Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 02-06-2017, 07:07 PM   #21
TF Site Team
 
Insequent's Avatar
 
City: Brisbane
Vessel Name: Insequent
Vessel Model: Ocean Alexander 50 Mk I
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 3,676
Quote:
Originally Posted by bayview View Post
for remote places using drum fuel people in the past used a filter funnel to pre screen the fuel before it gets into the tank and or stop fueling and sort out the problem.

How does one use a 100 gallon day tank on a longer trip? are you continuously filling it watching for over fill or just take the chance of running dry?
I normally fill the day tanks in the morning before setting off for the day's run.

At cruise speeds I'm using around +/-3 gph per engine, less if I'm in no rush. So 100 gallon day tanks for each engine is plenty for a daytime run. Were I going to run overnight or for a few days non-stop then I would probably just open the tank inter-connectors between the day tanks and the lateral tanks assuming I was filling at reliable sources. The fuel return is warm so I would not want to run the day tank too low or fuel temp might start to become an issue.



A filter funnel makes sense for occasional drum fills. I'd re-think the system if I was going to be using drum fuel a lot. Perhaps have a polisher pickup line that went to the drum?
__________________
Brian
Insequent is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2017, 07:19 PM   #22
Guru
 
TDunn's Avatar
 
City: Maine Coast
Vessel Name: Tortuga
Vessel Model: Nunes Brothers Raised Deck Cruiser
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 889
I have two 20 gallon tanks. Only the port tank has a fuel fill. The starboard tank is filled by pumping through one of my Racor filters using a dedicated transfe rpump. I run off the starboard tank using my second Racor. 20 gallons of fuel is about 40 hours run time at my normal 6-6.5 kt cruise speed.

My fuel manifold lets me select either tank and either Racor. I can also select which tank to return fuel to. Consequently, my full 40 gallons is available (i.e., ~80 hours run time).
TDunn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2017, 07:51 PM   #23
Guru
 
Sailor of Fortune's Avatar
 
City: St Augustine,Fl
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,683
I think "day tanks are an unnecessary complication on a smaller yacht, IF you have good filtration and monitoring of fuel. I don't think its necessary to have a fuel polishing setup if you have tank cleanout ports and they are used. The SBAR (Tony Athens ) setup is first class and makes clean fuel easy. I would much rather be able to open tanks from time to time than have a blind guessing game and a "polisher" system. YMMV, my opinion only.
Sailor of Fortune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2017, 07:53 PM   #24
Senior Member
 
City: Ft Lauderdale
Vessel Model: 120' Custom, Cat 3512's, 1750 HP ea.
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 174
I carry 16,000 Gals in 10 tanks, my first centerline tank is approx 2650 Gals and is a dedicated day tank, and is the only tank with engine suction and returns. Under normal cruising I top off twice a day, each time I'm on watch. But we're a bit bigger than 60', lol.

ps: I also have a dedicated clean oil tank (420 Gal) and waste oil tank (420 Gal) each with it's own gear pump and deck cam-lock connection.
BerettaRacer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2017, 08:03 PM   #25
Guru
 
Sailor of Fortune's Avatar
 
City: St Augustine,Fl
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,683
In your situation a day tank is almost a neccesity . The tug I run has 16,000 gallon day tanks and a 90% fuel capacity of 220,000 gallons, I still wouldn't want a day tank setup on a small boat. Unneccessary in my opinion. Why look for complications? Modern fuel filtration takes care of fuel cleanliness .
Sailor of Fortune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2017, 08:15 PM   #26
Senior Member
 
City: Ft Lauderdale
Vessel Model: 120' Custom, Cat 3512's, 1750 HP ea.
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailor of Fortune View Post
In your situation a day tank is almost a neccesity . The tug I run has 16,000 gallon day tanks and a 90% fuel capacity of 220,000 gallons, I still wouldn't want a day tank setup on a small boat. Unneccessary in my opinion. Why look for complications? Modern fuel filtration takes care of fuel cleanliness .
Can't remember the exact date, I think maybe mid to later 90's, I took a 255' ice class tug across the Atlantic, she held a LOT of fue tool.
On the aft deck area, as the hull sloped up over the props, someone had cut the top off one of the tanks, lined it with tile, and it made a perfect shallow to deep swimming pool, LOLOL
BerettaRacer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2017, 08:32 PM   #27
Guru
 
