Compost Head - my take on Natures Head after a month

[Hippocampus]

Just poking fun. Gentleman definitely sit to pee.

 

[SteveK]

Anything is better than a true head. Imagine going out on the bowsprit hanging on in a seaway and taking a dump.

I like a head where you can brace against the closed door, a locker or bulkhead if it’s sporty. Wonder if the diversion in desiccating heads work in such conditions.

On a sailboat under sail the head was 90* to centerline. Using the head only worked on one of the tacks, where you could sit back as opposed to leaned forward.

Each to their own I say. Me, I would not buy a boat with vacuflush or compost toilets. And after discovering the comforts of the ME have not hesitated to upgrade asap after purchase.

 

[Peter B]

I'm in the marine repair business. You'll never need to call for a repair on a composting toilet. I fix boat toilets regularly. No fun. But the composting can be a pain as well. We have 2 Natures Heads, and some days im really frustrated. The urine tank has no signal it's full. Then its a messy problem as you will spill urine just trying to remove the tank to empty it. If you have guests it can fill quickly and be overflowing into the solids tank. Also emptying the solids would be too hard for my wife. The lower part when full is pretty heavy. We'll be buying another boat in a few months haven't decided which way to go.

Might I refer you to my previous post in this thread here...
https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums...es-head-after-month-67210.html#post1158770#15
...just a thought..?

 

[Cargile]

We have a 28' trailer trawler. Fully live aboard. When we go out it is almost always the Admiral and I. We don't imbibe alcohol so frequent head calls don't happen. I have owned two of this model boat. Current boat came with a Jabsco pump toilet. Never worked right. I read about "composting heads" on the internet for maybe a year. As I recall I never read a negative report from someone who actually owned one. All negative reports were from speculating non-owners. So maybe a year ago I bought bought a Nature's Head. The holding tank system is completely removed and the background odor left with it. So now as someone who can report from actual experience, I am very happy with the Nature's Head. Larger boats with more souls on board may tax a single "composting head". Given our situation the Nature's Head is a great improvement over holding tank systems.

 

[guy with a boat]

I don't have to own an outhouse or a porta-potti to know that I don't want either system in my home or boat.

No one has to own a composting/dessicating head to legitimately say its not for them. The pros and cons are pretty clear and most of us have had experience with the other options.

Its great that these things have been a good solution for many, and it's okay to know that they aren't everyone's cup of tea.

 

[Cargile]

I don't have to own an outhouse or a porta-potti to know that I don't want either system in my home or boat.
No one has to own a composting/dessicating head to legitimately say its not for them. The pros and cons are pretty clear and most of us have had experience with the other options.Its great that these things have been a good solution for many, and it's okay to know that they aren't everyone's cup of tea.

So says the gentleman with a $2-$3 million motor yacht. I would be surprised if you have ever lifted "finger one" to maintain anything on your yacht. In your situation I would pay people to do all work for me. So I had this epiphany that your holding tank, outhouses, porti potties and composting heads are basically the same. They collect, hold and transfer (CHT) your sewage. No difference. They all apply the same basic process. Actually, thinking further a holding tank system is more akin to an outhouse or porta potti than a composting head. The former systems create sewage, the composting head does not. It separates urine and desiccates feces.

 

[guy with a boat]

So says the gentleman with a $2-$3 million motor yacht. I would be surprised if you have ever lifted "finger one" to maintain anything on your yacht. In your situation I would pay people to do all work for me. So I had this epiphany that your holding tank, outhouses, porti potties and composting heads are basically the same. They collect, hold and transfer (CHT) your sewage. No difference. They all apply the same basic process. Actually, thinking further a holding tank system is more akin to an outhouse or porta potti than a composting head. The former systems create sewage, the composting head does not. It separates urine and desiccates feces.

Nice job taking a personal shot at me based on my boat picture. You don’t know anything about me or my boat. FWIW, I have done 95% of the maintenance on this boat and each of the previous boats we have owned. I have been hands-on every system in every boat, including the heads and tank systems.

