Crossing a bar

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T210DRVR

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2018
Messages
118
Location
USA
Vessel Name
Checkmate
Vessel Make
GB 42
I’ve read about crossing a bar at slack tide and trying to ride the back of a swell coming in. What do you do if you are in a 7 knot trawler and the waves are out running you? I know waiting for a calm period at the bar is the best option, but if you must cross a bar in medium conditions what is the best technique?
 
We’ve done the Washington to Mexico trip twice. The commercial guys always told me to go in on slack or flood only unless you have a good bar report. On the west coast with the prevailing winds on shore, ebb is evil and flood is fine. :)
 
Sorry, I didn’t answer your question. Stay perpendicular to the swell and watch the sets. The large swells come in series usually. Watch for awhile, then go for it and don’t be afraid to use the throttle.
 
I’ve read about crossing a bar at slack tide and trying to ride the back of a swell coming in. What do you do if you are in a 7 knot trawler and the waves are out running you? I know waiting for a calm period at the bar is the best option, but if you must cross a bar in medium conditions what is the best technique?
Almost all pacific swells are large enough to outpace a 7-kt boat. When swells exceed about 5-6 feet, things get a bit busy in the wheelhouse. Even with a slack or flood tide (which is pretty common) . Wait and try to figure out the best possible set of waves just a surfer does - every 5th or so. Have a spare set of eyes on the bridge to keep an eye on range markers/lights so you can concentrate on keeping the boat on her feet - she'll move in X, Y, and Z planes equally well on her way in. The boat will corkscrew a lot as swells lift the stern. Try not to over steer as she will find her footing once the swell passes. Stay calm and find the rhythm.

If you are jammed up, coasties will escort you in. But best not to get jammed up and find yourself having to come in.
 
The number one lesson I have learned:

Never ever, never, never ever cross the bar on an ebb tide.

Yes once in a while the bar is smooth at ebb, but not much.

Not sure? Call the USCG.
 
I have a 7knotter and although not the swells we have to deal with I figured out years ago to slow down to let the waves lift you but NOT push you. If youk are to close to the wave speed the wave will push you . By running more slowly the wave will lift you but not push you nearly as much.

You still need to be on the wheel and fast. I set my adjustable hydraulic steering pump up to minimum wheel turns for fastest response.
I also use the throttle if the boat is not responding adequately to the rudder. A short fast blip on the throttle will shoot a lot of water past the rudder smartening the response up , a lot.

Just a short, fast shot. You do not want any more boat speed from it. As it smartens up get off the throttle back to where you were.

By no means though am I a bar expert. Just been out a few times, too many, in stuff I should not have been out in.

However I will agree you do not want an ebb current against a wind driven wave . They will increase in size and steepness hugely.
 
C electric gave great advice on running in at moderate speed. Another way to think about it is if you're already at full speed you have only one option. Also try your autopilot but be ready to quickly disengage and steer by hand. On some boats the auto pilot will do a better job steering in demanding conditions than the human. Freeing up the human to make the decisions about course and speed.

You asked specifically about techniques to handle the seas. I'd like to talk about bar crossings in slow boats in general.

Expanding on others advise it isn't slack tide specifically you want. It's the window from slack before the flood to well before the slack before the ebb. By well before I mean enough time to fully clear the bar before ebb current starts.

The hazardous conditions often extend far beyond the bar on the ebb. Sometimes miles out to sea. This shortens your window.

When the seas are up I aim for about half way between slacks on the flood.

At the risk of insulting your experience I'll make two final points. 1 make sure your fuel filters are in good shape. I've seen boats loose power crossing hazardous bars. It doesn't go well for therm. 2 Don't mistake low tide predictions for slack tide predictions. I've known experienced boaters to make this mistake.

This advice is based on hundreds of PNW bar crossings in slow boats.
 
Be aware that low current and slack tide are not necessarily at the same time. Depending on geography, they may be hours apart. So look at BOTH. Atlantic inlets, with a lot of water inside the inlet will flow out for quite a while after ebb tide. If this flow opposes the onshore wind it gets sporting. So again, look at wind, tide and current. Figure out what would appease the gods the best.
 
