you want the dinghy in the pictures and see what happens.

 

[DavidM]

If the inventory as listed on Yachtworld did not include the dinghy then I think you are being a bit churlish by now insisting that it be included. Doesn't mean you can't do it, but...... And is the new replacement for the one in the picture $20,000? It may be $5,000 but probably not for a 55' boat, probably somewhere in between.


OTOH if all contingencies in your purchase contract are satisfied, then legally you no longer have any negotiating leverage, you have to close as agreed.


The inventory is there for a reason.

David

 

[catalinajack]

David, churlish? Really? In 2014 when I was looking there was a section for exclusions. To my mind, anything pictured and not specifically excluded goes with the boat. Personal items might be a given, but a dinghy? One that is prominently pictured and exclusively, not just sort of in the picture. Come on.

If the inventory as listed on Yachtworld did not include the dinghy then I think you are being a bit churlish by now insisting that it be included. Doesn't mean you can't do it, but...... And is the new replacement for the one in the picture $20,000? It may be $5,000 but probably not for a 55' boat, probably somewhere in between.


OTOH if all contingencies in your purchase contract are satisfied, then legally you no longer have any negotiating leverage, you have to close as agreed.


The inventory is there for a reason.

David

 

[smitty477]

David, churlish? Really? In 2014 when I was looking there was a section for exclusions. To my mind, anything pictured and not specifically excluded goes with the boat. Personal items might be a given, but a dinghy? One that is prominently pictured and exclusively, not just sort of in the picture. Come on.

This is truly the key....
"You absolutely should verify whether the dinghy shown in pictures is included BEFORE you spend time and money on travel and surveys."

 

[Pete Meisinger]

I would guess that if the value of the tender is close to 10% of the boat, it should be negotiated separately.

If I was either buying or selling a boat I would view the dink as a bargaining chip, either way for buyer or seller.

pete

 

[syjos]

If the tender is not mentioned in the listing, it is not included in the sale. The buyer has to be astute enough to ask if tenders and other equipment not on the listing is included. And if a verbal affirmative get it in writing on the offer agreement.

A competent broker will insist that the seller remove anything not included in the sale or post a sign on the items not included or disclose it on the listing. After all, he does't want a cluster #@&% at closing.

When I sell a boat, the tender and everything else not included in the sale is removed from the boat.

When I purchase a boat, I don't want to buy the tender so I make the seller keep it and deduct the price of the tender. The price of tenders, especially RIB's are always inflated by owners and/or brokers so the reduction is in my favor. Used RIB's and outboards are usually not maintained well and overpriced on listings.

And I have specific requirements for a tender so "any ol' tender that comes with a boat" will not work for me.

I've only owned two boats over 34' in 35 years so my experience may not apply to everyone.

 

[Ralsy]

I agree with parts of what everyone is saying. The broker should have mentioned either in the advertisement or verbally the exclusions from the sale and then again I probably should have also asked. Can't really blame anyone except for myself. It's buyer beware, make sure you do your due diligence. Unfortunately me being a newby to buying a boat and my niavity has resulted in unnecessary stress.

 

[syjos]

What's included or not included is a good reason to hire a buyers consultant to assist in the boat purchase, especially if you are inexperienced.

A consultant will not get all excited with the boat and lose their presence of mind like a new boat buyer looking at a boat.

He will be your advocate and make sure that the right questions are asked and everything about the transaction is handled to the buyers favor, if possible. The consultant will make sure that the broker not control the situation and make sure you understand what you are buying. He may even handle the price negotiations with the broker.

A boater is involved in a few boat transactions in a lifetime. The broker handles hundreds.

Who do you think has the upper hand?

When I worked as a buyers consultant, the money I saved buyers from the purchase and/or issues prevented was more than my fee. The consultant works for a fee, not commission like the broker.

I am retired now but Steve D'Antonia offers a similar service. Steve, with his background, probably focuses more on mechanical than I did.

 

[Ralsy]

What's included or not included is a good reason to hire a buyers consultant to assist in the boat purchase, especially if you are inexperienced.

A consultant will not get all excited with the boat and lose their presence of mind like a new boat buyer looking at a boat.

