Diesel outboard as 'get me home' option?

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I avoid hydraulics like the plague, because they leak. The sort of setup you describe might move the boat OK, but is would be quite heavy to install when you are broken down.

What I had planned to do was remove the power head from a British Seagull (which I have) as they separate easily and cleanly (unlike all modern outboards). Then just machine an adapter for an AC motor. The Seagull has a large 5 blade prop and a pretty high reduction in the bottom end. Run an extension cord inside and plug it in.

While I can appreciate your aversion to hydraulics. An AC motor in close proximity to water. :nonono:

Decades ago I had a 25' 4 customer charter boat. There was a 200 HP Mercury with a very flat pitched prop to push the boat at maybe 20 knots. I carried scuba divers, so weight required the flat pitch. For a get home motor, I had a long shaft 6 HP (sailboat motor) with a very flat prop. Twice I had to use the 6 HP to get home. 4 or 5 knots if I remember. RPM didn't matter as above a certain point, speed didn't increase. My guess is that your Seagull lacks the prop surface area to push the boat in anything but flat calm water.

Ted
 
Flat calm water is all I'd expect to move in.

I can push the boat down the dock at 2 knots with modest pressure on one hand. Probably less than 50 lbs. A small trolling motor will do that. Now it takes a while to accelerate 22,000 lbs, but not that much to keep it going, once going. That is the problem with pushing a boat against any sort of chop or sea: it keeps stopping and you have to accelerate it again.

My goal is self-retrieval from the more remote areas of the PNW. It is often calm, or half the time the wind is with you and half the time the current is with you. You could make progress on those alone, if you could just maneuver off of anchor and into the channel. And you need to be able to maneuver out of the channel and anchor when conditions are against you. There are no Towboat US or Sea Tow services on that coast, doesn't matter what the size of your wallet is. A good Samaritan might tow you in, but it is a lot to ask when it might be a 2 day tow.

On the east coast, which is quite crowded and facilities are close at hand everywhere, sure just call someone and have your CC handy. In some places in BC or Alaska, there is no cell coverage, no VHF coverage, even no GPS coverage sometimes, and you might not see another boat for a week. Sat phone might work. But conditions are benign and you could paddle the boat to port given enough time.
 
This thread is making me wonder if our 4hp Yamaha dinghy motor can move the mother ship at all if I mounted it to the swim step somehow. Moves the 65 lb dinghy pretty well. Not sure about 27,000 lbs. I suppose I could try to tow the mothership with the dinghy first, that might be hilarious. Better choose a glass-smooth day next spring. I have this vision of a mouse in a harness trying to budge a locomotive.

On a former boat, broken down, I used the dinghy tied on the hip as a get home. The mother ship was a 10000# sailboat, the broken down power was a 12hp diesel.
The dinghy outboard was a 15hp Merc.
It was properly matched, I got home without pause, was able to steer with the sailboat rudder, maneuver at low speed with the dinghy.
I wouldn't ever bother to try your little outboard on your big boat.
 
How big of a Diesel outboard are you thinking?
I've personally never seen one so I just googled. The only ones that come up on a quick search are as others have pointed out...rather large
there's a 175 HP Mercury. Something like that?

I wonder, if you're talking about a tiny little engine running at a good clip just to barely crawl the boat along it seems like that wouldn't be very fuel efficient...and therefore the mission is defeated right away.
If it's a larger one...such as the 175 HP I found....running at a slow efficient speed to barely move the boat, how efficient would that be?

This thread is making me wonder if our 4hp Yamaha dinghy motor can move the mother ship at all if I mounted it to the swim step somehow. Moves the 65 lb dinghy pretty well. Not sure about 27,000 lbs. I suppose I could try to tow the mothership with the dinghy first, that might be hilarious. Better choose a glass-smooth day next spring. I have this vision of a mouse in a harness trying to budge a locomotive.

Oh, the variety. 4 hp and 175 hp. Obviously it depends on the boat, but if we're talking a boat being used offshore and needing a get home motor, then 4 hp isn't going to be adequate. When I mentioned the Mercury 175 earlier, I consider that to be an appropriate size for this purpose. I'm betting the boat's primary engine is that size or greater and it's better mounted and designed for the boat. I've seen very large boats moved by outboards on the swim platform and it's been sizable outboards. To serve the purpose, it must move the boat through winds, waves, and currents which may be working against it. Does it need to be 175 hp? Perhaps not, but at least 50-75-100 range and 175 isn't completely out of line. We have pulled our boats as experiments using our RIB's to tow them, much like pilot boats do. It's one thing to do in calm inland or even coastal waters, but the task of doing it with wind and waves beating into the boat being towed is an entirely different world.