I often cross bars here on the Atlantic coast. Not as big of seas, but the water is shallower. Not as spectacular as the inlets on the Pac coast, but just as easy to get in big trouble.

I always try to shoot for near high tide on the flood. The current hear lags the ocean tide by about an hour, so if I time it for high tide, that is the best. Current will still be going into the inlet and it is deeper too.

Rough offshore and an ebb, forget it. We call it a "whitewall". Breaking surf from beach to beach across the inlet. Can't visually read the depth. Fortunately we have a maintained inlet that only adds another 10 miles to a trip, so if it is snotty, I go there.

And each boat has a personality in following steep seas. What works for my boat might not work for others.

I try to get my bow on the back of an advancing wave, hopefully picked a bigger one in the set. But you have to keep an eye behind you as if there is a large wave behind you, the bigger ones travel faster than the smaller ones and it can catch you!
 
Waves that are cresting are different than ones in shallows and curling....try to find out if there is any curlers and avoid those shallows.

Always better to use the words "tide" ( vertical movement) and "current" ( horizontal movement)...tidal current if it is tidal and not just river/stream current related.

I too agree that trying to ride a wave unless on a very fast/powerful boat can be tricky....best to stay at a comfy speed and have throttle to try and straighten when necessary.

Towing across breaking inlets taught me a lot about sheer luck sculpted by some technique. Without a heavy weather boat.....its always a gamble if you hit breaking swells taller than 1/4 the length of your boat. If they get so steep to be curling.....hard to say how dangerous they are based on the possibility of swamping a cockpit, etc.

The best advice is dont get caught out and can't get in due to bar conditions.
 
Be aware that low current and slack tide are not necessarily at the same time.


Not quite sure what you mean by this. As far as I know, slack water is defined by lowest current. While I have no experience on the Columbia I can offer some information on the Fraser River. The timing of slack water varies considerably with:

1) the magnitude of the difference in tidal heights,

2) the magnitude of the river run off.

Forget about any rule of thumb. They don’t exist. If 1) is a small number and 2) is large, there will be no slack water and the river will continually ebb. At other times the river can have a “back up”, i.e. the current can go upstream.

If I can, I time my run up the Fraser River 3-4 hours after low water. Sometimes I don’t always have that opportunity, but it makes a big difference going up the river at 7.5 knots rather than 2 knots.

The Columbia and the Fraser are very different situations. The Columbia flows into the open ocean, there is a significant bar but it is dammed, so there is some dampening of the outflows. I’ve seen the videos of crossing the Columbia bar. It’s pretty impressive! The Fraser on the other hand does not have a significant bar, but the freshet can be considerable and if there is a swell against tide, entering the river can be hairy at times.

The best advice I can give is get as much local knowledge as you can and that knowledge should be specific for the “current state” of the river and weather conditions.

Jim
 
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Is an escort any help or is it just nice to have them there in case it goes horribly wrong ?
I only had an escort once. I didn't ask for it, but was heavy fog coming into Yaquina OR. I was promptly boarded and inspected by a very polite crew of young coasties who eagerly accepted my offer of brownies we'd made that morning. It was a training gig for them.

Someone on this forum posted recently that they were escorted into one of the Oregon harbors. USCG offered and they accepted. Sounded like they really appreciated the assistance.

Overall, the ports are primarily commercial fishing ports mixed with recreational fishing and some plain recreational boats. The USCG and harbor masters are all business and keep very prepared and ready to help mariners 24/7. As you can imagine, they are incredibly well trained and ready to respond. Asking for help will be met with professionalism.
 
The USCG boats.can point you to the least breaking section (they just came through it)...and they can use their boats to help break off the tops of the waves behind you to lessen the chances of you broaching.
 
Interesting USCG Notice to Mariners (2015) on the OR/WA bars in link below.

By far, the craziest bar on the west coast is Depoe Bay OR. Also below is a video of two USCG MLBs coming in - notice how the lead one is waiting for the right set, then see the black exhaust smoke when the helmsman punches it. According the notice to mariners below, this channel was recently widened from 35-feet to 50-feet.

https://www.pacificarea.uscg.mil/Po..._Hazardous_Bars.pdf?ver=2017-06-20-135950-980

 
We crossed a bar in El Salvador which we wouldn't have without local knowledge. Two guys on a jet ski with a handheld VHF talked us in. They told us when to go and on which set. You could only cross at high slack. The goal was to not get overtaken or overtake a breaker. If you look at right side of the bow in the picture, you can see a breaking wave behind us. We hit 10 plus knots on the ride in.

