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Old 02-10-2018, 12:08 PM   #41
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A starting point might be to look at what power boats make that run on a regular basis. I think the top of the list, considering affordability, would be a Nordhavn 46. They have made that trip and more many times, and can be purchased for $400 to maybe $700k.

There are probably Krogens that have done it, but I expect it's a very short list. Same for Selenes. I honestly don't know about the hat lrc.

From there you get into more one-offs like diesel ducks etc., or larger boats in the 60+ foot range which I'm guessing is more than you want to spend.

I wouldn't even consider a wooden boat, or even any older FRP boat unless it's been proven several times on that run. Too many stories of older boats that seem sound until they get into some serious weather, then they are never heard from again. On a run of that duration, you have to assume you will hit at least one gale.
Thanks. I see the term FRP a lot now. I take it that is just another way of saying "fiberglass". Correct me if I am wrong.
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Old 02-10-2018, 12:11 PM   #42
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Thanks. I see the term FRP a lot now. I take it that is just another way of saying "fiberglass". Correct me if I am wrong.
Fiberglass reinforced plastic
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Old 02-10-2018, 12:23 PM   #43
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For the record Galaxy Girl is still going strong. Just bought a truck so she'll be able to pull an RV. Boat long gone.
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Old 02-10-2018, 12:23 PM   #44
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One word comes to me reading this adventure: respect.
-14C here this morning, so I'm enjoying reading the weekly log with fire crackling and hot coffee in hand
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Old 02-10-2018, 12:25 PM   #45
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For the record Galaxy Girl is still going strong. Just bought a truck so she'll be able to pull an RV. Boat long gone.

Oh! Well that’s cool. I have to give her credit— she’s not scared to get out there and try.
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Old 02-10-2018, 12:35 PM   #46
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Fiberglass reinforced plastic
So that is just another name for regular old "fiberglass" construction, or is it different?
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Old 02-10-2018, 01:13 PM   #47
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Thanks. I see the term FRP a lot now. I take it that is just another way of saying "fiberglass". Correct me if I am wrong.
They say there is no such thing as a stupid question. I don't agree. To me a stupid question is one where the person asking has made no effort to learn or work out the answer themselves before running to ask someone else.

How hard is it to go to google.com and enter "frp"? A lot fewer keystrokes than coming here and constructing a post.

Back to the original question: Buy a copy of Voyaging Under Power (available for $2.49 used, older editions are fine), read it, then come ask the questions it hasn't answered for you.
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Old 02-10-2018, 03:15 PM   #48
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They say there is no such thing as a stupid question. I don't agree. To me a stupid question is one where the person asking has made no effort to learn or work out the answer themselves before running to ask someone else.

How hard is it to go to google.com and enter "frp"? A lot fewer keystrokes than coming here and constructing a post.

Back to the original question: Buy a copy of Voyaging Under Power (available for $2.49 used, older editions are fine), read it, then come ask the questions it hasn't answered for you.
How is the weather way up there on your HIGH HORSE? I already did that, and still was not sure. Another one for the Ignore List.
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Old 02-10-2018, 04:01 PM   #49
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Your reply is arrogant and sanctimonious.
If you can't take it, don't dish it out in the first place. Please plague some other thread.
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Old 02-10-2018, 04:03 PM   #50
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If you can't take it, don't dish it out in the first place. Please plague some other thread.
That wasn't directed at you.
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Old 02-10-2018, 04:08 PM   #51
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-14C here this morning, so I'm enjoying reading the weekly log with fire crackling and hot coffee in hand


This dumpster fire of a thread should keep you nice and warm.
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Old 02-10-2018, 04:14 PM   #52
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That wasn't directed at you.
My most sincere apologies. My mistake.
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Old 02-10-2018, 06:21 PM   #53
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Trip From west coast to Hawaii

The Trip to Hawaii will be a long one. Much easier to go from California to Hawaii & a much tougher & LONGER trip Mileage & time wise to return back to California. So keep that in mind Most general power boats out there are not designed to do this type of ocean crossing trip. That said, I have done that trip both directions a couple times, it is doable, just lots of things to take into consideration. Here are some examples:

please note, once there, do not overlook that there are often shortages of long term quality birthing, season dependent, once you get there. Also, lots of boats there are for sale. I recommend, get your birthing all set up, insurance approved & paid for in advance, all paperwork & such done & marina key in hand & birth assigned, before you leave the mainland. Important if your planning on staying there for over a couple or three months. Just something worth checking into.

