Derelict boat removal. Pinellas Co FL (St Pete area)

[mvweebles]

FYI - pinellas county sheriff's dept has begun removal of 34 derelict boats in ICW waters near Madeira Beach, St Pete Beach, and Treasure Island. Cost is around $160k, call it $5k/each.

https://wusfnews.wusf.usf.edu/envir...begins-removing-derelict-boats-area-waterways

Peter

 

[Comodave]

I am sorta surprised it isn’t costing more per boat to remove them. Maybe some are still floating.

 

[mvweebles]

I drive across a bridge in the area almost daily. Guessing 20% or fewer are sunk. Rest are indeed floating.

Interesting comments from pinellas county sheriff that long term anchor out is more or less legal, though some municipalities have local ordinances against - Madera Beach is one.

Peter

 

[DonW28]

Cost of removing hazardous waste must be much cheaper in FL than NC. Our county blew though that much $$ with just a couple boats. If we could have done $5K each we could have made some progress.

 

[utclmjmper]

That costmay have been just the "removal" part,, the "disposal" part may have not been included..>>>Dan

 

[Comodave]

If most of the are still floating the cost goes down dramatically.

 

[JD5652]

I live in the area as well... just glad that they've found a way around admiralty law to finally so something about abandoned boats... kudos ...

 

[Swa]

Good to hear they are cleaning up our playground. I love it here

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Indeed good news BUT are the "owners" of said derelict craft being charged for the removal or is the taxpayer footing the bill? I think there should be some mechanism to pass the costs onto the owners. This might cause irresponsible owners to think twice about abandonment, perhaps.

Are there plans to extend this idea across the state/country?

Liveaboards are a completely different matter and shouldn't enter into the equation regardless of the condition of their vessels.

 

[utclmjmper]

Greetings,
Indeed good news BUT are the "owners" of said derelict craft being charged for the removal or is the taxpayer footing the bill? I think there should be some mechanism to pass the costs onto the owners. This might cause irresponsible owners to think twice about abandonment, perhaps.

Are there plans to extend this idea across the state/country?

Liveaboards are a completely different matter and shouldn't enter into the equation regardless of the condition of their vessels.

Be careful what you advocate for.>>>Dan

 

[mvweebles]

A 2018 article HERE stating "The state attorney's office will then seek reimbursement through the court system." I think the picture on the front of the article gives a sense of the futility of holding the owner of a derelict boat accountable.

Madeira Beach probably has the greatest concentration of liveaboard/derelicts (fine line between them sometimes) in the Pinellas County area - the ICW widens, and there's a dinghy dock next to a McDonalds/Publix shopping center so it's damn convenient. For those unfamiliar, the Pinellas County beach communities (Clearwater Beach to the north, Treasure Island to the south) are a chain of towns along a 25-mile long strip of barrier island that separates the ICW from the Gulf of Mexico. The beaches are regularly proclaimed some of the most beautiful in the world, and there are some expensive homes/condos.

"utclmjmper" is right - be careful for what you wish. A few years ago, residents of a condo tower on the mainland side of the ICW directly across from Madeira Beach complained loudly about anchor-outs. So they got the Madeira Beach Town Council to pass an anchoring restriction based on 'environmental concerns' (yea.....right) described HERE. In short, anchor-outs are required to get a $5 permit from the fuel dock at the municipal marina, and can only stay 3-days out of any 30-day period.

Problem solved for the condo owners, right??? WRONG!!! Turns out the condo building on the mainland side is outside the Madeira Beach jurisdiction of the waterway. So the law backfired and actualy pushed more anchor-outs towards the condo building, not away.

Having moved to Florida from San Francisco, I am well aware of issues with anchor-outs/derelict boats - Richardson Bay off Sausalito has been grappling with the issue since gold miners came in the 1800's. In a way, my heart goes out to anchor-outs. But in another way, it pisses me off when anchorages are clogged with them. Also pisses me off when public parks and libraries are unusable due to throngs of homeless people.

