Dashew fpb 64

[mvweebles]

Amazing. Ridiculing people who actually own a boat for not choosing the boat you want but don't own. For some, it may not be an affordability issue, rather the FPB doesn'


Arent you the guy who just admitted he's out to bait people he considers "easy marks"? This is a yes/no question.

No. I'm the guy who said you were an easy mark. You filled in the rest.

 

[David Ess]

No. I'm the guy who said you were an easy mark. You filled in the rest.

Ahhh, the answer is....yes..

 

[mvweebles]

Ahhh, the answer is....yes..

Either you are prone to sundowner syndrome, or you imbibe come evening.

Yes or no: have you ever owned a boat over 34 feet?

Ahhh.... The answer is no.

 

[David Ess]

Either you are prone to sundowner syndrome, or you imbibe come evening.

Yes or no: have you ever owned a boat over 34 feet?

Ahhh.... The answer is no.

The answer is......oh, I see it's only you .

 

[Hippocampus]

Peter in response to your post #104
Had an Outbound 46 built for me. That was our most recent boat. Owned Pacific Seacraft, Tayana and one offs. Did blue water on them and also Hinckleys, Amel,, Passport and Hylas. All stick built strong good boats. Believe all would survive a knockdown with spreaders in the water. Totally agree there’s a huge difference purpose built blue water power and sailboat and the majority of series production boats.
Was in a Pearson 424 which was knocked down in the southern end of Block Island Sound on a pleasant day. Not even a fresh breeze. Was below at the time. Told it was a rogue. Tabbing on bulkhead failed. House on non immersed side cracked. It does happen. No way weather reports would have kept us from traveling that day.

 

[mvweebles]

Peter in response to your post #104
Had an Outbound 46 built for me. That was our most recent boat. Owned Pacific Seacraft, Tayana and one offs. Did blue water on them and also Hinckleys, Amel,, Passport and Hylas. All stick built strong good boats. Believe all would survive a knockdown with spreaders in the water. Totally agree there’s a huge difference purpose built blue water power and sailboat and the majority of series production boats.
Was in a Pearson 424 which was knocked down in the southern end of Block Island Sound on a pleasant day. Not even a fresh breeze. Was below at the time. Told it was a rogue. Tabbing on bulkhead failed. House on non immersed side cracked. It does happen. No way weather reports would have kept us from traveling that day.

I have seen well over 40 kts of wind develop around headlands in otherwise calm conditions. But because they form on land and are created by some odd terrestrial interaction, there is no meaningful fetch to underpin sea development.

However, these land-based winds can get pretty fierce. Southern California is famous Santa Ana winds. They are strong enough, broad enough, and sustained enough to reach 30-50 miles offshore and thus will greatly disturb sea state. But now you're into forecasted conditions

But you seem to be referring to a wave, not wind. The energy must come from somewhere. Water does not miraculously lift up and move (vertically). The Dashew article has some decent graphs on wave height and probability. And I have definitely been in locally calm conditions but storms 500+ miles away have generated 3-4 meter rollers so wouldn't be overly surprised to see a 6+ meter tuck in. And I do recall a credible report of a small US Navy ship inbound into SF Bay that encountered a very large wave and sustained damage, but while the wave was much larger than could be easily explained, it wasn't a calm day either. I can't see it as flat going to a roll-the-boat wave.

What is your thinking on the cause of such an occurrence? Where does the energy come from?

 

[David Ess]

Peter in response to your post #104
Had an Outbound 46 built for me. That was our most recent boat. Owned Pacific Seacraft, Tayana and one offs. Did blue water on them and also Hinckleys, Amel,, Passport and Hylas. All stick built strong good boats. Believe all would survive a knockdown with spreaders in the water. Totally agree there’s a huge difference purpose built blue water power and sailboat and the majority of series production boats.
Was in a Pearson 424 which was knocked down in the southern end of Block Island Sound on a pleasant day. Not even a fresh breeze. Was below at the time. Told it was a rogue. Tabbing on bulkhead failed. House on non immersed side cracked. It does happen. No way weather reports would have kept us from traveling that day.