Next, - IMHO, it is not really a good cruising area for small boats.
For me, it has usually been a refueling & restocking stop, on the way to elsewhere, at least in my opinion & experience. (I am sure, not everyone agrees with me on that), but that is what I think, & it is just my opinion & is based on my personal experience from being there.

This trip requires good crew, sound boat, good onboard equipment, good weather window & good backup systems & lots of Food, Water & Supplies & spare parts & tools. Of course, the obvious is fuel, as without enough allotted fuel & reserve fuel onboard that is needed for this trip that you must carry with you all from the start, it is a long way to paddle.

IMHO – Other Consideration # 1 - BOAT HULL -- Key is you MUST get a Full Displacement Hull for both sea keeping abilities & fuel consumption & safe fuel endurance range.
I highly recommend that you have stabilization of some type for your safety & fatigue factor. You’re going to hit some bad weather somewhere along the way unless your real lucky. Need a boat that can handle this without any problems. I would not recommend doing this trip unless you have a full displacement hull under you. If your choosing a boat under 60 feet long, Please, save the rescue guys the trouble of looking for you, do not do this trip unless it is on a full displacement design boat.

A semi displacement hull that has no ballast in keel with a high A/B ratio is not the boat to be in, out there. It is your life & your friends & crew’s life. So, that is a very important consideration – please do not overlook this important item.

# 2. - Boat fuel range at sea, fully loaded & in real sea & open ocean conditions - (NOT FLAT WATER FUEL RANGE) at your real cruising speeds of 6 to 7.5 knots - The boats fuel range your looking for is the actual mileage to your destination plus a minimum of additional 20% reserve fuel. Let’s look at this item a little closer.

Quick Question to consider: Are you getting a Twin engine boat or a single engine boat? Fuel range is less with a twin-engine boat in the displacement style boat hulls style design than a single engine is.

So in this case your minimum fuel needs - for this destination - with a 6 knot speed – with a single engine -- means a fuel range of approximately 2800 miles - which is 466 hours multiplied times your fuel burn per engine per hour. WE can estimate it between 3 to 6 GPH.

Your chosen boat from what I have read on-line & what some have for standard fuel tankage will be hard pressed to do that as you need to carry about 1552 gallons of Diesel for a single engine & more if it is equipped with twin engines, figuring that as an estimate, if you can limit fuel burn to 4 GPH on that one engine.

Most of the Kadey-Krogen's in the 42, 48, 54 & 58 sizes will do that trip without a problem. The Nordhavn 40, 43, 46, 47 & 50 are certainly up to the task & will keep you safe. Any of the other good Heavy Duty FD designs like Diesel Duck, etc. with the requisite fuel tankage might be good candidates as well.

One more thing I need to mention, I think 5 knots is a bit slow for the weight of the boat you’re selecting & IMHO, you’re going to need a little more speed to increase your steerage effectiveness, so the rudder of the boat handles as you need it to be. go to slow in the open ocean, and can have issues with rudder effectiveness & auto pilot control at that lower speed for open ocean crossing. I think you will be happier at 6 knots than at the 5 you mentioned.

Speed of 6 knots to 6.8 knots is a good compromise average speed to shoot for with a waterline of about 39 to 45 feet or so.

San Diego, Ca. to Hawaii -- miles about 2330.

Hours on your engine to make that trip non-stop -- minimum of 388 hours. -- That is 16 days plus a 4-day buffer. 388 hours’ minimum of engine running with no shut down of the engine. Plus, what is the oil usage of your engines? So when including the 4 day buffer – 20 days - 480 hours of engine running at sea. Plus how about the Gen-Set fuel ?
NOTE: Also, You Need to be able to change your fuel filters without turning your engine off.