One of our trips down the WA, OR, CA coast had multiple bar closures. The USCG said no one in or out. We always called for a bar report and they were happy to give it. We always planned our departure and arrival times based on the bar, tides and weather.
 

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Larry - are your paravanes fish down, or just outriggers set?

I'm sure you've told the story a million times on this forum, but I'm a newcomer to the forum (not to passagemaking). Your description states you circumnavigated. How much in your KK42?

Looks like a beautiful day on the pacific in the Pic.
 
Larry - are your paravanes fish down, or just outriggers set?

Just the poles out.

I'm sure you've told the story a million times on this forum, but I'm a newcomer to the forum (not to passagemaking). Your description states you circumnavigated. How much in your KK42?

Alaska to Trinidad on Hobo via the Canal - Alaska to Trinidad on our sailboat via the Pacific, Indian and Atlantic Oceans.

Looks like a beautiful day on the pacific in the Pic.

It was. :)

...
 
Interesting USCG Notice to Mariners (2015) on the OR/WA bars in link below.

By far, the craziest bar on the west coast is Depoe Bay OR. Also below is a video of two USCG MLBs coming in - notice how the lead one is waiting for the right set, then see the black exhaust smoke when the helmsman punches it. According the notice to mariners below, this channel was recently widened from 35-feet to 50-feet.


That looks like a whole barrel of nope. Having to run a boat up on plane in a space that narrow would already have me doing a bit of :eek: and that's before adding those waves into the mix.
 
On the Pacific Coast, you want to avoid conditions where you have strong winds blowing against a strong ebb tide. The combination makes huge waves close together. Even a wide opening like SF creates the big waves. Coming out of Frisco, in my 55' fishing boat, near Mile Rocks, I encountered a series of about 3 waves really tall and close together. At slow speed the boat shot out of the wave top and buried the bow into the trough with the next wave top breaking somewhere over the flying bridge. Nothing but clear green water thru the wheel house windows. Props came out of the water.

I've been across most of the bars on the Pacific side many times. After my trip off Frisco, I always plan for slack water, high tide. In decent ocean conditions the bars are never a problem at that time. In good ocean conditions the bars can be crossed anytime.
One issue with crossing at low tide is the height of the swells. The trough might be several feet shallower than the charted depth. Coming in, if your bow touches the bottom it stops the boat and the swell can pitch pole the boat. Going out if you touch, the next wave will break over most of the boat and push you near the bottom. And then there's usually prop damage, too.
 
Good thread. We don't have bar issues like the PNW, but there are a few entrances that get a bit dicey. I have seen 10 ft. plus foot curlers across the entrance of Mission Bay in the Winter (not on the boat, just watching from the entrance in my kayak). Our previous boats were go fast express cruisers so I could zip along and match wave speeds. I am still learning the go slower trawler thing and have played around with different speeds and techniques as described by others. In general, I try to stay away when its > 5ft. swell height. Staying in port and not pushing my luck will be a lot easier when I retire in a few weeks.
 
I have a drogue I set and tow behind that holds the boat perpendicular to the swell as my boat will only do 6kts which won't outrun anything. It's also a double ender and that makes a lot of difference.
 
Get local knowledge first. Enter near the top of the tide on the last of the run-in.
Don't be panicked into going fast in a displacement boat. Go as slow as will give you steerage. If a wave crests behind you, don't be afraid of putting her in reverse for a few seconds. The problem wave will pass you as you hang on your prop. Has worked well for me in quite challenging conditions.
 
I try to adhere to a great truism, though I don't really match the first part of it myself.

"The sign of a captain with superior seamanship skills is that he first avoids putting himself in a position where has to use them" .
 
Good thread. We don't have bar issues like the PNW, but there are a few entrances that get a bit dicey. I have seen 10 ft. plus foot curlers across the entrance of Mission Bay (San Diego) in the Winter (not on the boat, just watching from the entrance in my kayak).