Had you read my post more carefully, you would have seen that I was responding to the often-repeated suggestion that only an owner of a composting head is allowed to have an opinion about one. I also said this: “Its great that these things have been a good solution for many, and it's okay to know that they aren't everyone's cup of tea.”

You are welcome to your opinion and others are welcome to theirs. That’s how this internet thing works.

 

[CarlF]

I appreciate the review and agree with your decision if comparing compositing to any head except the Marine Elegance which is really in a class of its own.

I’ve had many heads over the year - including a Lavac - but nothing comes close to being as trouble free and pleasant - especially if using fresh water flush.

My primary problem with composting is that it’s difficult to ask guests or children to use them. We enjoy having friends and family join us. A “No TP in the head rule” is just too Captain Bligh for me. The Elegance is about as close to a home toilet experience as you can get. No valves. No hand pumps. No counting strokes. Good rinsing action in the bowl. If you use the computerized control it also uses half the water as a hand pumped head (or “hold the button” electric) - guests tend to pump a lot. The holding tank fills at half the speed.

I understand that the OP is concerned with problems not just in the head. But if you use Raritan hose and flush with fresh water my experience over 8 years has been zero problems or maintenance - not even a joker valve change. The Elegance chops everything up into a slurry as it leaves the bowl that just pours through the plumbing.

And if you are worried about fresh water supply offshore, there’s an option to let you switch to salt water flush which we use offshore when not pumping into a holding tank.

 

[Capt Ray]

We do not have a composting head.

I have never talked with a cruiser who had a compost head who was not thrilled with it. I've never spoken with one who changed back to marine plumbing from compost.

Are there any among this group? (who changed back to marine plumbing from a compost head?)

 

[mvweebles]

We do not have a composting head.



I have never talked with a cruiser who had a compost head who was not thrilled with it. I've never spoken with one who changed back to marine plumbing from compost.



Are there any among this group? (who changed back to marine plumbing from a compost head?)

That was my experience too when I asked around. But I think there's some underlying pieces that lessen the endorsement because the enthusiasts are a bit self-selecting.

First, not everyone would even consider a CH, so those that do ultimately go that route have a certain acceptance built in.

Second, the folks who consider a CH have been driven to find an alternative. Could be bad experiences like myself and others. Could be they have a small boat where a standard marine head system does not fit and operate well. Or just really small holding tank capacity.

Finally, they tend not to have many guests.

Frankly, if it weren't for pumpouts, I would have been much closer to going the Marine Elegance route. A gigantic holding tank would help too, but I do remind myself that holding tank issues manifest when the tank is full. Dealing with 200g of sewage would be a pain.

In the end, the right head depends on a lot of factors. I would certainly do a CH again, and best setup would be two head boat, one CH, the other conventional. And I think incineration is a strong concept- with exception of power requirements, may have the fewest drawbacks. Odd that a selection is made because it sucks less than everything else.

Peter

 

[rslifkin]

Frankly, if it weren't for pumpouts, I would have been much closer to going the Marine Elegance route. A gigantic holding tank would help too, but I do remind myself that holding tank issues manifest when the tank is full. Dealing with 200g of sewage would be a pain.

That scenario is why I refuse to have a holding tank with a bottom mounted outlet. All methods of emptying should be via a dip tube from the top. In other words, if the tank is full, no plumbing work or situation should ever lead to waste exiting the tank when you don't want it to.

 

[guy with a boat]

That was my experience too when I asked around. But I think there's some underlying pieces that lessen the endorsement because the enthusiasts are a bit self-selecting.

First, not everyone would even consider a CH, so those that do ultimately go that route have a certain acceptance built in.

Second, the folks who consider a CH have been driven to find an alternative. Could be bad experiences like myself and others. Could be they have a small boat where a standard marine head system does not fit and operate well. Or just really small holding tank capacity.

Finally, they tend not to have many guests.