Thanks for corroborating my bold and controversial statement that sudden storms and rogue waves can, and do happen. Its odd that some here have arguedcagainst what all of us who have gone tonsea know.

 

[mvweebles]

Thanks for corroborating my bold and controversial statement that sudden storms and rogue waves can, and do happen. Its odd that some here have arguedcagainst what all of us who have gone tonsea know.

Pray tell us about your seafaring experience. Bold and controversial? Yes, to go against what Steve Dashew said and characterize as bold and controversial is generous. Given Dashews credentials, some might call it arrogant and ignorant, but I won't go that far.

Peter

 

[David Ess]

Pray tell us about your seafaring experience. Bold and controversial? Yes, to go against what Steve Dashew said and characterize as bold and controversial is generous. Given Dashews credentials, some might call it arrogant and ignorant, but I won't go that far.

Peter

Those who...........whoops, only you.

 

[twistedtree]

Those who...........whoops, only you.

Once again, not answering the questions about experience, so you clearly have none worth sharing. All microphone, no throttle.

 

[David Ess]

Once again, not answering the questions about experience, so you clearly have none worth sharing. All microphone, no throttle.

DO get back to us.........but only if you can discuss the points people make, instead of the people. There is a tatin term for that form of false logic.

 

[mvweebles]

Once again, not answering the questions about experience, so you clearly have none worth sharing. All microphone, no throttle.

My favorite is from Texas : "All hat. No cattle." Though I must admit, all mouth and no ears was pretty goof

 

[Hippocampus]

We’re talking about an event 30+ years ago but it was unusual enough to remember it. Left Marion in buzzards bay. I went down below to sleep having been on call the night before. Modest wind waves coming down Buzzards Bay and crossing Castle at ~15 kts true but that’s a decent fetch. We’re headed south so apparent was less and all the rags up. Ocean swell was pretty much E but there was a secondary wave train due to that swell bending around the end of Long Island. So three different directions for the two swells plus the local wind waves. Just like Dashew says there must have been periodic events where these three were synchronized. Over time a isolated wave must have gotten bigger and bigger. Sufficient to hit us right on the beam although the general field of waves were modest in our purely coastal setting. We could see R.I/Connecticut on our starboard and Long Island to port with Block in the distance behind us. Definitely not the local wind as the problem as conditions were quite modest.

 

[David Ess]

We’re talking about an event 30+ years ago but it was unusual enough to remember it. Left Marion in buzzards bay. I went down below to sleep having been on call the night before. Modest wind waves coming down Buzzards Bay and crossing Castle at ~15 kts true but that’s a decent fetch. We’re headed south so apparent was less and all the rags up. Ocean swell was pretty much E but there was a secondary wave train due to that swell bending around the end of Long Island. So three different directions for the two swells plus the local wind waves. Just like Dashew says there must have been periodic events where these three were synchronized. Over time a isolated wave must have gotten bigger and bigger. Sufficient to hit us right on the beam although the general field of waves were modest in our purely coastal setting. We could see R.I/Connecticut on our starboard and Long Island to port with Block in the distance behind us. Definitely not the local wind as the problem as conditions were quite modest.

Thanks for another anecdote of such happening. Had the very same happened now, with the latest tech, do you think it would have picked it up?

 

[mvweebles]

We’re talking about an event 30+ years ago but it was unusual enough to remember it. Left Marion in buzzards bay. I went down below to sleep having been on call the night before. Modest wind waves coming down Buzzards Bay and crossing Castle at ~15 kts true but that’s a decent fetch. We’re headed south so apparent was less and all the rags up. Ocean swell was pretty much E but there was a secondary wave train due to that swell bending around the end of Long Island. So three different directions for the two swells plus the local wind waves. Just like Dashew says there must have been periodic events where these three were synchronized. Over time a isolated wave must have gotten bigger and bigger. Sufficient to hit us right on the beam although the general field of waves were modest in our purely coastal setting. We could see R.I/Connecticut on our starboard and Long Island to port with Block in the distance behind us. Definitely not the local wind as the problem as conditions were quite modest.

