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Old 12-11-2021, 08:26 AM   #81
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I’d argue it’s not preempting the law. The CG gives examples of the minimum needed to prevent discharge and the states codified a particular method that could be considered a higher standard.

Although a navigable waterway, states still have quite a bit of regulating going on. Anchoring laws, license, speed limits, registration, drunk boating, etc. Even if you are “just passing through,” states can require you to register your boat there. They aren’t required to have reciprocal agreements with other states. As a practical matter they do but it’s clear, states not the feds establish how long you are given to just pass through. “Navigable Waterway” isn’t some magic wand that keeps states from regulating waters in their states. Unless it says so somewhere that no one can find, including me.

Edit: I still don’t think it’s entirely open shut but the language of the actual regulation in 33 CFR linked in
post #80 sounds more definitive to me than other citations of “CG examples” of how it is accomplished.
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Old 12-11-2021, 08:39 AM   #82
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NY law has the very same language as TT quoted from VT.

That's what I recall from when I looked 10 years ago. This time I just when looking for the VT law.
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Old 12-11-2021, 08:48 AM   #83
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We are planning on doing the Triangle Loop, leaving around June 20. Chesapeake Bay to Hudson River, NYS Canals to Lake Ontario, Kingston to Ottawa, Montreal and maybe Quebec and then back to Lake Champlain and home. Maybe we'll be bumping into you along the way!

BTW, if you come up the Chesapeake we should try and meet up somewhere.
Let us know if you need any information about Kingston to Ottawa and the 1000 islands it is our stomping ground, we are heading back up to Ottawa in June. a note to all don't plan to be on the Rideau or the 1000 islands in July or august, Over the last couple of years the dynamic has changed considerably It is Nuts We always head west in those months, and after it settles down Mid august we enjoy the Rideau again.
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Old 12-11-2021, 09:06 AM   #84
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No gray is very different than black...
The hose disconnection for black is in the state laws so agree with the conflict between state & fed but only re: black.
I could never find any regulations in either NY or VT that support the myth about gray water.

The VT laws prohibit discharge of pretty much anything into the lake. I think these laws mostly contemplated shore-side civilization, and were intended to prohibit houses with toilets and gray water that dump straight into the lake. I think that is a reasonable and desirable prohibition. Discharge like that was the normal and accepted practice many years ago, including along the ocean. Over the years it was first prohibited in new construction, and eventually made completely illegal forcing upgrades to older homes. I doubt anyone was thinking about boats at the time. Also consider that most boats on Champlain are small day boats. It's even illegal to have a boat as your residence, i.e. liveaboard on the lake. That certainly doesn't contemplate transient cruisers, and technically makes them illegal.


I suspect that like many laws, not all the corner cases were considered or even realized, including the conflict between the discharge laws and federal law. But these aren't the first laws that are themselves illegal, and they won't be the last. But they stand until someone challenges them and gets them invalidated or declared illegal. Now who wants to do that on their summer boating vacation? Not me. So the laws stand.


It's completely anecdotal, but 10 years ago people were reporting getting stopped, inspected, fined, and required to modify their boat before resuming operation. Transients seemed to be targeted.


Today we have reports from a number of people spending a bunch of time on the lake with no issues. As I said earlier, that makes me wonder if the conflict wasn't pointed out enough times that officials stopped enforcing the law.


BTW, I can see such a regulation being reasonable for a boat registered in the state and kept on the lake. That's probably 98% of the boats on the lake. It wouldn't be a hardship because they will never legally use an overboard discharge, so why have one. But it's completely unreasonable to require that a visiting boat be modified to transit or visit that section of federal waterway.
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Old 12-11-2021, 09:17 AM   #85
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It’s not uncommon for state or local governments to enact laws that modify, add to or are stricter than that of the superseding gov’t law. As long as there’s no blanket preemption and the lower government’s law does not conflict with the higher law, there is often no material issue. In this case the CG regulation gives examples such as removing the handle, a lock or a zip tie. VT and NY go further by stating removal of the hose. That requirement doesn’t usurp or conflict with the intent of the federal law. Both are intended to limit overboard discharge. I think removing the hose will be a royal pain and not defending it but, it isn’t necessarily illegal, unless someone can point to the case.