Now, I would not recommend using any type engine in this matter. I agree with others on maintenance and spares. Then if you feel the urgent need of some sort of emergency get-home method, go with proven solutions of twin engines or regularly installed get-home engines. If one's generator is large enough, then running propulsion off it is a reasonable solution. I'd just go to professionals who have done it. Also keep in mind that while fuel is one of the most common culprits, it's the easiest to address. Meanwhile, props and shaft and entire propulsion systems require another if damage badly enough. Loss of steering or gears requires a redundant system.

Ultimately, I'd suggest protecting oneself the most one reasonably can. That considers the likelihood of risk and the affordability of the protection against it. That will leave risk you aren't fully protected against. You can evaluate what you'd do in those situations. At some point a Coast Guard from the nearest country and abandoning the boat until you could get back to it somehow with another boat or abandoning it permanently may be the answer. Insurance will perhaps engage a salvage company at that point but all you can save is your lives. Hopefully, no one here will ever have to make that decision, but if one faces it, I'd say strongly, don't refuse to make it and don't wait too long. Coast Guards don't mind at all getting called and then just as they arrive you're able to get going again. They do mind people dying that they could have saved if only they'd been called more quickly.

I'm as risk adverse as anyone you'd ever meet, but I do realize I can't eliminate all risks. When I drove home from the office today, I had no control over what all the other drivers would do. In fact, I took other risks. I wasn't driving a Volvo Sedan or a large safe SUV. I was driving a sports car with the top down and enjoying such a beautiful sunshiny Fort Lauderdale afternoon. It made me feel good. Short drive, but something about sunshine and palm trees as the sun is just starting to set. I travel the route we took often, but Las Olas will never lose it's charm, nor will seeing boats lining the canals. In fact, got home, had a nice dinner and plan on swimming later. Just not sure how we're going to juggle baseball, basketball (sorry skipping football tonight), and the 500th edition of Law and Order SUV (thinking it has to wait until later tonight and DVR).

When we travel long distances offshore, I know I'm not 100% safe. No delusion. But I feel 99.9999% safe and much safer than many other things I do. I've never done truly dangerous things like mountain climbing or things others here might have done, but imagine the feel as the most dangerous things I have done have been to help others and they're the moments in life I treasure most.
 
Sorry, I didn't see where you wanted a get home for a Bermuda trip. I suppose you could rig an electric motor with cogged belt drive to the main shaft. 240 volt 3 hp 1800 rpm with appropriate pulleys could be driven by the generator. It won't help if the prop falls off. Other than that you are left with wing engine, sails, twins, or commercial tugs.
 
My sails will get me downwind at a couple of knots with a decent wind. Hopefully, downwind is toward home/tow. Motorsailing here:
 

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Sorry, I didn't see where you wanted a get home for a Bermuda trip. I suppose you could rig an electric motor with cogged belt drive to the main shaft. 240 volt 3 hp 1800 rpm with appropriate pulleys could be driven by the generator. It won't help if the prop falls off. Other than that you are left with wing engine, sails, twins, or commercial tugs.
Many of the Willard 40s were equipped with a 5hp electric motor belt driven to the drive shaft. Motor was a beast - well over 100 lbs. Power was from a 3-phase 20kw generator. It would power the boat at 3-4 kts. Most owners abandoned the system when it came to replace the generator as 3-phase generators are scarce and expensive. Plus they are oversized.

A 1500 watt trolling motor sounds pretty lame in comparison. I don't know much about these things, but perusing the Grainger catalog shows that high torque 5 hp electric industrial motors are indeed large, heavy, and expensive.

Personally, the most economical and usable adf-on get-home system I've seen is using a hydraulic motor driven belt driven to the shaft driven by a PTO off the generator. Wesmar used to sell a putpose-made unit with a neurtal-forward gear. I do not sure the concern about hydraulics. On the contrary, I like them. Very efficient transfer of power. Less to go wrong than an electric motor.

