Did I lengthen my boat??

[OldDan1943]

Been there, done that and had to pay for the tee shirt....and I did forget the property taxes.

In my case, I own 2 slips. One, 75ft and one 55ft.
I own a 34/36ft boat. I rattled around in the 75ft slip (left over from my Nordhave46)

I will be honest, 75ft slips are not plentiful in my area. This entire marina has 100 slips.

 

[healhustler]

Al: I hope you can come to clarity on this. I have a KK 36 (OAL 36’3”) but I added a “boarding step” of 2’9”, making it 39’ OAL. Since prices of KK 39’s are typically twice or more of those of the 36’s, I’m thinking the only honest and forthright thing to do is to advertise it as a 39.

 

[OldDan1943]

Al: I hope you can come to clarity on this. I have a KK 36 (OAL 36’3”) but I added a “boarding step” of 2’9”, making it 39’ OAL. Since prices of KK 39’s are typically twice or more of those of the 36’s, I’m thinking the only honest and forthright thing to do is to advertise it as a 39.

My example...... My AT documented as a 34.5ft. The current ATs' from the same hull mold, are sold as a 36.5ft because the builders can get more money. There is some discussion if the USCG changed the Regs so as to count the swim platform in the OAL, for documentations.

My suggestion is, if a harbor master asks for your boat's length, give him the manufacture's specified length or invite him to bring his tape measure.

 

[Al]

My understanding is that if the stern platform can be removed, it is not considered part of the length for official reasons. Many vessels have in the recent past had the their hulls extended to the back of the swim platform to give a longer hull length ( and presumably slightly better performance) and also as has been mentioned, the ability to say your vessel is worth more on the market because it is two feet longer.
Where it apparently makes a real difference is when the vessel is hovering around the 65' range; the rules change if the vessel is longer than 65'. Having said that, I don't know what the specific rule changes are.

Conrad, When I inquired of a Prince Rupert pleasure boat owner as to the reason for the (to me) huge extended step, often observed as well on commercial Canadian fishing boats, I was told it was a tax issue, some rule that water line length served as the length factor.
It was from the Canadian models that encouraged me to extend the step, thought was given to designing a buoyancy tank under the step. While not conforming to the hull lines waterline to the keel, it was visualized as a tapered tank that would hopefully deflect following sea effect reducing wallering about.
Still tinkering mentally with that concept. Happy at the moment to have the extra room to maneuver about while addressing the launching of the RIB and positioning of the swing out mount for the 'Git-A-Home' OB.

As there is no tax affecting boat ownership in Alaska Most local taxes are limited to a max dollar amount, I know of no local in Alaska that charges that exceed such a local established tax. Ketchikan has a max of $2000.00 of a sales amount subject to tax (5% in town, 2.5 out of town. None outside of the combined city/borough line.

Harbor fees based on length of slip. Rule as to length is max of the slip plus 10% IE:-30 foot slip allows for 33 feet max.

 

[Donsan]

Been there, done that and had to pay for the tee shirt....and I did forget the property taxes.

In our particular case, owning the slip was not a satisfying experience. The slip was on the Great Lakes and the boating season was short. All boats had to be removed by a certain date in the fall and could not return to the marina before a certain date in the spring.

In all fairness, Old Dan’s slip might be a good deal if they permit live aboards, if parking is adequate, if they have laundry facilities and if the price is reasonable. Suspect in the Miami area, slips carry a big price tag. There are a lot of other factors that need to be considered.

 

[OldDan1943]

A 75 foot slip in this marian sells for about $230K.
To rent a 75ft slip is, according to the marina office, over $4K a month. I just turned down $1K per day, for 8 days. He says he pays $50/day in his current marina and I suggested he keep his boat there. Now he has 2 boats and one slip. SMIRK
Short term 'stays' are always more than long term. SHRUG. I think because, getting the slip rented out is far easier that getting someone out a slip when they don't want to leave.
I do remember one incident where the renter stopped paying until they found, his boat had been chained to the dock and legal proceedings had been started against his boat. The owner saw the chain, went to the marina office paid in cash and left the marina. This boat was over 100ft long and the owner did not think 'his **** did not stink'
That chain convinced him the marina meant business.

