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Old 02-05-2020, 06:11 PM   #21
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Well I have a written estimate that was created from the mechanical and hull surveys. I listed the items I wanted addressed and had 3 yards respond. One was twice the low estimate, the other was one and a half the low number. Only the lowest estimate addressed all the items in my original list. I spoke to all three and was surprised that the most knowledgeable seemed to be the low bidder. There have been a few surprises (2 bent shafts, 1 frozen coupling that had to be cut off meaning a new shaft, four new cutlass bearings, replacement and not rehab of the dripless shaft seals). So far the yard has cut the billable rate for some of the labor ($95 to $50) but I am awaiting an updated accounting. I understand and expect the shaft work will be on me though I will vent on the surveyor who perhaps could/should have caught the wows in both. He should have recognized the failed PSS seals as well. For those reasons alone I won't use him again.

My day of reckoning (accounting) is approaching but that also means I get my boat back. I'll post the results in the next 4-5 weeks when she's finally in the slip.

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.
Peter

I'd like to strangle my surveyors as well. Supposedly the best. Missed failed shaft seals, corrosion and pitting on the shafts, bent strut, failing cutlass bearings, failing sea strainer, failed water tank, fuel lines ready to crumble at the slightest touch, called totally failed bonding system "over zinced".


But your original question was how much over estimate to expect? I'll stick with planning for 25% at final and to be notified at 10% as work progresses. All of the missed items I listed above have to be considered change orders, they were found as work progressed, not to be included in the 10% notification and 25% expected overage. Surprises like I listed above will drive the final far beyond original estimates and that is fully understood.
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Old 02-05-2020, 06:15 PM   #22
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I did an extensive, and expensive, refit in the USA. I had written estimates for all the work, probably about 9 in the end for different items. It was the way the yard worked.

However, with work on multiple estimates being concurrent it was not really feasible to track in detail against the estimates. But by the time we initiated the work in the second and subsequent estimates I had formed a favourable view on their integrity, and I was on-site for 90% of the time as well.

There will always be aspects that cause increases unless its a simple scope of work, particularly on an older boat where a history of DIY by PO's has occurred. Usually labour, but at time materials as well that requires additional labour as well. I would not want a yard to notice things needing R&M but not raise them or address them because it wasn't in the original estimate. And a bunch of little things that ought to be done can add up surprisingly quickly. Yes, you can insist that only work in the original scope and estimate be done, but in the long run that will probably lead to unexpected failures, inconvenience and even higher cost.
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Old 02-05-2020, 07:18 PM   #23
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My first yard 'visit' was the most expensive. Many things accomplished to bring the boat up to my standards.... the next visit, not so expensive, the most recent visit.... I had 3 coats of bottom paint on plus the usual.... even less. Next visit.... bottom prep and painting, I hope. We shall see.
By the way, this yard charges $1000 per prep and bottom paint coat.
I rely on my diver to keep me informed of the bottom paint and cleaning out the through hulls.
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Old 02-05-2020, 07:23 PM   #24
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Saw a sign in an independent Mercedes shop: Labor rates - $90/hr if you stay in waiting room, $125/hr if you want to watch, $150/hr if you try to help. Probably the same in most marine shops.
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Old 02-05-2020, 08:25 PM   #25
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Saw a sign in an independent Mercedes shop: Labor rates - $90/hr if you stay in waiting room, $125/hr if you want to watch, $150/hr if you try to help. Probably the same in most marine shops.
In my scuba store I had a similar sign:

Labor Rate Per Hour: XX
If you watch: XX
If you help: XX
If you work on it first: XXX
If you purchased it somewhere else : XXX

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Old 02-05-2020, 09:24 PM   #26
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If they're uncertain, they should estimate boat ways and tell you when in the process they will know. Not knowing until they get half way through the job is incompetence.
The problem is you don't know what you don't know. Neither do they. They might give you a high and low estimate, but in boats there are many, many jobs that are simply obscured until opened up. If there is 100% difference between the high and the low, I guess you could call that communication. I'd call it a guess.

If a shop always hits its estimate working on random boats, either it estimates high to cover contingencies, or cuts corners on the work when it turns out to be more complicated. This is no different than construction contractors.
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Old 02-05-2020, 11:03 PM   #27
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The problem is you don't know what you don't know. Neither do they. They might give you a high and low estimate, but in boats there are many, many jobs that are simply obscured until opened up. If there is 100% difference between the high and the low, I guess you could call that communication. I'd call it a guess.

If a shop always hits its estimate working on random boats, either it estimates high to cover contingencies, or cuts corners on the work when it turns out to be more complicated. This is no different than construction contractors.


For people with older boats, this covers it exactly.
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Old 02-06-2020, 02:03 AM   #28
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I don't want and estimate, I want a quote and I expect them to honor it to the penny. Most boat work is fairly predictable for someone who is experienced and for the most part, I don't want someone inexperienced working on my boat.


I in come cases, I will ask how much it costs to give me an exact quote with work that has unknowns and then proceed accordingly.



Then there will be a work order, with a penalty clause for late performance and a bonus clause for early performance... with a lot of details, including the entire scope of work and materials performed. Especially, if they has possession of my boat.


Now, for known mechanics, which is the bulk of my hired work, I may bend, even with only a verbal agreement.



Has worked well for boats and planes over the years, with minimal surprises.
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Old 02-06-2020, 05:34 AM   #29
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I'm in the midst of a refit of my Willard 36. Well over 50 "projects". About 80% can be quoted with confidence without risk premium attached by yard, but some cannot. Major service on engine uncovered some very worn hydraulic hoses for example, was easier to replace RW pump and FW pump, etc. Yard has been good about honoring their quote even when minor surprises come up, presumably because the overages are balanced by the underages in a large refit. That said, I have detected the quotes for newest work seem to be relatively higher than what I perceive to be similar work done earlier in in the refit.