diver dave's Avatar
 
City: Palm Coast, FL
Vessel Name: Coquina
Vessel Model: Lagoon 380
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 2,393
Sailor of F: Interesting perspective. Why do you suppose large vessels have day tanks? I'm not familiar with the regs of larger boats, but I'll suspect insurers like Lloyd's, etc are driving this, if not them then maybe det norske or others. The chance of failure of the larger boats is likely no higher, but the consequences are. Certainly these boats can employ centrifugal water separators that small boats can't.
Bottom line; would you think that the use of a day tank on smaller boats makes the system more or less reliable?
diver dave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2017, 08:59 PM   #28
Guru
 
City: New Orleans
Vessel Name: Scot Free
Vessel Model: Cheoy Lee 53' Efficient
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 752
I can tell you that on ships that run on heavy fuel oil, the day tanks are heated to boil off water and the make the fuel more viscous and easier to inject into the engine. This is done in the day tank so that there is no requirement to use huge amounts of energy to heat the main fuel tanks. On tugs and other workboats it is a place to store the fuel that has been prepped for use by running it through a centrifuge.
If your fuel is not going to be treated on board in some fashion prior to use, there is no real need for a day tank. However, if your vessel has a fuel treatment or cleaning option and you carry large quantities in individual tanks then a day tank is a good place to hold your treated fuel prior to use.
McGillicuddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2017, 09:01 PM   #29
Senior Member
 
City: Ft Lauderdale
Vessel Model: 120' Custom, Cat 3512's, 1750 HP ea.
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by diver dave View Post
Sailor of F: Interesting perspective. Why do you suppose large vessels have day tanks? I'm not familiar with the regs of larger boats, but I'll suspect insurers like Lloyd's, etc are driving this, if not them then maybe det norske or others. The chance of failure of the larger boats is likely no higher, but the consequences are. Certainly these boats can employ centrifugal water separators that small boats can't.
Bottom line; would you think that the use of a day tank on smaller boats makes the system more or less reliable?
I believe day tanks are a throwback to the old freighter etc days with bunker C fuel. In storage tanks, especially in colder climates, bunkers had the consistency somewhere between molasses and liquid road tar. You'd have to pull the fuel up into heating and settling tanks, heat it with residual waste heat from the boilers and let the crap separate out by gravity once it became fluid. Then transferred, clean, into the "day" tank to burn from.
BerettaRacer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2017, 09:08 PM   #30
Guru
 
Xsbank's Avatar
 
City: Pender Harbour, BC
Vessel Name: Gwaii Haanas
Vessel Model: Custom Aluminum 52
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 3,791
I have a friend who had a Nordhavn (47?), on his trip from Santa Barbara to Cabo his engine stopped. He had gotten some bad fuel from the marina in S.B. and for reasons of pure laziness, on this longish passage had gotten tired of moving fuel through the filters to the day tank, changed his routine and let the fuel go straight to the engine. Killed his wing engine too. He spent a very bad night in swells trying to get the crap out of his engine so he could continue.

Day tanks are a very good solution to cruising - who would ever expect bad fuel from a large port like Santa Barbara? Just keep using them!
__________________
Don't believe everything that you think.
Xsbank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2017, 09:21 PM   #31
Guru
 
Lou_tribal's Avatar
 
City: Quebec
Vessel Name: Bleuvet
Vessel Model: Custom Built
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 4,277
Quote:
Originally Posted by menzies View Post
I'd be concerned that if I did that at my local fuel dock I would end up wet!
I am not worrying too much about fuel quality at my marina knowing that they have brand new tank and that the fuel is "car type" diesel but the day I will refuel in an unknown place I may be a bit less comfortable. For now it is nothing to worry about for me as considering the type of cruise I do and my fuel capacity I am only refueling 2 or 3 times a year and in 2 different places I am confident are safe on that side.
Lou_tribal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2017, 09:22 PM   #32
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Ft Pierce
Vessel Name: Sold
Vessel Model: Was an Albin/PSN 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 25,624
Fuel system setup varies so much, some boats, especially smaller ones, you cannot use regular tanks like day tanks with good fuel management.

