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Old 05-26-2018, 12:13 PM   #41
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Old 05-26-2018, 02:02 PM   #42
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Gene...please post your findings when issue solved. Thx, PD
The engine mounted circuit breaker had tripped. Had a devil of a time finding it. The location was not shown in any of the engine view drawings in my O&M manual. Finally found a photo on the Seaboard Marine website. I was looking for a lever type circuit breaker and this is a push button style.

Once reset the engine fired right up. I am going to clean the terminals but with the age of the boat I plan on ordering a new breaker next week.

The good news is that I cleaned a lot of electrical connections that needed it and learned a lot more about our boat systems in the process.

Thanks once again to everyone who replied yesterday, especially Ski.

Gene
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Old 05-26-2018, 02:26 PM   #43
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Simi- What engine do you have? Starter are all pretty similar, but what varies is how the shutdown is handled. Some are electric to stop, some are electric to run, some have a mechanical pull cable to stop.
Cummins nta855m
No pull cable, just flick toggle from run to off.
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Old 05-26-2018, 02:30 PM   #44
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Gene, nice to see that you found the problem. I know what you mean about learning about your boat and engine.
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Old 05-26-2018, 02:54 PM   #45
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This story is the main reason I don't buy electronically controlled engines or boats with them. For 70 years plus, almost all diesels once started ran until out of fuel. Everything was mechanical. Many old style engines run for decades without repairs. Anything that interferes with a diesel engine running doesn't belong on a boat. Especially one that may go far from land.

Commercial operators forced into installing these unreliable engines, over time, end up carrying hundreds if not thousands of dollars in overpriced spares. And for what? Slightly better economy or a little cleaner exhaust from the smallest group of engine users in any country. The only people happy with the reliability are the ones selling replacement parts and services. Or maybe the tow services.
Yeah, it's an old guy rant, but really about change for worse. One thing nice about being old, I can live out my life running engines that will get me home.
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Old 05-26-2018, 03:40 PM   #46
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Lepke I agree with your comments about electronically controlled engines but that is a different story.
Gene's 6BTA is mechanical, and stopped initially because of low power to a normally closed fuel solenoid.
To me for a marine engine the fuel solenoid should be normally open. That way once it is running you shouldn't need power to keep it going.
I have had a similar failure on one of my Yanmar 315's but on that engine the solenoid is an all enclosed plunger type with no hope of a cable tie to hold it open. So now (after lots of expense tracking the fault), I carry a spare.
My question is does anyone have a clever idea of how to convert to normally open?
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Old 05-26-2018, 03:55 PM   #47
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Gene, nice to see that you found the problem. I know what you mean about learning about your boat and engine.
Dave,

I would be a lot more comfortable if I knew WHY the breaker opened. The screws that mount it in place appear to have the original factory paint. I just finished removing the breaker, cleaning the connections and reinstalling it.

Hopefully it is just an age related issue (the boat is a 1999) and that replacing the breaker will fix everything. I am not electrically savvy enough to know the other possible reasons that it opened.

Gene
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Old 05-26-2018, 06:25 PM   #48
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This story is the main reason I don't buy electronically controlled engines or boats with them. For 70 years plus, almost all diesels once started ran until out of fuel. Everything was mechanical. Many old style engines run for decades without repairs. Anything that interferes with a diesel engine running doesn't belong on a boat. Especially one that may go far from land.

Commercial operators forced into installing these unreliable engines, over time, end up carrying hundreds if not thousands of dollars in overpriced spares. And for what? Slightly better economy or a little cleaner exhaust from the smallest group of engine users in any country. The only people happy with the reliability are the ones selling replacement parts and services. Or maybe the tow services.
Yeah, it's an old guy rant, but really about change for worse. One thing nice about being old, I can live out my life running engines that will get me home.
You could have made the same argument about electronic controls in cars and they seem to work out pretty well. I have had mechanical controlled diesels and electronically controlled diesels and donít want to go back to mechanical. My current electronic engines (Cats) just passed 4000 hours and are awesome. They run clean and smoke free from a cold start. They will idle for a week or run at full throttle for hours and I get no smoke, fumes, or unburned fuel. Its progress I am happy to have. And by the way, Iím not a young guy.
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Old 05-26-2018, 06:41 PM   #49
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Dave,



I would be a lot more comfortable if I knew WHY the breaker opened. The screws that mount it in place appear to have the original factory paint. I just finished removing the breaker, cleaning the connections and reinstalling it.



Hopefully it is just an age related issue (the boat is a 1999) and that replacing the breaker will fix everything. I am not electrically savvy enough to know the other possible reasons that it opened.



