Cost above estimate

[swampu]

My yard calls if things are going sideways. But no if I dropped off the Rose and they handed me bill without letting me know we would be fighting. I do not tolarate that at all. If something pops up which it always does than you decide to fix it now or later.

 

[Shrew]

I don't want and estimate, I want a quote and I expect them to honor it to the penny. Most boat work is fairly predictable for someone who is experienced and for the most part, I don't want someone inexperienced working on my boat.


I in come cases, I will ask how much it costs to give me an exact quote with work that has unknowns and then proceed accordingly.



Then there will be a work order, with a penalty clause for late performance and a bonus clause for early performance... with a lot of details, including the entire scope of work and materials performed. Especially, if they has possession of my boat.


Now, for known mechanics, which is the bulk of my hired work, I may bend, even with only a verbal agreement.



Has worked well for boats and planes over the years, with minimal surprises.

That is the kind of customer I would walk away from. There is a point when a customer is more headache than the profit they generate.

 

[DDW]

That said, I have detected the quotes for newest work seem to be relatively higher than what I perceive to be similar work done earlier in in the refit.

They are learning how much to pad their estimate....

That is the kind of customer I would walk away from. There is a point when a customer is more headache than the profit they generate.

Or a customer who you will surely give a very conservative estimate to make sure it covers every possible contingency. Such a customer is paying much more in the long run for the certainty of a bid.

There is a reason why yards charge high hourly rates ($80 - $100 in more expensive areas) while paying the people actually doing the work $20/hr. This covers profit and overhead - a big part of the overhead is the unknown of boat work.

This is parallel to the discussion on getting a custom boat built: T&M or Bid? Neither is a clear winner, both have pros and cons.

 

[denverd0n]

What I find most enlightening is that we use a yard for all our work that most here would probably say is expensive and would go elsewhere. However, they provide written estimates. They do the work within those estimates unless something arises and then they get advance approval to exceed. They also meet their promised completion dates and the work is done right so we don't have to return. I think they end up being less expensive than the cheaper options and I know far less stressful. They are professional and disciplined. I often find a correlation between good business practices and quality service.

PLEASE!!! Name names!

 

[BandB]

PLEASE!!! Name names!

Rybovich.

 

[rsn48]

Personally, right now after most of my refit complete, I'd be happy with a 100 % over run of the install quote. My boat because of a wood hull had issues fitting the engine in, nothing fatal, just expensive. The over run was with the engine installers, not the entire refit.

In fact, my main refit guy tried to be nice and fought me when I wanted new fuel tanks. He was trying to save me money and they did look good, that is the parts you could see. When I insisted on new tanks and the old tanks came out (gas), one corner of one of the tanks was very very slowly weeping only when the tank warmed up and expansion occurred. This leak was in a corner you couldn't see.

This is my way to say, until you see it, all of it, you don't know what you are dealing with so a quote from a refit guy might be bang on, or a dapple in fiction.

 

[syjos]

That is the kind of customer I would walk away from. There is a point when a customer is more headache than the profit they generate.

I agree 100%

I probably walked away from more PIA clients than I should have. If they start out being PIA during estimates, they will be a bigger PIA once the work starts.

I was fortunate that I had several other side hustle businesses going at the same time so didn't need to work for people I didn't care to deal with for the sake of $$$$$.

The way I got out of working for a PIA client is by bidding high. I used a mental balance scale with $ on one side and the degree of PIA on the other. The bigger the PIA, the higher the bid. Most PIA clients were usually a tightwad too so the high bid made them go elsewhere. If they accepted my high bid, which rarely occured, I considered it compensation for the PIA.

I'm revealing my strategy for PIA clients since I am retired.

 

[sbman]

The yards I've dealt with in San Diego have blatantly lied about the actual work and materials involved, and that's not even contemplating the estimate. In one instance, they billed me for materials that they simply did not use, labor that did not exist and I knew this because I was present for the duration of the work. This added several hundred dollars to the bill. In that particular case I was billed for multiple workers when there was only 1. I was also billed for entire packs of consumable materials when I saw that only 1 used consumable was brought out and used for the whole job. The yard manager did correct the bill when I complained, so there's that.

Unfortunately I've had the same experience at all three yards I've tried ranging from one of the most expensive in town to the cheaper end of them.

 

[caltexflanc]

PLEASE!!! Name names!

I had the same experience as B&B described in having a variety of work done at Thunderbolt Marine in Georgia. And they really stood behind their work above and beyond expectations when a worker screwed up.