He will be your advocate and make sure that the right questions are asked and everything about the transaction is handled to the buyers favor, if possible. The consultant will make sure that the broker not control the situation and make sure you understand what you are buying. He may even handle the price negotiations with the broker.

A boater is involved in a few boat transactions in a lifetime. The broker handles hundreds.

Who do you think has the upper hand?

When I worked as a buyers consultant, the money I saved buyers from the purchase and/or issues prevented was more than my fee. The consultant works for a fee, not commission like the broker.

I am retired now but Steve D'Antonia offers a similar service. Steve, with his background, probably focuses more on mechanical than I did.

No such thing in Australia.

 

[syjos]

No such thing in Australia.

Then take an experienced, knowledgeable boater with you. Buy him lunch.

The surveyor should also itemize equipment, such as a tender, on the survey. Before the transaction is completed.

I bet Steve D'A would fly to Australia to consult.

 

[Marlinmike]

Sometimes an aged dingy is not worth the hassle either, get the best dingy you can that fits the level of service you need. (Roll up, air deck, rib, steering etc). They all serve a purpose.

 

[FF]

Always contemplate the vessels boats as lifeboats too.

 

[LaBomba]

Well it hurts when you assume something, but in the business world you have to specify everything in writing, no exceptions and lets face it, you missed it by not making sure that it was clearly stated in the contract. When I sold my trawler the ad clearly stated the make model, and serial number of the dingy and motor. All you can do now is say "I thought the dingy was included" and see what happens but as others have stated if you signed the contract without it included you don't have much or any bargaining power. Kick yourself in the butt is pretty much all you can do IMO.

 

[menzies]

You can always try reducing the offer somewhat after survey if there are enough "items."

 

[Ralsy]

Yep my fault. Will pick one up. Have seen some reasonably good tenders for sale for around the $4000 - 5000 range. We have signed contracts at agreed price with a condition of seeing and liking the boat before survey. The boat is located a flight and hire car ride away from where we live. We did it this way as we didn't want to book flights and accommodation without at least securing the boat for a viewing. Have had it happen before that I'd agreed to a view a boat in another state and a couple of days before the trip I get a call from the boat owner that he's accepted another offer. She's a 55ft timber trawler. Viewing next weekend.

 

[Comodave]

In 2014 when I was looking there was a section for exclusions. To my mind, anything pictured and not specifically excluded goes with the boat. Personal items might be a given, but a dinghy? One that is prominently pictured and exclusively, not just sort of in the picture.

I agree that if it is shown in a photo in the listing and not specified as excluded then I expect that it is included with the boat. If you have not already signed a contract then if you do make an offer, specifically state that the dinghy is included. If you have already signed a contract, ask the broker if the dinghy is indeed included because the photo led you to believe it was included. If they say no, then exercise any option you have to get out of the contract. When you exit the contract they might become more willing to include it.

 

[caltexflanc]

Ultimately, you negotiate a deal separate from whatever is in the broker listing. Works both ways: the buyer may not want the dinghy or other gear listed as included and tries to bargain that out.

Not particularly relevant, but when we bought our boat the Whaler was included and when we sold it, we specifically excluded it. Buyer asked what we wanted for it and decided to buy a new one,

 

[BruceK]

Yep my fault. Will pick one up. Have seen some reasonably good tenders for sale for around the $4000 - 5000 range. We have signed contracts at agreed price with a condition of seeing and liking the boat before survey. The boat is located a flight and hire car ride away from where we live. We did it this way as we didn't want to book flights and accommodation without at least securing the boat for a viewing. Have had it happen before that I'd agreed to a view a boat in another state and a couple of days before the trip I get a call from the boat owner that he's accepted another offer. She's a 55ft timber trawler. Viewing next weekend.

If the contract you signed and exchanged included the inventory and the dinghy was not listed, I think you are right to accept it as your error.