 

[HeadMistress]

I think even the CG cracked down on this. Now a permanently attached swim platform counts as overall length. That is supposed to be why an AT34 is now an AT365. Manufacturers don't necessarily object, as they can now advertise a longer boat without changing a thing.

USCG didn't "crack down"...the legal LOA has always been--and still is--the length of the HULL (not the deck) over the centerline from the furthest point on the bow, excluding any bumpkins (I have no idea what a bumpkin is) or pulpits to aftmost point on the stern excluding anything that isn't integral to hull, including swim platforms, davits, motor mounts etc. That excludes bolted on swim platforms etc.

In the late '80s boat builders came up with a way to make boats longer--and therefore sell 'em for more--without increasing the length from the transom to the bow: incorporate swim platforms into the hull design--the then new "Eurostyle" hulls. Making 'em integral to the hull meant they had to be included in the LOA.

I remember a raft up in which my 1980 Trojan with bolted on swim platform was rafted to a brand new 36' Carver with integral swim platform. Our transoms were aligned within a couple of inches. When I took a trash bag forward to stash it on the bow till we'd make ready to leave the next day, I noticed his bow was only about 4" ahead of mine....his 36' boat was actually just a 32' with a 4' long "back porch!"


However, none of the above matters a bit to harbormasters...they're only concerned with how many feet of dock space your boat will need. So they can--and do--include bow pulpits, davits, bolted-on swim platforms and anything else that occupies space fore and aft.

--Peggie

 

[Northern Spy]

USCG didn't "crack down"...the legal LOA has always been--and still is--the length of the HULL (not the deck) over the centerline from the furthest point on the bow, excluding any bumpkins (I have no idea what a bumpkin is) or pulpits to aftmost point on the stern excluding anything that isn't integral to hull, including swim platforms, davits, motor mounts etc. That excludes bolted on swim platforms etc.

In the late '80s boat builders came up with a way to make boats longer--and therefore sell 'em for more--without increasing the length from the transom to the bow: incorporate swim platforms into the hull design--the then new "Eurostyle" hulls. Making 'em integral to the hull meant they had to be included in the LOA.

I remember a raft up in which my 1980 Trojan with bolted on swim platform was rafted to a brand new 36' Carver with integral swim platform. Our transoms were aligned within a couple of inches. When I took a trash bag forward to stash it on the bow till we'd make ready to leave the next day, I noticed his bow was only about 4" ahead of mine....his 36' boat was actually just a 32' with a 4' long "back porch!"


However, none of the above matters a bit to harbormasters...they're only concerned with how many feet of dock space your boat will need. So they can--and do--include bow pulpits, davits, bolted-on swim platforms and anything else that occupies space fore and aft.

--Peggie

I thought we’ve been through this before:

ABYC S-8: "Boat Measurement and Weight" changed in 2010 to include molded in components.

8.4.10 Length Overall (LOA) - the straight line measurement from the foremost part of the boat to the aftermost part of the boat, measured parallel to the centerline and to the design waterline. Integrally formed, molded, or welded components and appendages, such as bow pulpits, swim platforms, attachment structures for the propulsion systems, and structural rub rails installed by the builder are included in the length. Attached bowsprits, pulpits, boomkins (bumpkins), rudders, sails, outboard brackets, handles, railings, and other similar attached extensions are not included in the measurement.

8.4.11 Length, Maximum - LOA plus attached non-integral bowsprits, pulpits, boomkins (bumpkins), rudders, sails, outboard brackets, handles, railings, and other similar attached extensions. Propulsion equipment and all moveable parts shall be measured in their normal operating position(s).

 

[Northern Spy]

Never heard a boomkin called a bumpkin either.

 

[OldDan1943]

Would you cheat the guy at the fuel dock or at the grocery store of if you found $200 on the walk way, would you pocket it of turn it in to the dock master?
My AT is documented as a 34.5 foot boat. Add in another 4 ft to include the bolt on swim platform and the foot or two for the part of the dingy that hangs beyond the swim platform. I encourage the dock master to come out and measure it or we can agree on a LOA.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
My country resents that!

 

[OldDan1943]

Never heard a boomkin called a bumpkin either.

How about a "bump in"???