3. - Lots of other considerations: Also food - figure 20 days’ food & snacks & of course drinking water of a minimum 1 gallon & a half, per day, per person, plus 3 meals a day & plus a daily snack per person = 60 + meals + 20 snacks for each crew member - how many going with you - let’s say total of 4 people on trip ? WOW – that is a lot of food. Who is the cook?
So 60 meals per person for 4 crew including you – 240 meals + 80 snacks for the trip minimum. How are you going to keep that food fresh for 3/4 of a month ?

Next is Drinking water. – (Not to be confused with shower & dish washing water) – this is a used unknown boat, new to you – often the water tanks are OK for showers, washing clothes & dishes, etc., but not recommended for drinking.
Bottled drinking water 20 days for 4 people you & crew, @ 1.5 gallons a day person = 120 gallons of bottled drinking water alone.

So you have read the theory – here is an actual example to compare that to.

Here is an actual example of usages of fuel & actual mileage covered for that exact trip in a Nordhavn 62 full displacement boat that recently made that trip just a couple years ago.
Of course, a 62-footer has a longer water line length & can go way faster & get there a couple or three days earlier on same fuel than the boats in the 40 to 50-foot range that you’re looking at.
But still representative example of total fuel consumption for this trip we are discussing & good example to look at & get a ball park idea of fuel needs.
ALSO, I do understand that is a million-dollar boat & probably out of your & my price range – but it is still representative to grasp the total picture.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But just an example.

VOYAGE: To Hawaii from San Diego TOTALS:

Mileage - 2330 nm.

Fuel used - 1721 Gal – Single Main Engine / 144 gal - Generator = 1865 gals total

Hours - 303 (12 days, 15 hours)

Ave Speed - 7.7 kts
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N62 INFINITY ∞


Cost - $ Diesel at $ 3.00 a gallon ? -- $ 5,595.oo fuel costs for the trip.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I hope this helps you look at your planned trip & hope you enjoy planning it.
Good luck.
Thanks.
Alfa Mike
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Old 02-10-2018, 06:34 PM   #54
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Back to the business at hand...
DDs are heavy,noisy, dirty, difficult to troubleshoot and work on, and they use lots of fuel.
If you don’t have a long (pleasant) history with DDs you’ll hate them like I do.
Only guys that grew up with them and understand their eccentricities and quirks speak favorably.
Cummins B and C motors in low output config are my personal favorites, the volume of sales over the years speaks for itself.
I don’t have much experience with the new generation of Tier III diesels, but I would be hesitant to take one on a long voyage far from help.
It is very hard to recommend a motor without knowing what boat it will be in, but for me, yes, a DD is a show stopper.
A low output single engine can be ultra reliable, as long as it is properly installed and maintained, and of course not run on the stops 24/7.
The worlds fishing fleets are overwhelmingly populated with single engine boats that roam the oceans with very few mishaps, especially when compared to the recreational sector!
Re the boat hull shape, picture a wave hitting a vertical sea wall versus a gently sloping beach.
If you want to pursue a real technical discussion of hull shapes, take a look at boatdesign forums, much info already there or post your questions.
It is good that you are seeking information before buying, take the time to educate yourself and you will be able to make an informed decision.
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Old 02-10-2018, 06:46 PM   #55
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.... I've made the round trip twice as a crew member, but want to go as the "skipper". ....
If you've made the trip twice already (even as crew), it would seem you would have more experience at this trip than most of the people you are asking these questions of.
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Old 02-10-2018, 06:59 PM   #56
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Based on the over night decision as to which boat and engines are best, I think we are getting our leg pulled. .
+1
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Old 02-10-2018, 07:03 PM   #57
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West coast to Hawaii is a cakewalk compared to return voyage.
I crewed on returning transpac boats several times, it is a much longer trip, especially in a sailboat specifically designed to race downwind!
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Old 02-10-2018, 08:40 PM   #58
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Back to the business at hand...
DDs are heavy,noisy, dirty, difficult to troubleshoot and work on, and they use lots of fuel.
If you don’t have a long (pleasant) history with DDs you’ll hate them like I do.
Only guys that grew up with them and understand their eccentricities and quirks speak favorably.
Cummins B and C motors in low output config are my personal favorites, the volume of sales over the years speaks for itself.
I don’t have much experience with the new generation of Tier III diesels, but I would be hesitant to take one on a long voyage far from help.
It is very hard to recommend a motor without knowing what boat it will be in, but for me, yes, a DD is a show stopper.
A low output single engine can be ultra reliable, as long as it is properly installed and maintained, and of course not run on the stops 24/7.
The worlds fishing fleets are overwhelmingly populated with single engine boats that roam the oceans with very few mishaps, especially when compared to the recreational sector!
Re the boat hull shape, picture a wave hitting a vertical sea wall versus a gently sloping beach.
If you want to pursue a real technical discussion of hull shapes, take a look at boatdesign forums, much info already there or post your questions.
It is good that you are seeking information before buying, take the time to educate yourself and you will be able to make an informed decision.
Thank you for taking the time and effort to craft such a response as you did. I found it informative and eye-opening. Much obliged.
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Old 02-10-2018, 08:42 PM   #59
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+1
Feel better now?
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Old 02-10-2018, 08:45 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by alfamike View Post
The Trip to Hawaii will be a long one. Much easier to go from California to Hawaii & a much tougher & LONGER trip Mileage & time wise to return back to California. So keep that in mind Most general power boats out there are not designed to do this type of ocean crossing trip. That said, I have done that trip both directions a couple times, it is doable, just lots of things to take into consideration. Here are some examples:

