cost of boat interior

[Bill Streever]

Here's the situation: I am interested at least tentatively in a trawler with an unfinished interior. The boat has a motor, gen set, helm, thruster, windless, wiring, etc., but the interior was never finished. Before taking my interest any further, I wonder if it is possible to suggest a ballpark range for the cost of having the interior finished by a professional yard--just a ballpark range.

More details: 1. My wife and I are believers in simplicity in our boats. We would not want marine air cons, second helm station, two heads, etc. (We are coming from the sailing fleet, where simplicity is more common than it is on trawlers, for obvious reasons.). 2. The boat is 45 feet long. As we see it, we would want an island berth in the main cabin, a head with separate shower, a simple galley (propane stove and oven, 12-volt apartment size fridge), etc. 3. We are interested in a reasonably high end finish, comparable to that seen for example in Grand Banks. Although I know many motor yachts (especially in Europe, and especially on some of the narrow boats, etc.) are finished to fairly crude interior standards, which we could do ourselves, but if we can afford it we are looking for a higher standard, comparable to something like that seen in Grand Banks, etc.

So, I know that the answer will be "it depends." But is it possible to give a range of costs for this kind of work if done on the US east coast? For example, is this a $50-100k project, or a $100-150k project, etc.

Thanks for any insights.

 

[slowgoesit]

I'd think you're more in the $150k to $300k range for a true professional to do it. High end finishes, and per modern ABYC accepted standards

 

[Jeff F]

It's a neat idea. Grand Banks quality seems like a very high bar. Cheaper to buy a GB. But maybe you want a one-of-a-kind.

Was the boat ever used? Little things add up really fast, especially if paying others.

 

[Comodave]

Welcome aboard. Whatever you estimate it will cost, in the end it will be waaay more than the estimates. This is the type of project that can spiral out of control. It could easily go to $300K if you have it done at $100+ per hour for labor. Check out Weebles refit project thread on work in Mexico.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greeting$,
Welcome aboard. Hoo boy! That'$ an open ended que$tion right there.

Even IF you could finish the vessel to minimalist standards for $150K you would end up with one of a kind boat that you may have extreme difficulty selling at ANY time for pennies on the dollar.

Again IF...Are you prepared to lose that $150K+?

 

[mvweebles]

.... Check out Weebles refit project thread on work in Mexico.

Indeed.......

A few thoughts - and I don't make these flippantly.

First, let me be clear and unequvicol: Don't do it.


EDIT: Finding a boat that needs work or completion is easy. Finding the right folks to do the work economically, competently, and with integrity is extremely difficult. OP: You are approaching this from the wrong direction.

Carry-on. Here's the rest of my long post....

Here's why:

1. Projects like these are at extreme risk of being runaway projects, meaning you cannot get out of them without walking away entirely. It's extremely high risk.
2. The oft-repeated axioms of "double any budget" is likely an understatement. I don't care who makes the estimate. It simply is not possible to contemplate everything.
3. The chance of recovering a reasonable percentage of your cost at resale is zero. Notice I did not say recover your cost, I said a reasonable percentage thereof.
4. If this is not a name brand boat, you will have a difficult time selling it. I don't care how nice it is.
5. You are committing well over a year of your life to having a boat on the hard - unusable.
6. Finally, and I am convinced of this, the most ecomical way to buy a boat is to find a well cared for example of a sought after boat and keep it nice. For example, Nordhavn, Nordic Tugs, and Mainships all have devoted followings. Let's look at an expensive example - a Nordhavn 43. So you buy it for $750k in sail-away condition. Use it for 5-years, put $50k into various upgrades and periodic maintenance, and sell it for $725k - clear $650k after transaction costs. Versus buying an unfinished hull for $50k, sinking $200k and a year of time into it, and selling it at the end of 5-years for $100k minus $50k in holding/transaction cost.