Peter
 
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Hydraulics give easy transmission of power, but certainly not efficient. Electric gen/motor pair are more efficient. They might leak electricity but at least you don't have to clean it up.

The idea that you need 175 hp as an auxiliary propulsion on a small Nordhavn, that has only an 80 hp main propulsion engine can't be right. Nordhavn didn't think so either, most of the wing engines installed in them (and Selene, KK, etc.) are 30 - 40 hp. That is probably the minimum you need to move in a moderate seaway. Anything that powers the main screw assumes it is still there and functional. And yeah, even modest sized AC induction motors are large and heavy.
 
Try towing it with the dink first, should be an easy way to determine how it will work. We towed the Mainship 34 with an 11ft Whaler and an 18Hp O/B once, made good way in calm conditions and got us home

:socool:

At second look, this could be easier than I thought. I already have an e-Propulsion 1KW outboard on the dinghy.
 
At second look, this could be easier than I thought. I already have an e-Propulsion 1KW outboard on the dinghy. The issue with using it was battery life of only 1 hour and recharge time of 6. Turns out I can get an external battery cable for it, and a 48V power supply capable of running it forever for around $300. Mounting it on the swim platform will be easy, it is waterproof (submersible) so not too many worries there. Only question is will it actually push the boat? That'll be something I'll have to try at launch time in the Spring.

I think 1kW may be pushing it :)rofl:) - but I'd love to hear the results if you try it as it sounds the easiest option by far. I think around 3kW may be needed, which is still in the range of ePropulsion based solution at 48v. Let us know how it goes!
 
IMO, if you absolutely need a get home system, buy a boat with twins. If buying the boat new or repowering, it should be easy enough to select 2 engines running at 40% load (for that RPM) to cruise and 50 to 60% load with 1 engine at a speed reduction of 1 to 3 knots.

Ted
 
Turns out I can get an external battery cable for it, and a 48V power supply capable of running it forever for around $300.


Where that, please? Link?

I've been examining the trade-offs between gas and 48V Elco (for example) electric outboards, 15-20 hp or so, for a console dinghy...

And so far I've only found very heavy traditional-battery solutions or very expensive LiFePO4 solutions...

-Chris
 
This thread is making me wonder if our 4hp Yamaha dinghy motor can move the mother ship at all if I mounted it to the swim step somehow. Moves the 65 lb dinghy pretty well. Not sure about 27,000 lbs. I suppose I could try to tow the mothership with the dinghy first, that might be hilarious. Better choose a glass-smooth day next spring. I have this vision of a mouse in a harness trying to budge a locomotive.

It will move it, but not like you think. I've used our 4hp on our dinghy to push the boat around.

Example: Guy anchored behind us wants to haul anchor and we've swung around so we're right on top of or very close to the side of his anchor.

Push our boat out of the way of a dragging boat.

Push a boat forward when they've dragged onto another boat.

We do it many times throughout a summer. It moves the boat, but I would not consider a means to convey/transport the boat.
 
I think 1kW may be pushing it :)rofl:) - but I'd love to hear the results if you try it as it sounds the easiest option by far. I think around 3kW may be needed, which is still in the range of ePropulsion based solution at 48v. Let us know how it goes!

Obivously I will try that first. Or maybe just build a quick temporary mount - for this size motor even plywood works fine. Been meaning to try pushing or pulling with the dinghy, just haven't gotten to it yet. Several hp calculation methods suggest that 1 - 2 hp is enough to get 2 knots. The Spirit outboard is about 1.3 Hp.

Where that, please? Link?

I've been examining the trade-offs between gas and 48V Elco (for example) electric outboards, 15-20 hp or so, for a console dinghy...

And so far I've only found very heavy traditional-battery solutions or very expensive LiFePO4 solutions...

-Chris
E-Propulsion makes the Spirit (1KW) which as a mountable battery, and also the Navy (in 3KW and 6KW) which have external or remote batteries. All three are 48V and can apparently run from a 48V source. I recently discovered that the Spirit which I use on my dinghy has available a remote battery cord which allows running from any source. On the same site you will find the other e-Propulsion options.
 

E-Propulsion makes the Spirit (1KW) which as a mountable battery, and also the Navy (in 3KW and 6KW) which have external or remote batteries. All three are 48V and can apparently run from a 48V source. I recently discovered that the Spirit which I use on my dinghy has available a remote battery cord which allows running from any source. On the same site you will find the other e-Propulsion options.