15 min documentary on rogue wave formation. Rogue waves are correlated to surrounding significant height of waves so they don't just come out of nowhere. And they don't last long. In closing comments, over the course of a 25 year service life, a cargo ship can expect to encounter one such wave.

https://youtu.be/2ylOpbW1H-I

And a 2 min test tank experiment showing effects. Thinking heavy windows are least of problems

https://youtu.be/eMBU1eXDYDc

Both films are sobering - the probability of a cruising sailor encountering such a wave is more or less zero if you follow the pilot chart recommendations.

Its a decision each sailor must make for them self and their crew. The risk is more or less zero, but it's not absolute zero. Even a well found boat with ridiculous glass ports is at less risk, but not zero. Thus my reference to Meteorite Insurance.

Ocean voyaging may not be for everyone. It's not a zero risk endeavor. Few worthwhile endeavors are. Rogue Waves seem to have a lot more discussion amongst aspiring cruisers than actual cruisers.

Peter

 

[Hippocampus]

Peter this was published for surfers. As coastal as you can get.


https://www.swellnet.com/news/swellnet-analysis/2020/09/15/the-frequency-rogue-waves


You’re talking cattle I’m concerned about steaks. How big a wave do you need to knock down a little 40’ boat? Using 2x the height of the surrounding waves as the definition probably on the same order of frequency as lightening strikes. Our Florida colleagues do spend time thinking about that. So yes rare. But not vanishing rare. Once in 30+ years and with no loss of life nor even need for outside assistance seems pretty good odds to me.

 

[mvweebles]

Peter this was published for surfers. As coastal as you can get.


https://www.swellnet.com/news/swellnet-analysis/2020/09/15/the-frequency-rogue-waves

This is interesting Hippo. The histogram of the waves was educational for me. I thought significant wave height was higher up the probability chart than its show. So I definitely understand the 2x of significant wave height probability. For me, it also lowers the significant wave height slightly though too. Where I would have judged seas to be in the 8 foot range due to the higher waves, SWH is actually closer to 6 feet.

The other takeaway for me is this is a pure statistical analysis. Number of std devs etc. So not much magic. Just numbers.

Thanks. This was helpful and it changed something I thought I knew pretty well. However, these waves are not totally mysterious. The energy comes from somewhere, the combination of other waves.

Peter

 

[Simi 60]

. How big a wave do you need to knock down a little 40’ boat? .

Actual testing was performed by the late, great Loch Crowther one of the words greatest multihull designers
This a snippet from his design book.

Storm survivability should be considered at the design stage for any vessel making offshore passages. Loss of power (clogged cooling or fuel filters, restricted air supply, water ingress, etc) often occurs at the most inopportune time (during a storm), and this can put the solely powered vessel at peril in short order. A vessel with a modest sailing rig could save your life, and that of vessel itself. Add a proper sea anchor installation, and I would challenge a hurricane. The catamaran planform was rated 'best in survivability' in huge breaking wave tests* carried out by Lock Crowther at the prestigious Univ of Southampton.

**Note: reference source, Lock Crowther Designs
"This work (tank testing at Southampton Univ) has indicated that the well designed catamaran is remarkably safe in breaking waves up to considerable height, even when beam on, we were unable to capsize a power catamaran yacht in the largest wave which could be generated. This corresponded to a 52' wave for a catamaran of 40' beam. Scaling this down to a typical 24' beam cruising cat means she should be O.K. in a 31' breaking beam sea. An equivalent size mono-hull power boat was easily capsized by a 25' breaking sea, and in tests with conventional yachts after the Fastnet disaster, it was found that a 40' mono-hull yacht could capsized in a 12' breaking sea

Yet another reason why Sher Khan to me is the better boat than an FPB

 

[David Ess]

Actual testing was performed by the late, great Loch Crowther one of the words greatest multihull designers
This a snippet from his design book.