So why did I do it; and would I do it again? I did it because I owned the boat for 25-years and Weebles is part of my history, of my history with my wife - we fell in love on Weebles so it is our history. As an example, when I was young and making $10/hour, my beloved dog Bruno had an abdominal cyst. Surgery was $1250 - more than I had by a long shot. Was it smart to spend that much money on pet that I could replace for $200? Hell no! Was it worth spending that much money on my best friend who had slept at the foot of my bed for 7-years, who rode in the back of my orange 1974 VW Westfalia for 1000's of miles as we ambled through the intermountain west? Of course.

I also need to add that I own a slip and a 36-footer is the absolute largest I can shoe-horn in. Period. Not 36'1". Not even sure I could shoe-horn in a regular transom 36-footer like a Monk 36.

I'm not a neophyte when it comes to boats. And I still got snookered by an incompetent marine company. Wasted a ton of time and money.

So you want a number?? Your profile lists Alaska and Puerto Penasco MX (south of Nogales AZ). If you find the right yard in San Carlos, you can likely have a serviceable interior for somewhere under $100k. It will NOT be GB level craftsmanship, but it will be better than DIY-finished sailboats of the 1970's. Large yards have a production line and fully equipped shops with laborers that have become skilled in their ways over the years. You will not find that in Mexico, and not too many places outside of some specialized boating centers that will cost you plenty.

I didn't answer my own question: Would I do it again? Yea, I would......but only because I found the right guys (Guillermo and team at La Costa Boatworks, Ensenada). I give the workmanship a solid 6-7 out of 10 (GB is probably an 8). The guys who I fired started as a 5 and I thought they'd grow into the work but they backslid to a 2 at best. I don't know if it was incompetence or dishonesty, probably a bit of both. Certainly integrity issues at the end.

So now that I've written a long treatise on this, I think I have come to the indisputable truth: the boat is not what will determine success or failure, happiness or frustration. The people who will do the work will be key. Find the right team, and everything else will work out (well.....the budget will still hemmorage). Without the right team, without a trusting relationship, there is zero chance it will work no matter how much money you have to spend. And oh-by-the-way: you need a team. Not a guy, you need a small team at least.

Good luck

Peter

PS - professionally done video of a $3m restoration of a Herreschoff sailboat; one of several one-design sailboats for the NY Yacht Club from the 1920s.

 

[Comodave]

Peter, I am still amazed that you have owned the same boat for 25+ years…

 

[mvweebles]

Peter, I am still amazed that you have owned the same boat for 25+ years…

It's the curved corner windows, round butt, and stepped sheer from Wm Garden's drafting board. Some guys like blondes. What can I say?

Attached pic is from 3+ years ago on her way from San Francisco to Ensenada; a 500nm run over 74 hours. Great pleasure breathing another 50-years of life into this Garden classic.

Peter

 

[Jeff F]

Great pleasure breathing another 50-years of life into this Garden classic.

You're making a meaningful contribution to the boating community. If you've got the time and money to make it happen it's well spent.

I've always been a butt guy. Show me 100 pics, the ones I care about are the stern views. Weebles gets top marks.

 

[ranger58sb]

So, I know that the answer will be "it depends." But is it possible to give a range of costs for this kind of work if done on the US east coast? For example, is this a $50-100k project, or a $100-150k project, etc.

What Peter said.

I have no clue about costs... but I do know the major production builders are starting with a full staff, including the design team and all the installers... and most of the interior joinery and cabinetry and so forth for a given model is "mass" (sorta) produced offline and then fitted in like a jigsaw puzzle.

After all the systems and associated wiring and plumbing are in place. Wiring, for example, also using pre-made harnesses for layout throughout the physical spaces and for final connection to various systems at the ends. Plumbing, ditto.

All of that is much different from what you are considering. Possibly a $$$ difference of 2x or even 3x versus a one-off custom installation.

On the east coast, I guess I could consider taking the hull to somebody like Hinckley and expecting eventual success. Big buck$$$.

-Chris

 

[Pete Meisinger]

Here is a pretty simple formula for you to try.

Find the cost of a brand new 45 foot boat from a yard known for quality.

Subtract what you paid for the hull and engines, etc.

Double the difference. (sorry)

Here is another idea.