Oh well.

Peter

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. mv. As I said "liveaboards" are a completely different AND complicated issue. I'm specifically talking about those vessels with no-one aboard that are strewn about almost every waterway or are you saying they are one and the same?

 

[High Wire]

In Marco Island or Naples Florida, law enforcement has deemed derelict boat recovery costs as “court costs” charged to the person responsible. The water cops on patrol ensure those living aboard are legally tied to the vessel (properly registered) before it sinks. The sheriff said the process has been working very well.

 

[mvweebles]

Greetings,
Mr. mv. As I said "liveaboards" are a completely different AND complicated issue. I'm specifically talking about those vessels with no-one aboard that are strewn about almost every waterway or are you saying they are one and the same?

I'm saying there is a continuum, not clean categories. At one end you have a long abandoned anchored boat. At the other, the retiree-cruiser passing through who carries insurance, makes an effort to comply with MSD regulations, sets an anchor light, etc. Somewhere nearby on the continuum is the homeless person who is one hose-clamp away from being detritus - the marine equivilent of living out of an old Ford Escort with no insurance and expired tags.

I am tremendously sympathetic to the homeless situation. I fully understand and appreciate there are tragic events and poor choices that led to their plight and I wish there was a magic wand solution. I know they are in survival mode and following rules is not high on their daily to-do list. But tolerating usurpation of public resources is not a proxy to their plight - be it a public park or be it a waterway.

To me, the solution to derelict boats is pretty straightfoward, at least in my area that is heavily trafficked and patrolled: if a boat isn't registered and isn't insured, impound it. Just like we do with autos. Don't care if it's Larry Ellison's yacht or a homeless guy. Sure, there would be a high initial cost, but only at the outset.

Peter

 

[mvweebles]

I lived aboard my boat at Naval Station Treasure Island, San Francisco. The marina sat in arguably the best anchorage in SF Bay. Cipper Cove was named for the PanAm "Clipper" planes that would land on water instead of a tarmac. Clipper Cove was ideally situated so the planes could land into the prevailing NE winds. Clipper Cove was formed by USCG/VTS-controlled Yerba Buena Island and manmade Treasure Island. The anchorage was under federal jurisidiction in its entirity.

Although the Coast Pilot listed Clipper Cove as off-limits for anchoring, no one knew it and anchoring was freely allowed. But.....if someone showed signs of becoming cozy, say staying more than about 2-weeks, the harbor master would put on his dress-uniform and venture out to chat with the boat owner. Twice the boat was unattended and was towed to the dock. One of which was sold in a sealed auction. Probably wasn't legal, but who is going to put up a fight?

Peter

 

[Shrew]

2,500 - 5K is about the average cost for a salvage. It gets more expensive the more, and larger, the equipment needed.

 

[BandB]

Florida has very slightly strengthened the laws on derelict and abandoned vessels over the past few years. it is a 1st degree misdemeanor in addition to civil assessments. The reality is very few owners will be located and even fewer actually pay. These boats were clearly abandoned so the owners have no real interest, are not regularly checking on the boats, and likely have no funds to handle any fines or charges. These are mostly smaller boats and appears wise foresight in removing prior to sinking.

 

[ancora]

There's no such thing as a free lunch...nor a free anchorage.

 

[twistedtree]

So what would be some good ways to distinguish a boat that might just be unsightly from one that is derelict and should be confiscated? That seems to be the tricky line to draw.

Is there a practical seaworthiness test? If so you might be able to identify bots that are more likely to sink and become a bigger public liability. That seems to be one of the objectives. But I can’t envision a practical assessment. I know some marinas stipulate that a bot must be operable and movable under its own power. So maybe require that the bot owner demonstrate this every 3 months or something like that?

A boat that is unoccupied for some period of time might be a test for abandonment. But how long, and how do you monitor? And how
much time does one need to spend on the boat to trigger abandonment?