I'm sure the East Coast folks read threads like these (including "Graveyard" monikers for Columbia River) and think it's just awful out on the Pacific Coast.

After a lot of years delivering along the Pacific Coast, much of the reason these stories are perpetuated is fear. Yes, ocean conditions require more skill, prep, and judgement than protected waters. And yes, certain areas are more prone to severe conditions than other places. But that doesn't mean those places are always awful - just means they will be worse than the surrounding area. On the West Coast, recreational boaters have many options to avoid Pt Conception, Columbia River, and going outside the Golden Gate Bridge (collectively, Rubicons of fear that keep many boaters inside the protected confines of their home waters). Except for fishermen, there's often little reason to venture out anyway. For example, SF Bay has great sailing, why bother heading outside the GG Bridge?

I know many will disagree, but in my opinion, bar crossings need to be understood, not feared. Threads like this describe very brief periods during any given day when they can be safely crossed. Except for days of above average conditions (king tides or storms for example), the truth is the reverse: the times when crossing should be avoided are fairly brief.

Crossing a bar (or, for you folks on the East Coast, an Inlet), is not a one size fits all affair. For example, on another thread, someone was sharing their planned trip from Neah Bay to the Columbia River. Conventional wisdom says "Never enter on an ebb." That's because the prevailing winds are from the NW, so the waves would stack-up. But the weather conditions forecast were for winds from the east. Conventional wisdom would be wrong, or at least should be considered (the easterlies were not strong, and I'd take the push from the flood current anyway).

Threads like this highlight important parts of seamanship skills - making safe decisions based on the environment, the boat, the captain, and the passengers. It's often a balance. Crossing a bar on a weak ebb in fair conditions may be much, much safer than taking heroic measures to time an entrance high/slack current (which may be at peak afternoon winds). Point being that you have to balance what's in front of you. There are some bars I wouldn't cross under perfect conditions (Depoe Bay OR). There are other bars I wouldn't hesitate to cross except under worse-than-average conditions (SF Bay, though ebb current can reach 6-kts so speed would be a consideration).

For those on the West Coast who, like I used to think, believe East Coast has it easy, take a look at the following YouTube. I guess Haulover Inlet is near Miami, and is super popular. Except for places like the Chesapeake, boating in many areas of the East Coast often mean heading through an inlet unless you want a linear AICW trip. Granted, a 35-foot Contender with quad 350's is designed for this type of work, but they do encounter similar conditions as West Coast folks do when crossing a bar/inlet.

 
Mvweebles,

You make great points, it is indeed all about seamanship, knowledge, especially local knowledge and judgement. Bars and other hazards should not be feared in the sense of crippling fear that keeps you tied to the dock. But in the sense of respect for what can go wrong if you don't get it right.

I admit to being one who harps on not crossing hazardous bars or inlets on ebb tides. I will also admit to crossing on ebb tides, crossing with on shore winds, crossing in unsettled weather and running the bars at night. But that is with decades of experience and considerable local knowledge. When an OP asks for general advice it is reasonable to assume a lack of knowledge which implies a lower level of experience based skill and local knowledge. To those persons my advice will always default to the one size fits all and say avoid crossing on an ebb tide.

That mariner, crossing on flood tides in benign weather the first few times will gain confidence and experience and be able to extend the 'window' they can safely use.
 
Get local knowledge first. Enter near the top of the tide on the last of the run-in.
Don't be panicked into going fast in a displacement boat. Go as slow as will give you steerage. If a wave crests behind you, don't be afraid of putting her in reverse for a few seconds. The problem wave will pass you as you hang on your prop. Has worked well for me in quite challenging conditions.

Excellent points about local knowledge and no panic needed to run a bar in a slow boat.

However I do disagree with
Enter near the top of the tide on the last of the run-in.
On a slow (trawler speed) boat making a long run to a potentially hazardous crossing I aim for the slack before the flood. My reasoning is that I consider anytime on the flood to be favorable conditions and that gives me a bigger 'window'. If I'm running late because I didn't make my planned SOG and I'm aiming for the last of the flood I may miss it. I've never made a long coastal run and been early. The caveat is that if the trough of the swell will make the crossing too shallow early in the flood then aim for much later in the flood. Generally not an issue with PNW bars (the OP is a US West coaster) as they are deep enough or dredged for commercial traffic and or heavy deep fishing vessels.