Find a new or used 45 foot boat that has everything in place ready to go. Ask the owner or broker the asking price, go to a bank and get a loan for that amount and buy the boat.

pete

 

[psneeld]

There are high end boats that have Formica over ply and less expensive boats with stone or stone finished countertops.

Some mimic workboats with really good taste and some use expensive materials and look like a New York modern apartment.

Huge difference one way in terms of materials, the other could be in craftsmanship.

So depending on the finished look you want, you can pick the simplistic interior with less than top notch craftmanship to keep costs to the minimum yet still be an attractive, solid vessel.

Estimates? All over the map in location and timing...... pick a look and have different yards give you rough estimates.

 

[Mako]

Bill, sounds like most of the work you require is just carpentry. Forget the boatyards and hire a carpenter. It doesn't matter if he's working on a boat, a house, a basement, or a railroad car. He will take measurements, template, prefab back in his shop, then assemble on your boat.

Then you hire marine specialists when required, like for electrical.

If you hire a professional carpentry shop on the East Coast then you'll likely be overcharged. If you hire a professional boatyard, they will drive you into bankruptcy. Do you know what the word "screwed" means????

 

[Lostsailor13]

Plus all the little custom add ons after the fact

 

[Hippocampus]

I bought a one off designed and used for one single handed transatlantic race then left on the hard for several years. The rigging, suite of sails, mast, deck hardware were outstanding but the interior was a single pipe berth on either side, a rudimentary galley, a fancy bucket and the needed structural bulkheads. I bought it from the English owner for very short money. Although built in south hants England the design was from Sparkmans and Stevens. They had developed that hull as a performance cruiser so plans and specs were available for an interior . Often not considered is the many irregular curves and angles in a boats interior. It a big job cutting the outsides of furniture and various fittings so they match the interior of the hull or added mounting points. You don’t just take a measurement or two then cut. We even made mockups in some places. Also getting decent ergonomics isn’t trivial as is allowing for access to permit servicing.
In short found it’s worth every penny to look if the hull you’re thinking of was ever put into series production. If the interior plans are available they would be a god send. If not both for budgeting and to allow a decent job to be done I would hire a NA to draw up your plans and help spec the boat.
Although expense was a major concern for us the more important concern was man hours. There’s some things you won’t want to do yourself (engine mounts, shaft alignment and such) but as time goes by you find other things are so time consuming you end up trading time for dollars. We started figuring we could do the vast majority of the work ourselves as I have a background in making furniture. That wasn’t true being a shipwright is a different skill set and mistakes are very expensive and time consuming. Was able to use a shipwright to do the rough and us to do the finish. Still after 1 1/2 y lamented it would never get done. Went halvies with a friend and dropped the bucks to finish the job.
You ask about budget. That’s a very variable number for any such project.
What information is available for this hull?
How fast do you want this done?
Where are you doing this project?
How much of this are you going to do yourself?
Do you have friends skilled in the needed trades who can guide you or even help when needed? Loan you tools you don’t have?
I was lucky in having friends in the industry, access to a heated shed with electricity and access to cheap (abet unskilled) labor. Just moving materials often requires several hands.
I did sell the boat for more money than I put in to her. But if i charged myself even just minimum wage I would have been well underwater.
Peter’s advice is spot on. Personally wouldn’t do this unless I was a pro working this boat as a sideline when the day job wasn’t busy. Read Peter’s thread his experience is a labor of love.
They say there’s people who build boats and people who sail them. Very,very few do both.

 

[Hippocampus]

“Just carpentry “ makes me smile. Finish carpenters are just as expensive as yard workers. Good finish carpenters are artists Good ones are just as hard to find as good shipwrights. Peter is spot on with this. Things like what glues to use, what woods/laminates/ plywood to use, what fasteners, sealing, considerations for swell and wood movement make a difference in whether it’s durable or looks like junk a few years out. It would be a rare house carpenter who would have the knowledge and skills to do top notch job. You can bet both would “go back to shop”. Agree forget large chain boatyards with a rare exception but a small mom and pop yard or a heated shed near the shop of a shipwright maybe a cost savings.