Bottom line is, in my opinion, you either trust the people (skills and integrity) you are working with or you don't. If for any reason you don't, move on. You may find a particular yard has excellent fiberglass work but their mechanical work is meh and thus expensive.
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Old 02-06-2020, 06:07 AM   #30
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Boatyard time is expensive , the hardest/trickiest job is estimating , so do not expect a complex written estimate to be for free!
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Old 02-06-2020, 07:13 AM   #31
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My yard calls if things are going sideways. But no if I dropped off the Rose and they handed me bill without letting me know we would be fighting. I do not tolarate that at all. If something pops up which it always does than you decide to fix it now or later.
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Old 02-06-2020, 08:17 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seevee View Post
I don't want and estimate, I want a quote and I expect them to honor it to the penny. Most boat work is fairly predictable for someone who is experienced and for the most part, I don't want someone inexperienced working on my boat.


I in come cases, I will ask how much it costs to give me an exact quote with work that has unknowns and then proceed accordingly.



Then there will be a work order, with a penalty clause for late performance and a bonus clause for early performance... with a lot of details, including the entire scope of work and materials performed. Especially, if they has possession of my boat.


Now, for known mechanics, which is the bulk of my hired work, I may bend, even with only a verbal agreement.



Has worked well for boats and planes over the years, with minimal surprises.
That is the kind of customer I would walk away from. There is a point when a customer is more headache than the profit they generate.
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Old 02-06-2020, 10:27 AM   #33
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That said, I have detected the quotes for newest work seem to be relatively higher than what I perceive to be similar work done earlier in in the refit.
They are learning how much to pad their estimate....

Quote:
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That is the kind of customer I would walk away from. There is a point when a customer is more headache than the profit they generate.
Or a customer who you will surely give a very conservative estimate to make sure it covers every possible contingency. Such a customer is paying much more in the long run for the certainty of a bid.

There is a reason why yards charge high hourly rates ($80 - $100 in more expensive areas) while paying the people actually doing the work $20/hr. This covers profit and overhead - a big part of the overhead is the unknown of boat work.

This is parallel to the discussion on getting a custom boat built: T&M or Bid? Neither is a clear winner, both have pros and cons.
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Old 02-06-2020, 10:41 AM   #34
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What I find most enlightening is that we use a yard for all our work that most here would probably say is expensive and would go elsewhere. However, they provide written estimates. They do the work within those estimates unless something arises and then they get advance approval to exceed. They also meet their promised completion dates and the work is done right so we don't have to return. I think they end up being less expensive than the cheaper options and I know far less stressful. They are professional and disciplined. I often find a correlation between good business practices and quality service.
PLEASE!!! Name names!
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Old 02-06-2020, 01:10 PM   #35
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Old 02-06-2020, 02:28 PM   #36
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Personally, right now after most of my refit complete, I'd be happy with a 100 % over run of the install quote. My boat because of a wood hull had issues fitting the engine in, nothing fatal, just expensive. The over run was with the engine installers, not the entire refit.

In fact, my main refit guy tried to be nice and fought me when I wanted new fuel tanks. He was trying to save me money and they did look good, that is the parts you could see. When I insisted on new tanks and the old tanks came out (gas), one corner of one of the tanks was very very slowly weeping only when the tank warmed up and expansion occurred. This leak was in a corner you couldn't see.

This is my way to say, until you see it, all of it, you don't know what you are dealing with so a quote from a refit guy might be bang on, or a dapple in fiction.
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Old 02-06-2020, 02:50 PM   #37
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That is the kind of customer I would walk away from. There is a point when a customer is more headache than the profit they generate.
I agree 100%

I probably walked away from more PIA clients than I should have. If they start out being PIA during estimates, they will be a bigger PIA once the work starts.

I was fortunate that I had several other side hustle businesses going at the same time so didn't need to work for people I didn't care to deal with for the sake of $$$$$.

The way I got out of working for a PIA client is by bidding high. I used a mental balance scale with $ on one side and the degree of PIA on the other. The bigger the PIA, the higher the bid. Most PIA clients were usually a tightwad too so the high bid made them go elsewhere. If they accepted my high bid, which rarely occured, I considered it compensation for the PIA.

I'm revealing my strategy for PIA clients since I am retired.
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Old 02-06-2020, 05:29 PM   #38
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The yards I've dealt with in San Diego have blatantly lied about the actual work and materials involved, and that's not even contemplating the estimate. In one instance, they billed me for materials that they simply did not use, labor that did not exist and I knew this because I was present for the duration of the work. This added several hundred dollars to the bill. In that particular case I was billed for multiple workers when there was only 1. I was also billed for entire packs of consumable materials when I saw that only 1 used consumable was brought out and used for the whole job. The yard manager did correct the bill when I complained, so there's that.

Unfortunately I've had the same experience at all three yards I've tried ranging from one of the most expensive in town to the cheaper end of them.
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Old 02-06-2020, 05:41 PM   #39
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PLEASE!!! Name names!
I had the same experience as B&B described in having a variety of work done at Thunderbolt Marine in Georgia. And they really stood behind their work above and beyond expectations when a worker screwed up.

But there are all sorts of systems on a boat, some easier to develop a quote on, and others requiring invasive inspection to see the extent of the issue. Plus various forms of skill required, with the associated skilled labor costing different amounts. So as for the OP, it is really not possible to generalize.
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Old 02-10-2020, 05:59 PM   #40
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In my experience it has been 20 to 30 above the estimate.
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