please note, once there, do not overlook that there are often shortages of long term quality birthing, season dependent, once you get there. Also, lots of boats there are for sale. I recommend, get your birthing all set up, insurance approved & paid for in advance, all paperwork & such done & marina key in hand & birth assigned, before you leave the mainland. Important if your planning on staying there for over a couple or three months. Just something worth checking into.

Next, - IMHO, it is not really a good cruising area for small boats.
For me, it has usually been a refueling & restocking stop, on the way to elsewhere, at least in my opinion & experience. (I am sure, not everyone agrees with me on that), but that is what I think, & it is just my opinion & is based on my personal experience from being there.

This trip requires good crew, sound boat, good onboard equipment, good weather window & good backup systems & lots of Food, Water & Supplies & spare parts & tools. Of course, the obvious is fuel, as without enough allotted fuel & reserve fuel onboard that is needed for this trip that you must carry with you all from the start, it is a long way to paddle.

IMHO – Other Consideration # 1 - BOAT HULL -- Key is you MUST get a Full Displacement Hull for both sea keeping abilities & fuel consumption & safe fuel endurance range.
I highly recommend that you have stabilization of some type for your safety & fatigue factor. You’re going to hit some bad weather somewhere along the way unless your real lucky. Need a boat that can handle this without any problems. I would not recommend doing this trip unless you have a full displacement hull under you. If your choosing a boat under 60 feet long, Please, save the rescue guys the trouble of looking for you, do not do this trip unless it is on a full displacement design boat.

A semi displacement hull that has no ballast in keel with a high A/B ratio is not the boat to be in, out there. It is your life & your friends & crew’s life. So, that is a very important consideration – please do not overlook this important item.

# 2. - Boat fuel range at sea, fully loaded & in real sea & open ocean conditions - (NOT FLAT WATER FUEL RANGE) at your real cruising speeds of 6 to 7.5 knots - The boats fuel range your looking for is the actual mileage to your destination plus a minimum of additional 20% reserve fuel. Let’s look at this item a little closer.

Quick Question to consider: Are you getting a Twin engine boat or a single engine boat? Fuel range is less with a twin-engine boat in the displacement style boat hulls style design than a single engine is.