Frankly, if it weren't for pumpouts, I would have been much closer to going the Marine Elegance route. A gigantic holding tank would help too, but I do remind myself that holding tank issues manifest when the tank is full. Dealing with 200g of sewage would be a pain.

In the end, the right head depends on a lot of factors. I would certainly do a CH again, and best setup would be two head boat, one CH, the other conventional. And I think incineration is a strong concept- with exception of power requirements, may have the fewest drawbacks. Odd that a selection is made because it sucks less than everything else.

Peter

Well said. Good analysis of the inherent flaws of surveys for and against.

Whatever works for the individuals involved and the specific boat situation is the right answer.

 

[ben2go]

Bugs hatching out of filler material is why they suck on boats. I've used them on land while camping and back in my hunting days. I used coconut husks and pete moss in them. What's really going to suck on a boat is when you get a load filler material and it's full of bug eggs waiting to hatch. I've had it happen several times. I'm damn sure happy I didn't have the composting toilet inside anything. It was in a tent type outhouse with no bottom. All I did was lay it over and the bugs went away after dumping the bucket.


Just ask these guys about bugs hiding in composting toilet filler material.

 

[SeaStarDF50]

Composting heads - 5+ years

Thank you for this complete and accurate assessment. Our 50yo wood tri-cabin had an old direct-overboard, salt-water head in the aft cabin, and a stinky, finicky old head up front. We had to ban corn on the boat as a kernel was the perfect size to cause the valve to stick! We usually anchor and our cruising grounds have few pump outs so that was also a dilemma.



After much research, we chose a Nature's Head for the aft cabin. We were so pleased, we also replaced the stinky front head with a Nature's Head two years later, and removed the equally stinky hoses and tank.



We prepackage peat moss in gallon ziplocks, easy units to store. We're on the boat for 2 days to 2 months at a time. When it's just 2 of us, we can actually *compost* the waste by using one toilet to capacity, then letting it rest and use the other. If needed to keep the temperature up in the winter for composting, we put a small dehumidifier in the bathroom. It's about a 2-week cycle.


Having guests is more complicated. We try to start a trip with both "new" toilets and give the guest head a chance to rest afterwards.


We put single-ply TP in the toilet. It, too, is absorbent and disintegrates quickly.



Diarrhea can be problematic. Initially, you add more peat moss to absorb the extra liquid and hope it's short lived.



As a woman, I find the diverter ridge between liquids and solids to be too low to contain a flow of urine with much velocity, so I made a small funnel, about 2" tall, from a clear, plastic rectangular bottle that sits in the liquids recess.



One time in warm weather, we got fruit flies in the compost. It's not unusual and just slightly annoying. Sprinkle diatomaceous earth on the medium. When cleaning the head, be sure to check the underside of the seat and other crevices for fruit fly eggs which are pin-head-sized, light brown dots stuck to the surfaces. Repeat a dusting of diatomaceous earth when you change medium.


We are still happy with our choices.

 

[ranger58sb]

I appreciate the review and agree with your decision if comparing compositing to any head except the Marine Elegance which is really in a class of its own.

I’ve had many heads over the year - including a Lavac - but nothing comes close to being as trouble free and pleasant - especially if using fresh water flush.

My primary problem with composting is that it’s difficult to ask guests or children to use them. We enjoy having friends and family join us. A “No TP in the head rule” is just too Captain Bligh for me. The Elegance is about as close to a home toilet experience as you can get. No valves. No hand pumps. No counting strokes. Good rinsing action in the bowl. If you use the computerized control it also uses half the water as a hand pumped head (or “hold the button” electric) - guests tend to pump a lot. The holding tank fills at half the speed.

I don't find myself attracted to composting or desiccating heads... and one additional reason is also that whole "guests" thing. Useful objective info from this thread is solidifying (sorry for the pun) my opinion.

In any case, we had similar positive results with our earlier Jabsco Quiet flush electric freshwater-flush toilet.

It doesn't get the rave reviews the ME gets -- I suspect partially because it gets lumped in with all the other Jabsco toilet versions, including saltwater-flush and manual-pump models. The result I think is that sometimes "Jabsco" is an instant kiss of death...