Then there is the issue of essentially squatting on a public resource and making it your own. This is part of the problem with encampments on public lands, parks, etc. These resources are there for all of us to use, and not to the exclusion of others. So how long is too long to be anchored somewhere?

These are tough questions as you try to balance fairness, and draw lines between allowed use, vs abuse. Different authorities have tried various methods, so pretty good, and others pretty bad or with very undesirable side effects.

 

[mvweebles]

So what would be some good ways to distinguish a boat that might just be unsightly from one that is derelict and should be confiscated? That seems to be the tricky line to draw.

Is there a practical seaworthiness test? If so you might be able to identify bots that are more likely to sink and become a bigger public liability. That seems to be one of the objectives. But I can’t envision a practical assessment. I know some marinas stipulate that a bot must be operable and movable under its own power. So maybe require that the bot owner demonstrate this every 3 months or something like that?

A boat that is unoccupied for some period of time might be a test for abandonment. But how long, and how do you monitor? And how
much time does one need to spend on the boat to trigger abandonment?

Then there is the issue of essentially squatting on a public resource and making it your own. This is part of the problem with encampments on public lands, parks, etc. These resources are there for all of us to use, and not to the exclusion of others. So how long is too long to be anchored somewhere?

These are tough questions as you try to balance fairness, and draw lines between allowed use, vs abuse. Different authorities have tried various methods, so pretty good, and others pretty bad or with very undesirable side effects.

Why is this so different than cars? For operation on public waterways, gotta have current insurance and registration. If you don't, you're at risk of being impounded (or impounded in-place like marinas do when they chain-up a boat). No judgement needed to determine whether a boat/owner is derelict or seaworthy - insurance company will figure that out.

Peter

 

[JLD]

The article linked in the first post, says the county is posting notices and the owners have 21 days to respond. No response and the boat is assumed to be a derelict.

It also notes that such living arrangements (on these boats) are legal, as long as the boat has "navigable propulsion" — a proper motor or sails that will allow it to travel in the water.

Jim

 

[denverd0n]

It also notes that such living arrangements (on these boats) are legal, as long as the boat has "navigable propulsion" — a proper motor or sails that will allow it to travel in the water.

Exactly. If a boat is abandoned, then it's abandoned and can be removed. If someone is living aboard then the boat must be capable of being safely navigated on the waterways. If it cannot be, then it is a derelict and subject to being removed.

This seems reasonable to me. I think of it like, if you are living in your car, well, okay. If you're at a rest stop, and your car breaks down there, you don't get to just live there however long you'd like. You need to get it fixed and at least be CAPABLE of moving along at some point.

 

[ancora]

So what would be some good ways to distinguish a boat that might just be unsightly from one that is derelict and should be confiscated? That seems to be the tricky line to draw.

Is there a practical seaworthiness test? If so you might be able to identify bots that are more likely to sink and become a bigger public liability. That seems to be one of the objectives. But I can’t envision a practical assessment. I know some marinas stipulate that a bot must be operable and movable under its own power. So maybe require that the bot owner demonstrate this every 3 months or something like that?

A boat that is unoccupied for some period of time might be a test for abandonment. But how long, and how do you monitor? And how
much time does one need to spend on the boat to trigger abandonment?

Then there is the issue of essentially squatting on a public resource and making it your own. This is part of the problem with encampments on public lands, parks, etc. These resources are there for all of us to use, and not to the exclusion of others. So how long is too long to be anchored somewhere?

These are tough questions as you try to balance fairness, and draw lines between allowed use, vs abuse. Different authorities have tried various methods, so pretty good, and others pretty bad or with very undesirable side effects.

San Diego solved their "homestead" problem by limiting the amount of time a vessel can be unoccupied....it's in hours not days or weeks.

 

[jleonard]

A couple of boats up my way in northern Pinellas (Anclote River park) have also been removed in the past few months. Glad to see them gone.