And I want to ask you about this part
If a wave crests behind you, don't be afraid of putting her in reverse for a few seconds. The problem wave will pass you as you hang on your prop. Has worked well for me in quite challenging conditions.
Would that be in a Diesel Duck with a steel aft end fairly high off the water? Wouldn't it be a very different thing for a boat with a low transom, a big cockpit, read large area to hold lots of water, with non water tight hatches leading below and possibly sliding glass doors to the saloon?
 
Mvweebles,

You make great points, it is indeed all about seamanship, knowledge, especially local knowledge and judgement. Bars and other hazards should not be feared in the sense of crippling fear that keeps you tied to the dock. But in the sense of respect for what can go wrong if you don't get it right.

I admit to being one who harps on not crossing hazardous bars or inlets on ebb tides. I will also admit to crossing on ebb tides, crossing with on shore winds, crossing in unsettled weather and running the bars at night. But that is with decades of experience and considerable local knowledge. When an OP asks for general advice it is reasonable to assume a lack of knowledge which implies a lower level of experience based skill and local knowledge. To those persons my advice will always default to the one size fits all and say avoid crossing on an ebb tide.

That mariner, crossing on flood tides in benign weather the first few times will gain confidence and experience and be able to extend the 'window' they can safely use.

I do not disagree with anything you've said. But I will pause and say that thread has over 1k views, undoubtedly of folks of all different skill levels. PB - you are an experienced West Coast boater, so you know how much fear/myth there is around certain milestones like Pt Conception, Golden Gate Bridge, Columbia River, etc. I picked up boating as a young adult - my dad was first generation Italian from Newark NJ and couldn't change a lightbulb without cross-threading it so he certainly wasn't my boating role model. Consequently, I remember doing all these things (and more) out of curiosity and adventure. Had the Internet been around back then, I would have read threads like these where, on many occasions, guidance is portrayed as fact/rule in a way that it seems like I'd die a horrible death if I didn't follow it perfectly. We all know it's often just hyperbole (sadly, and I say this as an ex-delivery skipper, many delivery captains perpetuate the awful conditions).

These are teachable moments. I just wish the posts had less chest-thumping with with guidance of "Never do XXXX" or "Always do YYY." Rather than skipping to the answer - which is not helpful even if it were right, a better approach would be "Worst case scenario is a strong current against a strong wind. Avoid that like the plague (or Coronovirus, the modern equiv). On the West Coast, that's normally max ebb against afternoon winds, which is maginified by winter tides and storms. But you have to read your charts, read the conditions, read the weather, and understand what's in front of you. Some bars are wide, expansive, and dredged. San Francisco, Columbia River, Newport OR, and others so take much worse conditions before they become unpassable so you have to make a judgement call. Until you've done it a couple times, you probably want to maximize your chance of success by timing your arrival to coincide with high slack-water. I have crossed bars for a number of years. Here is how I decide whether it's safe for me to vary from the base rule of hi-slack/slight flood with moderate wind.........." You get the idea. Even though I feel like I have above average experience (only above average - most of my deliveries were non-stop so I crossed relatively few bars, and a few West Coast bars - Depoe Bay - scared the s#@t out of me so I wouldn't touch them), there's a good chance I'd learn from experiences stated like this.

I'll also add that boaters on the West Coast have fewer opportunities to get into the ocean than East Coast boaters, so there is more curiosity and fear on the West Coast.
 
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Don't be panicked into going fast in a displacement boat. Go as slow as will give you steerage. If a wave crests behind you, don't be afraid of putting her in reverse for a few seconds. The problem wave will pass you as you hang on your prop. Has worked well for me in quite challenging conditions.

I agree that over-steering and over-correcting is a problem. Boats are amazing at simply regaining their footing on their own.

As far as putting the gear in reverse, never done it and seems counter intuitive to me as keeping water flow across the rudder is a good thing. That said, this short YouTube shows it being done very effectively by a charter captain coming into Depoe Bay OR.

 

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