Again, going from memory of past discussions...


- There is language in the federal laws that prohibits restrictions beyond what the clean waters act requires. As I recall, it was Peggy Hall who pointed this out. If the states want more restrictive regulations, their only option is to petition for an NDZ. So a more restrictive law is indeed in conflict with federal law and therefore illegal.


- If the Vermont law accepted a disconnected hose as an ADDITIONAL form of compliance with the NDZ, I think that would be fine. But to require it as the ONLY form of compliance is again in conflict with federal law that lists other acceptable forms of compliance.
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Old 12-11-2021, 09:19 AM   #86
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I could see it being reasonable to require the additional step for boats that are resident on the lake, but as Twistedtree points out, the federal laws are written such that it's theoretically unenforceable for transient boats (if not entirely).
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Old 12-11-2021, 09:26 AM   #87
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As an example, and I'm not an expert and not going to do any more digging, there is a 3 mile limit from the coast for discharge of sewage, but may states impose a NDZ that extends farther than 3 miles.

In this case, an NDZ is a federal law, not a state law. And NDZ gets created in response to a state petition/request, but when approved it is a federal law.


In general I believe it's true that states can enact laws that are more restrictive than federal law. But in the case of the clean waters act and federal waterways, states are specifically prohibited from doing that for federal waterways. Inland lakes - yes. Federal waterways - no.



As a counter example, look at state "licensing" for boaters. As you travel from state to state you are subject to each state's recreational boater education and certification laws.
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Old 12-11-2021, 10:11 AM   #88
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Let us know if you need any information about Kingston to Ottawa and the 1000 islands it is our stomping ground, we are heading back up to Ottawa in June. a note to all don't plan to be on the Rideau or the 1000 islands in July or august, Over the last couple of years the dynamic has changed considerably It is Nuts We always head west in those months, and after it settles down Mid august we enjoy the Rideau again.
That's a great offer. I am a bit familiar with the TI, having gone to college in Potsdam and having a friend in the Thomson family who have businesses in ABay.

Our tentative plan is to cross from Henderson Harbor to Kingston, Ontario around the beginning of July. We will work our way up to Ottawa from Kingston with a planned overnight at the Smith's Falls free dock. We don't have a marina selected in Ottawa as yet, do you have any recommendations?
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Old 12-11-2021, 01:10 PM   #89
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That's a great offer. I am a bit familiar with the TI, having gone to college in Potsdam and having a friend in the Thomson family who have businesses in ABay.

Our tentative plan is to cross from Henderson Harbor to Kingston, Ontario around the beginning of July. We will work our way up to Ottawa from Kingston with a planned overnight at the Smith's Falls free dock. We don't have a marina selected in Ottawa as yet, do you have any recommendations?
Before Ottawa there is Hurst which is quite nice Downtown Ottawa has Hydro all long the canal that will accommodate about 20 boats and then once through the 8 Locks at Ottawa across the river is The Casino De Hull with a great Marina and down the Ottawa River toward Montreal is Montebello that is stunning, if you send me an e-mail I can send you My Route planner for Kingston to Montreal through the Rideau. it has Fuel Hydro Pump out Locales. In Smiths Falls the only accommodation in the main basin is Parks Canada by Permit or Victoria Park that is operated by the town which has power water and Laundry
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Old 12-11-2021, 02:25 PM   #90
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I did a little more research and it appears that although State Laws can pre-empt Federal laws, they are allowed to add more stricter regulations than the Federal law if they see fit. In which case, boaters are to comply with the stricter regulation.



As an example, and I'm not an expert and not going to do any more digging, there is a 3 mile limit from the coast for discharge of sewage, but may states impose a NDZ that extends farther than 3 miles.
Nope, not with respect to navigable waterways.
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Old 12-11-2021, 02:27 PM   #91
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Again, going from memory of past discussions...


- There is language in the federal laws that prohibits restrictions beyond what the clean waters act requires. As I recall, it was Peggy Hall who pointed this out. If the states want more restrictive regulations, their only option is to petition for an NDZ. So a more restrictive law is indeed in conflict with federal law and therefore illegal.