Gene


Oh, I hear you Gene. I also think it is worth knowing why it opened. I donít like intermittent problems.
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Old 05-26-2018, 08:07 PM   #50
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You could have made the same argument about electronic controls in cars and they seem to work out pretty well. I have had mechanical controlled diesels and electronically controlled diesels and don’t want to go back to mechanical. My current electronic engines (Cats) just passed 4000 hours and are awesome. They run clean and smoke free from a cold start. They will idle for a week or run at full throttle for hours and I get no smoke, fumes, or unburned fuel. Its progress I am happy to have. And by the way, I’m not a young guy.
I know of several boats build in countries with all the flash diagnostic gear and mechanics at hand and all was good.
They then went to remote areas like PNG, Indo, Solomons,Vanuatu where diagnostic tools were probably a stick and a hammer and they were a pita.
A couple of them that remained as work boats had the modern engines replaced with old rebuilt simple engines, others had to came back to civilisation.
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Old 05-27-2018, 12:15 AM   #51
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I know of several boats build in countries with all the flash diagnostic gear and mechanics at hand and all was good.
They then went to remote areas like PNG, Indo, Solomons,Vanuatu where diagnostic tools were probably a stick and a hammer and they were a pita.
A couple of them that remained as work boats had the modern engines replaced with old rebuilt simple engines, others had to came back to civilisation.
Mine havenít had any issues so repair capability hasnít been relevant. Also I limit my travels to the west coast of North America and the Caribe and service is generally reasonably available. If I decide to head to Vanautu I will carefully consider the possible drawbacks of depending on techology that canít be fixed with a hammer.
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Old 05-27-2018, 01:32 AM   #52
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Mine havenít had any issues .
Yet
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so repair capability hasnít been relevant. Also I limit my travels to the west coast of North America and the Caribe and service is generally reasonably available.
Those two words in bold would be enough to put me off if I had a choice.
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Old 05-27-2018, 04:55 AM   #53
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"To me for a marine engine the fuel solenoid should be normally open. That way once it is running you shouldn't need power to keep it going."


Installing a push pull cable might cost less than a solenoid , and be far more reliable.
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Old 05-27-2018, 07:43 AM   #54
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Dave,

I would be a lot more comfortable if I knew WHY the breaker opened.
That is a good attitude. Could be age, could be an intermittent short. So take this time to find a replacement in case the breaker fails permanently. Also eyeball the entire harness for chafe and cracked insulation.
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Old 05-27-2018, 09:17 AM   #55
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Gene- Glad you found the popped breaker. But of course it begs the question why it popped, and we don't know that. There is not that much stuff downstream of the breaker, but boatbuilders like to get creative with wiring and who knows what they have running off that system. I too would replace it as a first step. And then run it and see if it recurs. At least now you know where it is and can reset it quickly, and worst case do the zip tie and jump thing.

Simi- Your NTA 855's use a PT pump that has been used in a bazillion road tractors which use an electric to run solenoid. Lose power, engine stops. Sounds like that is your arrangement too. I think there are industrial versions that use an electric to stop, but I have never looked into it. Might be as simple as a solenoid swap and then replace you toggle with a stop push button.

Those with 6BTA/6CTA the solenoid arrangement can be changed to electric to stop, but all were rather crude redneck things. I don't think I've seen a clean kit for the Bosch P7100. I just keep an eye on my system volts and if for some reason it starts dropping, I'll go zip tie the solenoid before volts get too low.
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Old 05-27-2018, 03:03 PM   #56
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That is a good attitude. Could be age, could be an intermittent short. So take this time to find a replacement in case the breaker fails permanently. Also eyeball the entire harness for chafe and cracked insulation.


Thermal circuit breakers are not known for absolute reliability. A loose connection on the CB can cause a trip.
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Old 05-27-2018, 05:02 PM   #57
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.

Simi- Your NTA 855's use a PT pump that has been used in a bazillion road tractors which use an electric to run solenoid. Lose power, engine stops. Sounds like that is your arrangement too. I think there are industrial versions that use an electric to stop, but I have never looked into it. Might be as simple as a solenoid swap and then replace you toggle with a stop push button.
.
Thanks for that.
There are indications in this thread that a screw at the left in picture can be wound out to let fuel flow and wind back in to stop.
https://talk.newagtalk.com/forums/th...splayType=flat

Would that work do you think?

Our solenoid looks like this but painted white.
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Old 05-27-2018, 11:47 PM   #58
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This is quite an illuminating thread.

Can any of you share previous experience when jumping the starter as described?

Does it cause any other detrimental issues?

Can this be done on an 'experimental' basis, to try it without being in extremis to find out how to do it, but not cause other issues?

Seems like an awesome thing to put in the manual as a 'back up' plan.
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Old 05-28-2018, 12:06 AM   #59
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Cappy:
I had to call my mechanic, when my boat was new to me and I couldn't get the starter solenoid to pull in and power the starter. His suggestion: using a large screwdriver with an insulated handle, reach into the area of the starter solenoid ( on the off side of the Port engine), until I contacted the terminals and the engine fired.
No consequences. You can try this (Try it on the exposed side of the Starboard engine) the results are dramatic the first time. No harm to the equipment.
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Old 05-28-2018, 09:14 AM   #60
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U guys are scaring me. Shorting terminals, potentially with an unfused source of a kAmp must be done by someone who knows what each term does.
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