Thanks, guys, I'll check that out...

-Chris
 
Elco also makes varying sizes of electric outboards that run off an external power source. Some are bigger than 6kw, so for those with large enough generators, you'd have the option of something more powerful.
 
Folks, we are looking for a way to get close enough to shore so the towing bill will not be too large.
Think about going through HaulOver cut on a rough day...... You will need a towing service to take you on their hip to get you through the cut.
 
There is a yanmar d36 for sale on eBay right now for 7k. Honestly that seems like a better option to me than a lot of other get home engine ideas especially on a smaller boat say sub 50ft. Would be easy enough to make a bracket on swim platform and run a remote fuel line coming off of main tank. I’d honestly be suprised if you couldn’t get a 45 footer up to say 4-5kts with a yanmar d36 or d40 Depending on dingy and davit setup could also serve as double duty as skiff main propulsion as well.
 
I think we need to step back and do a little math.

If this hypothetical long distance tow is going to cost $50,000 and you will need it once every 20 years, that breaks down to $2.5k/year.

If the "get home engine option" costs $25,000 to install and you keep your boat 10 years that is $2.5k/year.

At these numbers its a break even but then you need to add the opportunity cost of the invested funds, loss of boating time for the retrofit, and reduced resale value of the boat.

There may be more cost effective options like taking a ton of diesel mechanic classes and increasing your spare parts and tools collection, or talking to a specialty insurer about a unique "what-if" policy rider.
 
A Yanmar diesel outboard is pushing 300 lbs. That's going to be a substantial bracket on a swim platform and likely float your skiff a bit down by the stern. Then transferring it from the skiff to the bracket, at sea, while disabled - well, not a job I'd want.

For $25K you can install a brand new 40 hp saildrive like you'd have in a Selene or Nordhavn and get change back. And that's what you'd want for far offshore work, where $25K for a tow won't get you back from very far. There are two different missions talked about here, not sure what the OP had in mind, what I have in mind is far less ambitious than that and might cost $500 - $5000, no where near $25K.

If someone made a small lightweight diesel outboard, I might use that on the dinghy and also as the get home. No one does.

There have been some Ranger tugs built with a factory installed 25 hp outboard in a well complete with all systems. I saw one of these this summer. It was billed as both a get home and a trolling option.
 
I think we need to step back and do a little math.

If this hypothetical long distance tow is going to cost $50,000 and you will need it once every 20 years, that breaks down to $2.5k/year.

If the "get home engine option" costs $25,000 to install and you keep your boat 10 years that is $2.5k/year.

At these numbers its a break even but then you need to add the opportunity cost of the invested funds, loss of boating time for the retrofit, and reduced resale value of the boat.

There may be more cost effective options like taking a ton of diesel mechanic classes and increasing your spare parts and tools collection, or talking to a specialty insurer about a unique "what-if" policy rider.

In theory you could fly or ship help and parts to the boat as well. So much depends on sea conditions and other factors. Even deciding to get help for those aboard to return to shore and leave the boat to be salvaged is an option. I don't like these options but I don't like many suggested in this thread either.
 
IMO, the difficult part it getting the boat moving, after that, only a small outboard will keep it moving.
The idea is to get the boat within towing distance to a "safe harbor"
 
IMO, the difficult part it getting the boat moving, after that, only a small outboard will keep it moving.
The idea is to get the boat within towing distance to a "safe harbor"

If you're 500 nm off shore in 20 knot winds and 8' seas at 8 seconds with wind and currents against you, a small outboard has about equal chances to you paddling.
 
If you're 500 nm off shore in 20 knot winds and 8' seas at 8 seconds with wind and currents against you, a small outboard has about equal chances to you paddling.

If I am 500 miles off shore I am in the wrong CE rated boat.
The percentage of folks like us being off shore 500nm is less than 1%, I am guessing
 
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I remember when we first bought our boat and took delivery in Narragansett Bay, I really wanted to go to Nantucket but it was 27 miles offshore and I was just way too cautious to risk it on a boat that was untested and unfamiliar to us. 500 miles offshore? Not in our boat.
 