However, if you agreed a price, and there was no statement in the advertisement or expressly from the broker that the dinghy was excluded, and then saw the inventory, I think you would have been quite entitled to renegotiate or not proceed, as the seller has imo misled you by silently representing the dinghy as included, by displaying it and saying nothing. True, it`s not a fixture, but imo if you combine display and silence it`s a representation of inclusion. But, not after you sign an agreement with an inventory that does not include it.
I hope you went through the Agreement thoroughly otherwise, I`ve seen some terrible clauses in a Qld agreement recently. Including one that said if the sale failed due to seller default the deposit was divided 50/50 between broker and buyer!
I`ve risked the cost of flights, accommodation,other expenses, etc several times without signing a contract before inspection. Unless I thought the boat was"super hot property" I would not do that.

 

[slowgoesit]

We were interested in a boat last year, for sale on YW. The ad stated everything seen on the ad was included except "personal property" Another place in the ad it specified that "personal items" were not included. We were interested in the boat, but specifically asked the broker to get with the seller and define exactly what "personal property" and "personal items" included. We stated that our viewpoint was that everything NOT included in the new list provided by the seller via the broker was understood to be included in the sale.

We got the list, it included the following: (not the full list by the way)
Dingy and engine
3 Yeti coolers mounted to the deck
All personal clothing
Pots/pans/utensils
emergency life raft mentioned in ad
two Epirbs, one mounted, on in ditch bag, both mentioned in the ad
all handheld VHF radios (3) shown in ad
Wx reporting station shown in pictures
two extra anchors mentioned in the ad, to include chain and rode
spare inverter listed under "spares"
two "spare" props
binoculars
portable loud hailer shown in pics
semi portable GPS with installed mount on the fly bridge
all the fenders in the pics that had covers
2nd installed aluminum propane tank
Manual bilge pump listed in ad
The list went on and on. Some of the items I could see as excluded, but many I would never have considered to be "personal items" or "personal property". . . . heck the entire BOAT could have been considered "personal property" since the seller owned it. We passed on the boat. Probably dodged a bullet on that one!

A friend of mine once purchased a boat. During inspection, and sea trial it showed full fuel tanks, about 1200 gallons, Ad even stated fuel tanks topped off on (recent date) under "upgrades". When he took delivery, it had been defueled, leaving less than 100 gallons in the tanks!
He complained, ended up taking sellers to small claims court, based on the stated "upgrade" of recently topped off tanks. He won, and they paid him to fuel the boat . . . with ill grace, I might add!

 

[menzies]

Funny isn't it.

We're all mature, logical boat owners.

Until it comes to selling.

Then we become...

My wife was a Century 21 Realtor in PA. When it came to listing our own house to move to Florida her Broker strongly advised her against listing her own property and had someone else in the office do it at a reduced rate.

I won't go through the gory details, but the broker was 100% correct!

Who knew my wife was Homesellerzilla!

 

[Ralsy]

If the contract you signed and exchanged included the inventory and the dinghy was not listed, I think you are right to accept it as your error.

However, if you agreed a price, and there was no statement in the advertisement or expressly from the broker that the dinghy was excluded, and then saw the inventory, I think you would have been quite entitled to renegotiate or not proceed, as the seller has imo misled you by silently representing the dinghy as included, by displaying it and saying nothing. True, it`s not a fixture, but imo if you combine display and silence it`s a representation of inclusion. But, not after you sign an agreement with an inventory that does not include it.
I hope you went through the Agreement thoroughly otherwise, I`ve seen some terrible clauses in a Qld agreement recently. Including one that said if the sale failed due to seller default the deposit was divided 50/50 between broker and buyer!
I`ve risked the cost of flights, accommodation,other expenses, etc several times without signing a contract before inspection. Unless I thought the boat was"super hot property" I would not do that.

The idea was not to at least secure the boat before viewing as it's going to cost us a couple of Grand. We did it your way before and spend a large some of money only to findout that the boat owner had accepted someone elses offer without telling us.

 

[Ralsy]

Please disregard the "not" in the first sentence

 

[BruceK]

The idea was to at least secure the boat before viewing as it's going to cost us a couple of Grand. We did it your way before and spend a large some of money only to findout that the boat owner had accepted someone elses offer without telling us.

Got it. I think we look at less popular boats. Hope it goes well. A used dinghy and motor can be hard to assess anyway.

 

[Ralsy]

Got it. I think we look at less popular boats. Hope it goes well. A used dinghy and motor can be hard to assess anyway.

Gee, my English teacher would castigate me if she viewed my grammar and spelling