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Old 05-31-2018, 06:45 AM   #21
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Oil extraction rate is sensitive to price. Higher the price, more effort put into pulling the stuff out of the ground. But there is a time lag. High price, off we go to drill, but that stuff does not make it to market for six months. Then all that oil hits the market and prices collapse.

Result is prices cycling up and down. Not in a six month period, more like every couple of years.

And guess what? Prices now going up and I am leaving on a trip in ten days!! My timing is EXQUISITE.

Dave, as our resident Chem E- In order to get the sulfur out of residual, will that include distilling it? What kind of cost are they looking at?

Another thing I wondered is why ships don't go on some sort of shore power when in port. Even if needing to deal with the 50/60Hz thing. I go by our local port and most ships there are blowing smoke out of the stacks. Their gennies sure are not burning clean!! If this dockside emission is such a big deal, set up shore power, and leave their fuel alone.
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Old 05-31-2018, 07:15 AM   #22
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Oil extraction rate is sensitive to price. Higher the price, more effort put into pulling the stuff out of the ground. But there is a time lag. High price, off we go to drill, but that stuff does not make it to market for six months. Then all that oil hits the market and prices collapse.

Result is prices cycling up and down. Not in a six month period, more like every couple of years.

And guess what? Prices now going up and I am leaving on a trip in ten days!! My timing is EXQUISITE.

Dave, as our resident Chem E- In order to get the sulfur out of residual, will that include distilling it? What kind of cost are they looking at?

Another thing I wondered is why ships don't go on some sort of shore power when in port. Even if needing to deal with the 50/60Hz thing. I go by our local port and most ships there are blowing smoke out of the stacks. Their gennies sure are not burning clean!! If this dockside emission is such a big deal, set up shore power, and leave their fuel alone.
What do cruise ship do?

Guessing too much power on ship is needed,
stringing cables are a shock hazard,
no transfer switch tech on board to handle high power need.
No high power dockside power facilities in ports of call,
they all are different types of power in different countries.
too many different voltages on the ship systems to accommodate.
ships not usually in port long enough to justify it.
managers don't want to spend the money
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Old 05-31-2018, 07:57 AM   #23
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Dave, as our resident Chem E- In order to get the sulfur out of residual, will that include distilling it? What kind of cost are they looking at?

Another thing I wondered is why ships don't go on some sort of shore power when in port. Even if needing to deal with the 50/60Hz thing. I go by our local port and most ships there are blowing smoke out of the stacks. Their gennies sure are not burning clean!! If this dockside emission is such a big deal, set up shore power, and leave their fuel alone.
No distillation, it is just too heavy to boil. It would be like trying to boil molasses in a kitchen pan- it would turn to carbon and coke the bottom of the pan first.

The process of desulfurizing residual oil is very expensive. It takes large high pressure reactors, compressors, a hydrogen generator, lots of distillation steps after it is desulfurized since much of it is cracked to smaller, kerosene and diesel sized molecules. In this case desulfurizing residual fuel actually makes more diesel available.

I suspect the average refinery making residual oil will spend hundreds of million dollars installing this processing equipment. But it won't add much to the price, maybe 10%.

Ships are required to switch to low sulfur fuel for their boilers as they approach a US port. They are also required to burn low sulfur diesel in their generators while in port.

Ten years ago when I was working at BP's LA refinery we installed an electrical shore power system to power BP's tankers while in port- a substation, electrical distribution system, dockside structure to accommodate reels of 6" diameter cable, cranes to handle the cable. All of the work had to be done with TWIC certified labor.

It is nothing like plugging in a 30A shore power cable to your dockside pedestal. Everything is huge. I couldn't believe the expense- about $20 million to accommodate two tankers and more to modify the ships. Running low sulfur diesel in their generators was much cheaper.


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Old 05-31-2018, 08:15 AM   #24
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Have been out of the ship world for 30 years, so someone can correct me if the following is incorrect ; A) There are very few, if any ships entering US ports using steam boilers so bunker oil is not a factor. B) I read an article the Big so cal ports were looking to provide electrical shore power infrastructure for all ships while docked awhile back but loss track of it.
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Old 05-31-2018, 08:49 AM   #25
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Fletcher:


You may be right about little or no steam boilers. But ships today burn residual fuel oil in their big "diesel" engines or in some cases in their "gas" turbines. I believe it is a grade or two better than bunker C but it is still bottom of the barrel residual oil.


The BP experiment I discussed above was in response to that desire to supply shore power to all ships in port as you note but I bet it was scrapped due to the high cost.


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Old 05-31-2018, 08:58 AM   #26
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Good point. My sailing experience was only on steam ships so I forgot about that.
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Old 05-31-2018, 09:00 AM   #27
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Part of the problem with supplying ships with shore power is that they use exhaust heat from the gennies and main to make process steam. The steam is used for cargo heat (tankers) and keeping heavy fuel hot. I think most also have an aux oil fired boiler, but if elec power comes from shore, then what they need to fire the aux boiler? Rather pointless if that is the case. Complicated once you get into the nitty-gritty.

I know ships are supposed to go to distillate in port, but locally I see a good bit of stack smoke from the gennies. Can't imagine the engines are so clapped out that they smoke that much on distillate, I bet they say "F-it" and just keep running residual. At least in our port!! Probably not in Cali...

And yep, not many steam powered ships left. One of the last was El Faro. All modern ships are running big slow two stroke diesels which can run on heavy residual fuel same as an old boiler. More filtration needed, of course.
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Old 05-31-2018, 02:55 PM   #28
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I was not on ships very long, but two of the last steam tankers I sailed on in the late 80's where towed to Asia to be cut up. Spent several weeks in a ship yard with guys running around with a torch in their hand. Hot Work Permit gained a whole new meaning, especially when you sleep there.

I didn't realize El Faro was steam.

It is amazing the ship and shoreside (land based) gas turbines can use these fuels. Some smart people out there doing amazing things with the heavier fuels.
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Old 05-31-2018, 05:33 PM   #29
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If diesel fuel for ships continues to increase it will spur on the movement to develop LNG plants to use for ship fuel.
TOTE (in your neighorhood) is already converting their two RO-ROs to LNG.
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Old 05-31-2018, 06:22 PM   #30
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Owning a boat is expensive. Everything goes up in price often. Fuel is no exception. Luxury items such as a boat will always need maintenance, fuel, etc. I’m a little surprised that any boat owner would be surprised at rising costs for anything to do with a boat. Like everything else, it needs to be budgeted in.
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