Problem is, there are no small diesel outboards and few large ones (which weigh far too much). My thinking instead was to use an electric outboard, powered by 110 or 220. I have a diesel genset on board and effectively unlimited fuel for it. It doesn't take much power to push a small trawler at 2 knots, in calm conditions. 2 knots is 50 miles closer to civilization each day. Probably not useful in a mid ocean breakdown, but could be quite useful in SE Alaska or upper BC, water is sheltered but remote, 100 miles could put you back in port and save many thousands of dollars in tow fees (there are essentially no tow services there).

I like this idea a lot and now sounds better than the diesel outboard.
 
Where that, please? Link?

I've been examining the trade-offs between gas and 48V Elco (for example) electric outboards, 15-20 hp or so, for a console dinghy...

And so far I've only found very heavy traditional-battery solutions or very expensive LiFePO4 solutions...

Elco also makes varying sizes of electric outboards that run off an external power source. Some are bigger than 6kw, so for those with large enough generators, you'd have the option of something more powerful.


Yep, the Elco 20 is approximately what I've had in mind... comparing to a Suzuki/Yamaha/Honda/whater 20-hp gas outboard... mounted on a 12' (or so) console dinghy.

I haven't done complete analysis but at quick glance it's looking like electric motor cost is about the same as for a gas outboard, electric motor weight is lower, then the battery(ies) makes the package heavier and/or more expensive.

Apologies to OP for thread drift...

-Chris
 
A crazy thought ??

While having twin engines likely provides the best insurance, you can look at a wing engine (assuming new build) similar to many Nordhavn's which IMO is a good trade off. While the chances are low you will ever need to use it you will be glade the one time you really need it. We experienced that one time during commissioning of our first Nordy and were out for an afternoon practicing docking in the harbor. After an hour or I so notice the throttle response felt strange and we headed back to the slip. I had Jeff Merrill (our sales rep) with us and as we headed down the main channel in traffic we lost throttle control control as we drifted towards docked boats. I handed the steering over to Jeff as I radioed Vessel Assist and ran to the bow to prepare to fend off the large boat we were drifting towards. Jeff had the mind set to startup the Wing Engine and push full throttle just in time to clear us from hitting the other boats. Vessel assist caught up to us and assisted in getting into our slip during strong cross winds. Wow, owning a trawler is not going to be all fun and games as I originally thought.

Over the next few years and two boats both with wing engines I never had to use the Yanmars again. I would run them at times just to exercise them but missed out on the opportunity to use them during docking to help with maneuvering as I learned afterwards others have done. Did I feel a sense of security knowing we had this back-up engine - yes! Would it really save us in bad weather miles off shore - I'm not to sure. We only got about 3 knots in calm weather but we were moving. Folding prop was small.

Fast forward to the new boat (15' sailboat) and I'm going backwards with the same (OK, similar) concern - what is my backup power? Real concern I'm dealing with is maneuvering in tight quarters since I cannot have the sail up. While most sailors option for an outboard mounted on the transom I could not accept ruining the beautiful lines of the boat by hanging an OB off the transom so we found an alternative removable electric OB motor installation we will have installed. I will post more about this under my thread about this new boat.

This brings me to an option the single engine trawler not discussed so far and "what about adding a mast and sail as a source of auxiliary power"? Diesel Ducks use this and I recall a story about one boat crossing the pacific and lost its engine for some time. They raised the sail which pushed the boat about 2 knots. Granted the wind would need to be in your favor and many other requirements would need to come together but heck the wind is free, usually available and the sail can be stowed away when not in use. The mast may even add a nice look to the right boat. Depending on the size of the sail (possibly have two sizes) it can be used a source of stabilization.

Just a crazy thought!

JT
 
On a 15' sailboat you already have backup power - the sails - and it can be paddled quite effectively. Not against the wind, but if you have wind you will be sailing. Just learn to dock under sail.

A possible alternative for emergency trawler power mid ocean might be a kite sail. This isn't necessarily cheap and requires some setup, would only take you downwind or best case across the wind. At least you wouldn't be helpless, and no mast is required.

On my sailboat I never worried about emergency get home power, it's a sailboat after all. The trawler though is pretty much helpless if the engine shuts down. It will only blow sideways downwind and if there is any seaway at all the motion is atrocious.

In a new build, I'd look at a combination wing engine/genset. I know this ground has been trodden, but not very well in my opinion. The advantage is you know the engine works, it gets maintained properly, and isn't useless 99.999% of the time.
 

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