So in this case your minimum fuel needs - for this destination - with a 6 knot speed – with a single engine -- means a fuel range of approximately 2800 miles - which is 466 hours multiplied times your fuel burn per engine per hour. WE can estimate it between 3 to 6 GPH.

Your chosen boat from what I have read on-line & what some have for standard fuel tankage will be hard pressed to do that as you need to carry about 1552 gallons of Diesel for a single engine & more if it is equipped with twin engines, figuring that as an estimate, if you can limit fuel burn to 4 GPH on that one engine.

Most of the Kadey-Krogen's in the 42, 48, 54 & 58 sizes will do that trip without a problem. The Nordhavn 40, 43, 46, 47 & 50 are certainly up to the task & will keep you safe. Any of the other good Heavy Duty FD designs like Diesel Duck, etc. with the requisite fuel tankage might be good candidates as well.

One more thing I need to mention, I think 5 knots is a bit slow for the weight of the boat you’re selecting & IMHO, you’re going to need a little more speed to increase your steerage effectiveness, so the rudder of the boat handles as you need it to be. go to slow in the open ocean, and can have issues with rudder effectiveness & auto pilot control at that lower speed for open ocean crossing. I think you will be happier at 6 knots than at the 5 you mentioned.

Speed of 6 knots to 6.8 knots is a good compromise average speed to shoot for with a waterline of about 39 to 45 feet or so.

San Diego, Ca. to Hawaii -- miles about 2330.

Hours on your engine to make that trip non-stop -- minimum of 388 hours. -- That is 16 days plus a 4-day buffer. 388 hours’ minimum of engine running with no shut down of the engine. Plus, what is the oil usage of your engines? So when including the 4 day buffer – 20 days - 480 hours of engine running at sea. Plus how about the Gen-Set fuel ?
NOTE: Also, You Need to be able to change your fuel filters without turning your engine off.

3. - Lots of other considerations: Also food - figure 20 days’ food & snacks & of course drinking water of a minimum 1 gallon & a half, per day, per person, plus 3 meals a day & plus a daily snack per person = 60 + meals + 20 snacks for each crew member - how many going with you - let’s say total of 4 people on trip ? WOW – that is a lot of food. Who is the cook?
So 60 meals per person for 4 crew including you – 240 meals + 80 snacks for the trip minimum. How are you going to keep that food fresh for 3/4 of a month ?

Next is Drinking water. – (Not to be confused with shower & dish washing water) – this is a used unknown boat, new to you – often the water tanks are OK for showers, washing clothes & dishes, etc., but not recommended for drinking.
Bottled drinking water 20 days for 4 people you & crew, @ 1.5 gallons a day person = 120 gallons of bottled drinking water alone.

So you have read the theory – here is an actual example to compare that to.

Here is an actual example of usages of fuel & actual mileage covered for that exact trip in a Nordhavn 62 full displacement boat that recently made that trip just a couple years ago.
Of course, a 62-footer has a longer water line length & can go way faster & get there a couple or three days earlier on same fuel than the boats in the 40 to 50-foot range that you’re looking at.
But still representative example of total fuel consumption for this trip we are discussing & good example to look at & get a ball park idea of fuel needs.
ALSO, I do understand that is a million-dollar boat & probably out of your & my price range – but it is still representative to grasp the total picture.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But just an example.

VOYAGE: To Hawaii from San Diego TOTALS:

Mileage - 2330 nm.

Fuel used - 1721 Gal – Single Main Engine / 144 gal - Generator = 1865 gals total

Hours - 303 (12 days, 15 hours)

Ave Speed - 7.7 kts
__________________
Andy & Julie Nemier
N62 INFINITY ∞


Cost - $ Diesel at $ 3.00 a gallon ? -- $ 5,595.oo fuel costs for the trip.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I hope this helps you look at your planned trip & hope you enjoy planning it.
Good luck.
Thanks.
Alfa Mike
I don't know where to begin, but by offering thanks for such an effort as to relay the information, opinions and advice above. I will give what you have said great consideration. Thanks again for the effort, time and information.
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