 

[OldDan1943]

Greetings,
My country resents that!
[/IMG]

Your country resents so many things, I am beginning to believe your country has no sense of humor. LOL

 

[HeadMistress]

ABYC S-8: "Boat Measurement and Weight" changed in 2010 to include molded in components.

I'm fairly certain it changed at least 10 years earlier because builders began including integral swim platforms in their published LOAs (which have to meet th legal definition) around 1990. The raftup I described took place in the mid-90s.

And fwiw, most integral bow pulpits are in the deck mold, not the hull...which means they can't be included in the LOA. I'm not sure whether those included in the hull mold can be because the definitions assumed they'd all be "add ons" same as bolted on swim platforms were.

I questioned my choice of the word "bumpkin" as soon as I posted it...but I was sure that if it weren't the right word there were sure to be at least people competing to be the first to correct me.


--Peggie

 

[ssobol]

Pretty simple IMO. For example, if you have a 40' slip can your "40 foot" boat fit in it? Or if the harbor master says he has 50' of dock space, will your "50 foot" boat fit there?

If you need 52 1/2 feet to dock your boat, you better say so.

 

[Northern Spy]

ABYC S-8: "Boat Measurement and Weight" changed in 2010 to include molded in components.

I'm fairly certain it changed at least 10 years earlier because builders began including integral swim platforms in their published LOAs (which have to meet th legal definition) around 1990. The raftup I described took place in the mid-90s.

And fwiw, most integral bow pulpits are in the deck mold, not the hull...which means they can't be included in the LOA. I'm not sure whether those included in the hull mold can be because the definitions assumed they'd all be "add ons" same as bolted on swim platforms were.

I questioned my choice of the word "bumpkin" as soon as I posted it...but I was sure that if it weren't the right word there were sure to be at least people competing to be the first to correct me.


--Peggie

Doesn't delineate hull from deck. Just says molded.

I'm not correcting your bumpkin. The parenthetical bumpkin comes from the standard itself. I've just never heard of it.

And you may be correct. The change could have been in 2003. I know they were trying to get ISO and ABYC definition aligned. Which they did for LOA (ABYC) and LH (ISO), but not for maximum length, as ISO excludes outboard engines, and ABYC includes them in the operating position.

 

[OldDan1943]

Here's a thought. Take your USCG documentation paper with you.
If course, in the interest of maintain civility you could just be up front and say, "I don't know for sure but, according to the documentation sheet, it is X feet long. If you want to measure it, bring your tape and we can both learn."

 

[Bacchus]

To put this in context...
If you had a 35 ft motorhome and it just fit in the storage bay you rented then decided to add on a motorcycle lift on the stern and it no longer fit in the storage bay... or you couldnt close the door w it sticking out...
Would it be fair for the storage place to ask for more $ for a longer bay?

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

I thought we’ve been through this before:

ABYC S-8: "Boat Measurement and Weight" changed in 2010 to include molded in components.

8.4.10 Length Overall (LOA) - the straight line measurement from the foremost part of the boat to the aftermost part of the boat, measured parallel to the centerline and to the design waterline. Integrally formed, molded, or welded components and appendages, such as bow pulpits, swim platforms, attachment structures for the propulsion systems, and structural rub rails installed by the builder are included in the length. Attached bowsprits, pulpits, boomkins (bumpkins), rudders, sails, outboard brackets, handles, railings, and other similar attached extensions are not included in the measurement.

8.4.11 Length, Maximum - LOA plus attached non-integral bowsprits, pulpits, boomkins (bumpkins), rudders, sails, outboard brackets, handles, railings, and other similar attached extensions. Propulsion equipment and all moveable parts shall be measured in their normal operating position(s).

ABYC S-8: "Boat Measurement and Weight" changed in 2010 to include molded in components.

I'm fairly certain it changed at least 10 years earlier because builders began including integral swim platforms in their published LOAs (which have to meet th legal definition) around 1990. The raftup I described took place in the mid-90s.

And fwiw, most integral bow pulpits are in the deck mold, not the hull...which means they can't be included in the LOA. I'm not sure whether those included in the hull mold can be because the definitions assumed they'd all be "add ons" same as bolted on swim platforms were.

I questioned my choice of the word "bumpkin" as soon as I posted it...but I was sure that if it weren't the right word there were sure to be at least people competing to be the first to correct me.