Yet another reason why Sher Khan to me is the better boat than an FPB

You're ignoring other variables like low center of gravity, air tight compartments, etc. And the fact of escape hatches in catamarans , but not monos. The fpb are designed to self-right.

 

[Simi 60]

You're ignoring other variables like low center of gravity, air tight compartments, etc. .

I am ignoring nothing

And the fact of escape hatches in catamarans but not monos

Show me an ocean going power cat with escape hatches
Some sailing cats have them, but they have entirely different forces at play that powered catamarans do not have

. The fpb are designed to self-right

So is near every sailing mono out there.
Still doesn't stop them rolling over and personally, I'd rather a vessel that simply didn't in the first place, or at least had a greatly reduced chance of.

I would have though you, touting the "safest boat available" mantra would have thought the same.

Safety first.

 

[Hippocampus]

Hang out with both mono and multi blue water sailors. Both can be overwhelmed. Both can capsize. Both can pitchpole although it’s more likely in one than the other.
General rule is below ~50’ easier to design a liveable safe blue water mono. Above that can do it with either .
Each boat should be judged on its individual merits. There’s no way I’d take a power cat designed and optimized for the island charter business on passage. But I’d have no issue with either the tris or Tenant boats designed for that activity. Same with a coastal mono.
Think both sides need to get pass prior basis there are good/bad monos and multis for that activity.

 

[Simi 60]

Hang out with both mono and multi blue water sailors. Both can be overwhelmed. Both can capsize. Both can pitchpole although it’s more likely in one than the other.

Depends on the boat and the designer.
The simple fact that rescue services, ferry services and even military in much of the world are embracing the catamaran platform speaks volumes

There’s no way I’d take a power cat designed and optimized for the island charter business on passage.

Long bow to draw there and again depends on vessel and designer
I have delivered relatively small 60ft powercats designed for inter island work from Australia to pacific islands with zero issue.
Several years ago I was asked to go on a 7000nm run from Brisbane to Dubai but unfortunately was booked into a long stay in Vietnam at the same time.

But I’d have no issue with either the tris or Tenant boats designed for that activity.

So it is the designer
Australia and NZ have many of the worlds best
Loch Crowther now sadly deceased but his son Brett is now at Incat/Crowther
Tennant as mentioned but sadly deceased
Paul and Murray Birgan are up there with - Seaspeed and Seacat

 

[BruceK]

My favorite is from Texas : "All hat. No cattle." Though I must admit, all mouth and no ears was pretty goof

A Paul Keating version was an iceberg analogy,"all tip no berg".

 

[Peter B]

C'mon guys - be nice, remember. David, can you not see they are just yankin' your chain..? Back off now while the going is good.

 

[David Ess]

C'mon guys - be nice, remember. David, can you not see they are just yankin' your chain..? Back off now while the going is good.

So the ad hominems and name calling as 'troll'........is yanking my chain?

 

[Peter B]

In effect - yes..! They are not being malicious, but you do tend to react nicely, and in so doing, provide the cannon fodder, sort of... Just sayin'...

 

[David Ess]

In effect - yes..! They are not being malicious, but you do tend to react nicely, and in so doing, provide the cannon fodder, sort of... Just sayin'...

As I get to recognize those trolls I blow them off.

 

[David Ess]

In effect - yes..! They are not being malicious, but you do tend to react nicely, and in so doing, provide the cannon fodder, sort of... Just sayin'...

On the ...malicious ...point, some are. A while ago they couldnt handlecmy rebutting them, mocking them, so they reported me and had me banned for a month. Thats malicious.

 

[Frosty]

A while ago they couldnt handlecmy rebutting them, mocking them, so they reported me and had me banned for a month.

People should really be more amenable to your mocking them.

 

[David Ess]

People should really be more amenable to your mocking them.

Yes, otherwise theyre hypocrites. They show that they enjoy their trolling, like to dish it out, but cant handle being mocked for it, thus report it, and try to get others censored, banned. Its pathetic. I never report guys for their trolling, do you?