 

[DW1979OA]

And the cost of removal sky rockets when you have a 90’wooden tugboat that had been used as a liveaboard for the last couple of years by an elderly couple. Local laws kept it moving after a period of time. But now it is aground and abandoned off Kingston Washington. Estimated costs to remove is $590,000. Don’t think the state will be able to recover anything from the owners.

The analogy to car removal doesn’t work. They are easily towed and can eventually be recycled for the most part. The fluid content is relatively small.

It seems that my annual registration fee for my 16’ CC woody has a line item of $5.00 for derelict vessel removal that tries to handle the situation. Wonder if that goes into the general fund. Take a whole lot of $5 fees to cover the old tug removal.

 

[ssobol]

... You need to get it fixed and at least be CAPABLE of moving along at some point.

The tricky bit is who gets to decide on what "capable of moving" means and what is "at some point".

If I cut a derelict boat loose it will be moving (usually).

 

[BandB]

And the cost of removal sky rockets when you have a 90’wooden tugboat that had been used as a liveaboard for the last couple of years by an elderly couple. Local laws kept it moving after a period of time. But now it is aground and abandoned off Kingston Washington. Estimated costs to remove is $590,000. Don’t think the state will be able to recover anything from the owners.

The analogy to car removal doesn’t work. They are easily towed and can eventually be recycled for the most part. The fluid content is relatively small.

It seems that my annual registration fee for my 16’ CC woody has a line item of $5.00 for derelict vessel removal that tries to handle the situation. Wonder if that goes into the general fund. Take a whole lot of $5 fees to cover the old tug removal.

When we were in Washington in 2014 they were doing a major removal project and the average cost to them then was $50,000 per vessel. The difference was likely they were not in as bad a condition as the one you mention plus they were at docks. They were pulled ashore by front end loaders and then crushed a few feet at a time with the scraps loaded into dumpsters and hauled away.

Fortunately, the Florida boats of this thread are being removed while they may still have some salvage value and, at worst, can be destroyed by regular salvage people.

In Key West a few years ago there was a major problem of abandoned derelict boats left at marinas. This was before the current law which allows state or local intervention. The issue was that the marina ultimately became the owner of the abandoned vessel and then they could be liable for any damages such as environmental. They were scared to move the boats and get them to land. So, the solution. A lot of boats hit E-bay and Craigslist and were sold for anything from $1 to $10,000 with the provision they had to be removed from the marina. People paid $10 and then found out the cost to move it would be $20,000, which they didn't have. I know one boat sold to a homeless man for $1 and the marina helped him get it running and got him on his way. He did get away from the marina, although not very far, before it started sinking and the Coast Guard had to rescue him. The estimate I heard them for removal was $500,000. I don't know what ultimately happened.

Marinas, and we the public, are victims of their own complacency for decades. They didn't have and enforce standards. As long as they got paid, they did nothing. Even when the boat owner stopped paying the slip fee, they were slow to act and the laws didn't provide them much help.

 

[ssobol]

But when there is a hurricane they seem to have no trouble picking up boats and shredding them. A couple of years ago, there a number of vacant lots and unused parking lots around MIA where piles of boats pulled out of the nearby waterways were being converted into tiny pieces by large machines.

 

[rslifkin]

But when there is a hurricane they seem to have no trouble picking up boats and shredding them. A couple of years ago, there a number of vacant lots and unused parking lots around MIA where piles of boats pulled out of the nearby waterways were being converted into tiny pieces by large machines.

There's a good chance that the owners or their insurance companies are paying for it in that situation.

 

[BandB]

But when there is a hurricane they seem to have no trouble picking up boats and shredding them. A couple of years ago, there a number of vacant lots and unused parking lots around MIA where piles of boats pulled out of the nearby waterways were being converted into tiny pieces by large machines.

And they've gotten far better at doing so in the last few years.