--Peggie

Doesn't delineate hull from deck. Just says molded.

I'm not correcting your bumpkin. The parenthetical bumpkin comes from the standard itself. I've just never heard of it.

And you may be correct. The change could have been in 2003. I know they were trying to get ISO and ABYC definition aligned. Which they did for LOA (ABYC) and LH (ISO), but not for maximum length, as ISO excludes outboard engines, and ABYC includes them in the operating position.

ABYC rules are irrelevant. They "recommend" ABYC does not set legal policy or law.

 

[Northern Spy]

ABYC rules are irrelevant. They "recommend" ABYC does not set legal policy or law.

Oh I know that. I work with actual code (standards adopted as law) all day. Read some of my old posts about the ABYC. You could even say, I'm not a fan.

But the definition of LOA is pretty standard and has been for quite some time. The NMMA, USCG, and Transport Canada have adopted the ABYC definition. CE has adopted ISO's definition.

So to answer Al's question.

No, you did not change your LOA. Yes, you did change you maximum length. (By modern definition).

 

[Al]

Northern Spy: "No, you did not change your LOA. Yes, you did change you maximum length. (By modern definition)."

Spy, I accept your annalist. It speaks to reason. The sea quality of the boat has not changed due to the added length, nor that of the anchor perch on the bow.
What has changed is the LOA, important to the harbor master folks and apparently some taxing agencies.
Having the extra working space gives the appearance of "Bigger" with the addition of providing a safer work area.
Lots of good stuff on this thread as a result.
Regards,
Al

 

[Alisske]

I say you did not. (But for practical reasons)

I have a groverbuilt 26 downeast and I added a bow pulpit and swim platform. (Probably making it around 29-30 foot).

I would look like a fool saying I have a 30 foot groverbuilt. (They don’t exist)

Additionally, I’m a cheap skate, so I actually made my swim platform fold up so I could save 20-30 bucks a night when transient docking. Lol

 

[markajh]

Yes and no. The Length at the Waterline is the same unless you changed the hull. That affects your hull speed as a trawler. The extension does affect your Length Over All. When you rent a boat slip they will use the overall length when calculating your fee.

 

[88FuHwa]

If you don't want to hear the answer, don't ask the question. I was told by the broker that our boat is a 35' trawler and I have used that number every time I dock somewhere. I have never actually measured the real lengtht for the reason stated above, and no harbor master has ever questioned me. Now if you want to sell, a larger boat is better.

 

[Captain K]

There's law and there's opinion. Two vastly different things. If you're asking what the law defines as LOA it's quite simple (I refer you all to US 46 CFR: LOA is the longitudinal centerline distance from stemhead to aftermost part of the stern specifically excluding such accoutrements as bowsprits, bobkins, swim platforms or any extension not part of the molded hull.). The previous postings show how unaware of the official definition most folks are, as well as how unimportant the legal definition is to those who profit from ignorance of it.

 

[ProMaritime]

Many marinas use the so-called "sparred length" which is used by the Panama Canal, for one, to calculate transit fees. It is measured from the most aft point (dinghy, dingy davits, swim steps etc.) or what ever is hanging beyond the actual stern of the hull, all the way to the tip of the bow sprit (hence the term "sparred"), the anchor roller or the anchor you left in the roller.

Other facilities use whatever you wrote down or that appearing on the spec sheet of the manufacture.

 

[Captain K]

US 46 CFR sub-section 170.055.

 

[ProMaritime]

That may be US law but marina operators and the Panama Canal Authority are not bound to use it for fee calculations. The speed limit on the interstate may be 70mph but there is no law that says you can't build a car that will go faster than that.

 

[debbiet]

LOL - sore subject here. My husband swears LOA rules...until we arrive at a marina and our anchor overhangs the dock (to where they have to put a construction cone to warn people) and the swim step sticks out into the fairway (to where my 80-Lb dog cannot step onto the finger pier b/c we're beyond the piling). I can't believe they didn't tell us to go away.

Tape measures are our friends

 

[ProMaritime]

US 46 CFR sub-section 170.055. US law and the US Coast Guard definition is irrelevant. They only relate to legal issues. Marine facilities owners and operators can use any definition they want and quite frequently do.