I have been running boats a long enough time both rec and commercial to have a feel for what works and what is overkill.

I have had crap and water in fuel, but never was stuck for more than a half hour or so to get going again. Like 3 times in many years of running small vessels.

It is just not that big a deal if you try and manage your fuel and do fuel checks when prudent.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2017, 09:24 PM   #33
Guru
 
Sailor of Fortune's Avatar
 
City: St Augustine,Fl
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,683
I can't speak for large ships but on the tugs I work on your going to get "Bottoms" from tank farms, large areas of steel are subject to rust, condensation, welding slag etc. I have been through shipyard periods where th yard told us to "button up that tank shes' clean" and the chief engineer "dove the tank" and passed up staging planks, 5 gallon buckets of welding slag, rags, sand blast sand etc. Bottoms are bad enough. A 100,000 gallon load is ALWAYS going to get you junk. "Cappy" on here can vouch for this too. Fuel farms in NY/Nj turn over fuel quickly too. If its that contaminated here, its probably worse other places. Some of the best fuel we recieved was in Gibraltar on a wreck removal job. Unfortunately that was fuel that was warm weather and it Waxed up after a Winter transatlantic passage. We had to isolate it (thousands of gallons) until we were towing hard or went south.
Sailor of Fortune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2017, 11:19 PM   #34
Guru
 
twistedtree's Avatar
 
City: Walkabout Creek
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 7,931
Re operating off a day tank, we just make it part of periodic checks. Ours is good for around 30 hrs of run time, so if we are just day cruising we will check at the on-set of each day and fill up if needed, which is only required every few days. If running 24/7, we just keep an eye on it and top up as needed. We usually run the day tank between 25% and maybe 80% full. I have it alarmed at about 20% to help avoid stupidity on my part. When filling, we draw alternately from each of our main side tanks. That keeps the boat trim, and we adjust as needed if things start to get off.
__________________
MVTanglewood.com
twistedtree is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2017, 05:10 AM   #35
Guru
 
Lepke's Avatar
 
City: Between Oregon and Alaska
Vessel Name: Charlie Harper
Vessel Model: Wheeler Shipyard 83'
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,736
I have a 200 gallon day tank and another 1800 gallons in 3 main tanks. All my tanks can be filled from the deck. I have Detroit mains and each pump 35 gallons an hour and burn about 4+ @10kts. I add fuel to the day tank as it gets down to 1/4 full or when fueling the other tanks. I have a pair of 500 Racor filter housings and use 2 micron filters. I change the primary about 500 hours, about 4300 gallons burned and about 18,000 gallons thru the filter. Plus whatever the generators use. All fuel goes thru the Racor filters. I always use a conditioner/catalyst. I almost always buy fuel at commercial fuel dock or where tugs and commercial users fuel. Only in desperation at yacht marinas. I have found many small fuel sellers have no consistent filter maintenance and can have very old fuel. I personally fuel my own tanks. That way I don't get gasoline in my diesel.
Lepke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2017, 07:23 AM   #36
Guru
 
cafesport's Avatar
 
City: Miami
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 683
We have one on our 55 footer which is small but dual purposed. Since it is also our lowest tank, It has a built in sump which allows it to collect any water from the other 5 main supply tanks if the inlet valves are set for gravity feeding. Underway the valves are closed and all fuel must be drawn through a 10 micron racor. All return fuel is sent to the day tank, otherwise we could only run an hour as the the tank is only 30 gallons.
__________________
Via iOS.
cafesport is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2017, 08:34 AM   #37
Guru
 
diver dave's Avatar
 
City: Palm Coast, FL
Vessel Name: Coquina
Vessel Model: Lagoon 380
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 2,393
An interesting spread of answers. Ranging from 100,000 gallon systems to 40 with day tanks. I don't suppose I'll be buying a steam plant so likely won't have to build a fire under any day tank to loosen up the fuel .

So, scaling up the situation in post #22. Let's say now that something like a GB42 is targeted for a day tank. One possible solution is make one existing tank the day tank. If doing this from scratch, that tank would not have a deck fill, would perhaps vent into the other tank, the engines/genset would only feed from the DT, and there would be no Y valves for the feed and the return fuel lines. You have a set of filters from the pumped main tank feed into the DT. Seems like things are getting simpler, not more complicated.