- If the Vermont law accepted a disconnected hose as an ADDITIONAL form of compliance with the NDZ, I think that would be fine. But to require it as the ONLY form of compliance is again in conflict with federal law that lists other acceptable forms of compliance.
Even with an authorized NDZ, all that means is that a boater is prohibited from discharging from, for example, a Raritan Electrosan. It still wouldn't require removing a hose.
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Old 12-11-2021, 05:15 PM   #92
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Even with an authorized NDZ, all that means is that a boater is prohibited from discharging from, for example, a Raritan Electrosan. It still wouldn't require removing a hose.

Exactly.
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Old 12-13-2021, 09:28 AM   #93
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Before Ottawa there is Hurst which is quite nice Downtown Ottawa has Hydro all long the canal that will accommodate about 20 boats and then once through the 8 Locks at Ottawa across the river is The Casino De Hull with a great Marina and down the Ottawa River toward Montreal is Montebello that is stunning, if you send me an e-mail I can send you My Route planner for Kingston to Montreal through the Rideau. it has Fuel Hydro Pump out Locales. In Smiths Falls the only accommodation in the main basin is Parks Canada by Permit or Victoria Park that is operated by the town which has power water and Laundry

Cartouche,
Would be glad to send you my email, but you've blocked PMs. However, you can use windslarry@gmail.com and I'll get it, Thx!
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Old 12-13-2021, 10:50 AM   #94
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I to would appreciate your routing information as I'm doing Quebec city, Montreal , Ottawa ,Rideau this coming summer as well.
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Old 12-13-2021, 06:44 PM   #95
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We stayed in Longueil several years ago with our sailboat and limited power to get into Montreal against the current. The ferry in to the city worked well. Every hour? Also a large shopping mall a good walk away. City would be better if you have the power to push against the 4 to 5 knot current. We watched a sailboat try to make headway for over two hours before he gave up. Paul
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Old 12-13-2021, 07:32 PM   #96
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I to would appreciate your routing information as I'm doing Quebec city, Montreal , Ottawa ,Rideau this coming summer as well.
My email is

Mbevins(at)outlook.com
we are jbilling@cogeco.ca Larry tells me I have clicked something that won't let you contact me I will figure it out for the future send me an e-mail and I will gladly share and help with anything you need for a trip up here. We can help with bookings and availability of Services and if you need to get around we can help with rides etc.
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Old 12-20-2021, 10:39 AM   #97
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We brought our boat up to Lake Champlain in June of this year (2021) from Florida - where it will stay as long as I own it... 17' is the lowest bridge (I think it's C-28). I had to remove my fixed tender davit and my radar which got me down to 16'3". The City of Troy, NY has a new City dock that had pumpout, water, 50A and fuel available. The only issue I had was leaving Whitehall, NY (Whitehall Marina) starting north up Lake Champlain, was shallow water (like 4 feet or less) about 1/2 mile from marina where a creek crosses the narrow part of the lake. I was in the middle of the lake. I ended up favoring the port side to get past this section. I'm in Mallets Bay - Colchester, VT - Champlain Marina. Plenty of Marina's on both the VT and NY side as well as places to anchor out. Someone mentioned Vergennes, VT, and while it's a neat trip up Otter Creek, if the wall is full (there is no reservation system), there is no anchorage-you will have to turn around and head back to the lake - it's about 7.5 miles one way.
You'll enjoy your stay on Lake Champlain. Feel free to look me up if you do make it up here.

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Old 12-21-2021, 04:49 PM   #98
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Smile Photos from lake champlain

This trip is on my short list in a few years once I have a little extra time.

Anyone have any photo's they would like to share?

Happy Holidays folks!

-Sandy
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Old 12-22-2021, 05:33 AM   #99
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This trip is on my short list in a few years once I have a little extra time.

Anyone have any photo's they would like to share?

Happy Holidays folks!

-Sandy



Some random shots from a trip we did in 2016 in our last boat.
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Old 12-22-2021, 06:03 AM   #100
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More random photos, including some of the Hudson River and Champlain Canal
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