But there are all sorts of systems on a boat, some easier to develop a quote on, and others requiring invasive inspection to see the extent of the issue. Plus various forms of skill required, with the associated skilled labor costing different amounts. So as for the OP, it is really not possible to generalize.

 

[JVCalifornian]

In my experience it has been 20 to 30 above the estimate.

 

[old salt]

I'm on my second wooden boat, now, this one a 47 foot classic built in 1927 that has been taken extensively rebuilt and maintained by the Port Townsend Shipwright's Co-op. Hands-down, they're an excellent shop, and in all trades. I've worked with the same lead shipwright for the past seven years, and found his estimates to be within 5 percent of what he quotes, as often 5 percent less as 5 percent over. It helps that I understand what I'm looking at in the wooden side of things and am generally familiar with the engine and powertrain, less so electrical. They do steel, aluminum and fiberglass work as well, though I am much less familiar with those types of boats. If you want an endorsement for a shop that does things right, the Port Townsend Shipwright's Co-Op is that shop.

 

[syjos]

I'm on my second wooden boat, now, this one a 47 foot classic built in 1927 that has been taken extensively rebuilt and maintained by the Port Townsend Shipwright's Co-op. Hands-down, they're an excellent shop, and in all trades. I've worked with the same lead shipwright for the past seven years, and found his estimates to be within 5 percent of what he quotes, as often 5 percent less as 5 percent over. It helps that I understand what I'm looking at in the wooden side of things and am generally familiar with the engine and powertrain, less so electrical. They do steel, aluminum and fiberglass work as well, though I am much less familiar with those types of boats. If you want an endorsement for a shop that does things right, the Port Townsend Shipwright's Co-Op is that shop.

I second the recommendation for the Port Townsend Shipwrights Co-Op. Whether your boat is wood, plastic or metal, there will be someone qualified to work on it. A lot of the Co-Op craftsmen and women were trained at the NW School of Woodboat Building located in PT. Though the name says wood boat, students learn to work with all boat building materials, mechanical, plumbing, electrical, refrigeration and anthing else on a boat.

Port Townsend attracts craftsmen from all over and they all appear to have good, honest work ethics and integrity. I would still get reviews and opinions from former clients and look at past work completed by the specific craftsmen before hiring them.

Though I do all my own repairs, if I needed a repair that I could not undertake myself, I would go to PT without hesitation.

 

[old salt]

A lot of the Co-Op craftsmen and women were trained at the NW School of Woodboat Building located in PT.

One minor note, and that is that the Northwest School of Wooden Boatbuilding is now in Port Hadlock WA at 42 N Water Street (right on the water, across from the Ajax Cafe.

 

[johnma]

I would say it depends on what type of work is required. If it is mechanical, such as an engine or transmission overhaul i think that an almost exact estimate can be made for the overhaul. Then variations can come from the remove an reinstall as they don't know what they might run into. Any shop worth their reputation can quote mechanical overhauls. I managed a transmission, differential and hydraulic component remanufacturing shop for 40 years specializing in on/off highway and marine components. If someone called us for say a Twin Disc marine gear for anything from a 38' boat to an ocean going tug we gave them a basic, major and average price sight unseen. Within 24 hours of receiving the job they got a firm price. A dredge company had a major hydraulic failure that required the complete overhaul 0f 6 main pumps and 20 hydraulic motors. I gave them a firm price and availability within an hour. Companies that do mechanical work for a living know how much things cost. If they've been around for a while, nothing is new, they have seen it all before.
John

 

[adornato]

boat yard blues$$$

I can't read these anymore. am having flashbacks of dark boatyard experiences of paying at least twice as much as i anticipated.
some of it was legitimate, like finding problems that were not anticipated but others were just painful.

like telling me i cant pick up the boat till the afternoon because they need to "clean her up" for me, (like washing and vacuuming after a job), then sneaking in an extra 135.00/hr charge.

for most jobs that can be done in the water, i either do it myself or have a local independent solo boatguy and i stay on the boat during all the work so they are not tempted to bill me for lunch breaks and diddle time.

 

[sdupleich]

We just completed a pretty large project in our local boatyard - (bottom paint, prop speed on our pod drives, dinghy lift prepped and painted, pod maintenance) and the project came in pretty close the original estimate. What helped in my opinion is that I kept in constant contact with the yard throughout the project, I requested written estimates for any changes or additions and also requested pictures of the work in progress since I was too busy to get out to the yard. I also had a good conversation with the project manager when we dropped off the boat and let him know that I did not want any surprises. Because I laid out my expectations clearly from the outset, and kept in touch throughout the project, I believe this greatly improved our ability to keep costs under control. This is my usual process whenever I have a project done on our boat whether in a yard or in our slip.