But here is an issue. It's time to refuel, and I need 300 gallons in each tank. The speed of the dock pump could far exceed the capability to transfer fuel. I'll take on 300 gallons, then have to wait until that quantity transfers to the day tank; then take on another 300 gallons. I think the dock boy and any waiting vessels are going to be not amused. The solution is a fast transfer system, and likely scaling up the Racors for 10x the normal rating. Beyond that, it appears to be a workable, minimalist system.
The other option is to add a real DT. Only works if space is available.
diver dave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2017, 08:49 AM   #38
Guru
 
Sailor of Fortune's Avatar
 
City: St Augustine,Fl
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,683
Seems to me to be a lot of work solving problem that doesn't exist. Multi stage filtration and tank access for cleaning would still be required with or without your day tank addition.
Sailor of Fortune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2017, 09:56 AM   #39
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Ft Pierce
Vessel Name: Sold
Vessel Model: Was an Albin/PSN 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 25,624
Quote:
Originally Posted by diver dave View Post
An interesting spread of answers. Ranging from 100,000 gallon systems to 40 with day tanks. I don't suppose I'll be buying a steam plant so likely won't have to build a fire under any day tank to loosen up the fuel .

So, scaling up the situation in post #22. Let's say now that something like a GB42 is targeted for a day tank. One possible solution is make one existing tank the day tank. If doing this from scratch, that tank would not have a deck fill, would perhaps vent into the other tank, the engines/genset would only feed from the DT, and there would be no Y valves for the feed and the return fuel lines. You have a set of filters from the pumped main tank feed into the DT. Seems like things are getting simpler, not more complicated.

But here is an issue. It's time to refuel, and I need 300 gallons in each tank. The speed of the dock pump could far exceed the capability to transfer fuel. I'll take on 300 gallons, then have to wait until that quantity transfers to the day tank; then take on another 300 gallons. I think the dock boy and any waiting vessels are going to be not amused. The solution is a fast transfer system, and likely scaling up the Racors for 10x the normal rating. Beyond that, it appears to be a workable, minimalist system.
The other option is to add a real DT. Only works if space is available.
If you are serious about keeping some operating fuel clean, and not planning on crossing an ocean that needs all your fuel.....

Just never fill all your tanks at once, or not at the same place.

Not sure why the concern about filling up all at once....hopefully your day tank is full enough to get to and from a fillup.

You fillup and transfer filtered fuel to the day tank at a slightly greater rate than the fuel burn underway.

I really think you need to grasp the concept of getting clean fuel to begin with and how to get that to your engine(s). There are many ways to do it, with or without a day tank.

Pick a method that you like and fits both your boat and budget.

I worked enough commercial jobs to know the crap fuel passed around....from big tugs, dredges, barges, etc..etc...

But until you go to places that are rarely visited or are barrel farms or you get there with more than 1/2 your fuel gone......cruising in most of North America us not that scary when it comes to fuel.

I have had and friends have had very bad fuel for out helicopters that could have caused crashes. Only one resulted in a dual engine flameout, thankfully on the ground. None of my friends and coworkers that I know of had fuel isdues resulting in anything more than an engine shutdown and filter change. No drama.

Can it happen? Sure.

My 2 engine shutdowns in the last 12,000 miles were from air and I have received nothing short of excellent fuel between NJ and FL.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2017, 10:07 AM   #40
Member
 
City: Dives-sur-mer
Vessel Name: Balder VIII
Vessel Model: north sea trawler 57'
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by cafesport View Post
We have one on our 55 footer which is small but dual purposed. Since it is also our lowest tank, It has a built in sump which allows it to collect any water from the other 5 main supply tanks if the inlet valves are set for gravity feeding. Underway the valves are closed and all fuel must be drawn through a 10 micron racor. All return fuel is sent to the day tank, otherwise we could only run an hour as the the tank is only 30 gallons.
Very interesting, reading all these posts; I wonder: what about the return fuel?
balder is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Trawler Port Captains
Port Captains are TF volunteers who can serve as local guides or assist with local arrangements and information. Search below to locate Port Captains near your destination. To learn more about this program read here: TF Port Captain Program





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:19 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012