 

[Jeff F]

Just carpentry makes me smile. Finish carpenters are just as expensive as yard workers. Good ones are just as hard to find as good shipwrights. Things like what glues to use, what woods/laminates/ plywood to use, what fasteners, sealing, considerations for swell and wood movement make a difference in whether it’s durable or looks like junk a few years out. It would be a rare house carpenter who would have the knowledge and skills to do top notch job.

I have a distant cousin who lives in Maine not far from Sabre Yachts and does contract finish carpentry, mostly on custom large home builds. A real craftsman.

I've asked him a couple of times about custom boat work, or maybe working at Sabre for a change of scene. No interest. From his POV home owners are appreciative and happy to pay, while boat owners are whiny and cheap.

I thought there might be some crossover between marine and the rest of the world, but I don't see it very often. Too bad IMO.

 

[jungpeter]

Indeed.......

A few thoughts - and I don't make these flippantly.

First, let me be clear and unequvicol: Don't do it.


EDIT: Finding a boat that needs work or completion is easy. Finding the right folks to do the work economically, competently, and with integrity is extremely difficult. OP: You are approaching this from the wrong direction.

Hi Bill Streever,

mvweebles is absolutely, unequivocally right on. Any notion that the work you propose is "just carpentry" is ludicrous. And, to find a yard ANYWHERE, much less on the east coast of CONUS to accomplish what you propose will be, as mvweebles has stated, extremely difficult. And unmeasurably expensive. Given this will be a one-off, any cost estimate you are given, either by throwing out some number via this forum, or from a competent boatwright and/or boat builder/yard will likely be overrun by multiples of the estimate within a very short period of time.

Run, Forrest, run. And take another fork in the road.

Regards,

Pete

 

[Delta Riverat]

I agree. Anything other than a houseboat (the square box style) is going to have nothing but curves and angles everywhere. Every single board will need custom fitting and adjustments.

It will be hard to find people with those skills and if you do it will be really expensive.

 

[Jeff F]

You have a bit of defense against that if you aren't trying to maximize available space.

My trawler is an old work boat with a custom interior. Didn't do it myself. It's quite nicely done, but was made far easier by avoiding a lot of custom curves and angles. So I have lots of unfinished storage space and perhaps sub optimal use of available square footage. Maybe that's OK for some. OTOH I have lots of space and easy access for tanks and machinery. It's a plus for me.

Agree on comments about resale. I'm the third or fourth owner since conversion, and certainly the first and prior owner took a bath. I bought it cheap enough that I'm not particularly concerned with resale. Boat suits my needs pretty well.

Not really applicable for the OP, but a bit of perspective.

 

[Jeff F]

When the OP mentioned Grand Banks my thought immediately went to their beautiful floors. I've got custom carpet on top of military grade non-slip. Doesn't bother me, and I'm not afraid of wear and tear. Again, maybe a plus in my case.

 

[Hippocampus]

We went to Amtico to replace carpet. Didn’t use teak due to maintenance and possibility of dings. Had teak and holly on prior boats and like it the best. But it’s now all verneers so can limited as to how many standings and refinishings. Friend sold a perfect Valiant 42. Next owner had dogs and small kids. The beautiful teak and holly sole was basically destroyed. The furniture dented and scratched. The boat languished on the market. My understanding was eventually sold for about half its value when my friend sold it. Cosmetics are expensive. Not maintaining them has an immediate and significant impact on value and salability.

 

[backinblue]

Peter, I am still amazed that you have owned the same boat for 25+ years…

But it's really not the same boat for 25 years, but different and better versions of the same boat from I can see.

To the OP, I am on my first real power boat coming over from sailing as many of us here have. If this is your first power boat since sailing (and I mean a comparable cruising boat, not a center console for example) you might be surprised at how your wants and needs change once you make the move. Some examples in my own experience similar to some of your thoughts.

1) Speed is not important as we are used to traveling at slow speeds and rarely in a straight line.