 

[Bryant]

Yard cost

What would the collective thought be on how far over an estimate the actual yard bill should be? I understand "estimate" means just that and while one hopes for accuracy there are always some surprises. 10%? 20%? What is your "now just wait a minute" threshold?

I had my boat hauled and did a pretty extensive refit. My yard agreed to wave daily charges as long as I had their people do my work. I was on the hard for a month and I incured no daily charge and they did great work. Bottom line is that some yards are honest and some aren’t. Shop around and get a contract specifying costs and cost over runs.

 

[BandB]

We just completed a pretty large project in our local boatyard - (bottom paint, prop speed on our pod drives, dinghy lift prepped and painted, pod maintenance) and the project came in pretty close the original estimate. What helped in my opinion is that I kept in constant contact with the yard throughout the project, I requested written estimates for any changes or additions and also requested pictures of the work in progress since I was too busy to get out to the yard. I also had a good conversation with the project manager when we dropped off the boat and let him know that I did not want any surprises. Because I laid out my expectations clearly from the outset, and kept in touch throughout the project, I believe this greatly improved our ability to keep costs under control. This is my usual process whenever I have a project done on our boat whether in a yard or in our slip.

Expectations.
Monitoring.

Absolutely, make the expectations clear and in the written contract.

And pick a vendor who can meet the expectations based on their history or recommendations. However, it's your responsibility to be sure your expectations are clear and they're committing to them. Then you monitor along the way. The vendor who doesn't want to update you when you want, who doesn't return your calls, you move on from.

One other thing I have always done is if a vendor says I can't tell you how much that will cost until I get into it, then my first contract is an amount to determined what the entire project will cost. The project has multiple phases. If one doesn't know what needs to be done, then step one is the diagnosis. IT projects were nearly always multi-phase. We would contract x amount of work to determine the requirements. Then it was develop and recommend a solution. Then you came to the implementation.

 

[markpierce]

It's mostly hourly rates plus parts for me. Seems like there are too many variables except for the simplest of jobs for a fixed price.

 

[rolomart3]

Accuracy of estimates

What would the collective thought be on how far over an estimate the actual yard bill should be? I understand "estimate" means just that and while one hopes for accuracy there are always some surprises. 10%? 20%? What is your "now just wait a minute" threshold?

In my humble opinion, it all depends on how the quote is written. Experienced yard contractors that take the time to write a clear work description (statement of work (SOW)) may estimate the labor and materials fairly accurately while specifying that any perils experienced in the course of executing the work are out of scope, ant therefore; are not included in the price.
For example, if rusted out bolts break inside a block, times and material added costs for removing an re-threading will be extra.
This approach permits the contractor to place a lower bid by lowering the risk of habing to absorve the cost of increased effort. It also benefits the client by having a much clearer picture of hidden boat conditions that show up because the contractor has to explain or propose additional funding for the extra work required fron uncovered deficiencies.
Lastly, a fixed scope of work discourages the contractor from putting to task their novice yard worker at $18/hr while charging the full rate--in essence having you to pay for the novice's training when correcting any mistakes made, all time spent on your dime!!!!

 

[tugboater]

I think the key is tight specs, close management by you and full understanding the impact on cost and time to add things that seem like a good idea at the time.

This!

Enjoyed your post Portage & couldn't agree more. I plan to apply what I've learned on the commercial side to any projects on our boat (when we get it!). I just pushed through a steel repair project in Seward. It was a fixed bid, the contractor performed well & were easy to work with, so tip of the hat to them. It did take longer than estimated, so I imagine if we agreed to T&M it would have cost us money. Other than a few more miles in gas and a little more travel on my part, none of that overrun in time was on us. It has been my experience in the past that attendance by an owner/rep with keen oversight saves dollars...usually lots.

 

[Seabag]

UPDATE. I've been tracking the yard's progress against their initial estimate and they are close. I've pushed back the completion date to accommodate their schedule and mine, now due to splash May 1st. The "only" surprise has been two bent shafts, four new cutlass bearings and two new shaft couplings. I'm not sure whether the surveyor could/should have caught the shafts and bearings but I own it now. When I get out of the yard I'll do a summary.

Thanks to everyone for their thoughts and comments.