This can be a big mistake, 7 knots sailing is flying, but a slow crawl on a motor boat. I now often cruise ~15 knts and think it's rather slow at times.

2) We only need simple accomodations, we are used to spartan living on board.

I almost bought a boat w/o a generator or A/C because I never had them and never thought I needed them. I'm glad I didn't buy that boat because now those things are essential at times and especially important at re-sale. I didn't know why the selling broker made a point more than once to say "You know there is no generator, right?"

I think the smarter move would be to put that money into finding the boat that fits your needs and is not a on-off custom of your own design that few future owners will have the same opinion of your decisions. There may be other factors that make you want to take this project on that are not immediately apparent. If this is a new boat that just has not been finished and you are getting it for next to nothing, I could see the appeal, but still would suggest you don't stray too far from traditional designs. Peter knows better than anyone here the path you are contemplating, so pay close attention to his advice.

 

[Jeff F]

I think the smarter move would be to put that money into finding the boat that fits your needs and is not a on-off custom of your own design that few future owners will have the same opinion of your decisions.

Solid advice. Get a starter trawler by buying a boat that's being used the way you imagine yourself using, and be prepared to tweak and/or reevaluate the use case.

 

[Choices]

What is your time worth?

While imagining a beautiful GB teak interior finished to perfection in the innards of someone else's dream, take time to see the story.

It is not finished for a reason. Someone poured hard money into it and did not cross the line. Could be health, divorce, cash, whatever, doesn't matter. Why do you think you will be able to finish it?

Knocking out cabinets to a home is Soo much simpler than a boat. 4X easier. You might not even be able to get them into the boat or to the boat.

I would only consider this if you are a Master Craftsman in design, construction, finish, and installation. To give you an idea, a Master Craftsman at this level knows what the job takes. His US rates could easily be $250/hour, and well worth it. Or you could go $50/hour and watch him walk around getting nothing accomplished while you pay him to figure it out.

You arer buying a boat for pleasure. Fill it with pretty women, good booze, and good times. Not torn up $100 dollar bills and dreams.

 

[Benthic2]

For sheer economic reasons, I don't think any individual craftsman can do it as cost effectively as a yard that is set up to do them at a higher volume. That means you are going to pay more than for a finished boat and you are really rolling the dice with the level of craftsmanship you will get, the timing of the project, cost over runs, yard surcharges etc. You will get a better boat, sooner for less money if you buy a boat in the condition you want.

 

[psneeld]

There are places such as Ft Lauderdale, Fl that used to (probably still does) have many, many craftsman from all over that pay for their cruising by being part of the boating/yachting industry. They work at a fraction of the price but you have to be careful and perform due diligence on who you hire.

Custom boatwork is in my experience a piece meal job, not the cookie cutter operation of builders.

 

[FWT]

I am one of those with a new build Helmsman 38 currently in process.

I get construction progress pics about every 10-14 days. From day 1 to completion ready for shipment the timeline will be about 11-12 months. Of that timeline, it takes a month or so to lay the hull. I don't know what it takes in time dedicated to mounting the engine, or to attaching deck and top to the hull. But I'd guess 9 months to do everything else.

Every pic has anywhere from 2-4 guys hard at work. I obviously have no idea how many days have no one working on mine, while they work on something else. But the point is, for 9 months its a couple of guys. Guys who have built that same boat before, have all of the needed templates, don't have to stop and think about process or what materials to order and use, and have every tool and material at their fingertips when needed.

The sheer manhours involved in finishing out that boat would be a bigger number than mine. A really big number.

 

[Bill Streever]

Hi everyone. Many thanks for your insights. Not surprised by any of it, of course. Really appreciate everyone’s willingness to provide thoughtful comments. -bill

 

[Bill Streever]

Thanks again everyone.

Thanks again everyone. Really helpful. Posting now (I hope) with a photo of our current boat—clearly not a trawler. We’ll keep looking for a trawler that will work for us when we are done sailing. All advice welcome regarding available trawlers, keeping a goal of simplicity in mind as well as (ideally) reasonably shallow draft.