But our results were pretty good. We had about 15 years experience with it, replaced the motor once at about the 11/12 year mark (I think), replaced the joker valves a few times over the years...

And we didn't have to offer much training for guests.

But then again, it was part of a larger system. Our original 40 gallon (nominal) holding tank was limited to approx. 27 gallons or something like that. Partly because the labeling was wrong (more like 35 gallons, max) and partly because all side-mounted fittings made the top of the tank capacity unusable. We replaced with a real 40-gallon tank, used top-mounted fittings, and got our capacity up to a real 40 gallons. THAT made a significant difference!

-Chris

 

[Hippocampus]

Informative thread. Find it interesting several posters have suggested using two techniques. Either a ME with holding tank and a CH. Makes sense use the CH coastally and the ME offshore. However for a long term cruising boat I’m curious if anyone can list downside fora ME and an incinolet. With a Charlie Noble or similar device venting is a non issue. When plugged in electrical draw also not troublesome. A big downside of traditional or incinerating electrical heads is they need electricity. CH do not to my understanding. However now that LiFePO banks are available can see if you have a genset, large solar array can see a boat with two house banks not be limited by incinerating. You can store many of the paper liners in a small area. The residual is dust and sterile so disposal a non issue.

 

[mvweebles]

Informative thread. Find it interesting several posters have suggested using two techniques. Either a ME with holding tank and a CH. Makes sense use the CH coastally and the ME offshore. However for a long term cruising boat I’m curious if anyone can list downside fora ME and an incinolet. With a Charlie Noble or similar device venting is a non issue. When plugged in electrical draw also not troublesome. A big downside of traditional or incinerating electrical heads is they need electricity. CH do not to my understanding. However now that LiFePO banks are available can see if you have a genset, large solar array can see a boat with two house banks not be limited by incinerating. You can store many of the paper liners in a small area. The residual is dust and sterile so disposal a non issue.

I can see three concerns/drawbacks to the Incinolet

1. Size - it's 21-inches tall. "Comfort Height" home toilets are about 18". Not a big deal for me and my 5'10" wife, but may be for others (I seem to recall your (Hippocampus) wife is on the shorter side).
2. Vent. This puppy wants a 4-inch thru-roof vent. That's pretty limiting on many smaller boats.
3. Power. Directions specify it be power-cycled with each flush. Further, install recommendation is for a dedicated 20A circuit - an issue itself for 30A boats. And it uses 1.5kw-2.0kw per cycle which means its the domain of boats that run generator all the time when away from the dock. BTW - CHs run a 2-inch muffin fan that draws milli-amps. Some users say it's not needed - my experience thus far is that they are.

Especially if you spend a lot of time in no-discharge zones, it's a really strong option. That said, I suspect it doesn't scale well to large passenger loads - better than the Compost Head, but not as well as a holding-tank solution.

Heres an FAQ document from Incinolet: Incinolet - Welcome to Incinolet.ca

As mentioned before, to me, the biggest downside of a ME is not the head itself but rather (1) the below-deck stuff which gets easier with larger boats; and (2) being tethered to pump-outs. Larger holding tanks remediate the issue, but do not resolve it. For folks who frequently go outside the 3-mile line and can legally dump, less of an issue.

There are pluses and minuses with each option that vary by location, itinerary, usage, and boat's design/build.

Peter

 

[SteveK]

Once a person makes a choice when challenged on the choice have an obligation to justify their choice.
Peter you and others having made this choice have accomplished the justification and provided a roadmap for others who wish to follow. I respect your dedication and purpose.
Meanwhile I will be in the camp to press button to flush my two ME. No modern indoor outhouse for me, please respect that too.

 

[mvweebles]

No modern indoor outhouse for me, please respect that too.

I hope my posts have been respectful, objective, and honest about my experiences and the features/functions of each system. I don't think it judgmental to say that holding tank systems are not always trouble-free as evidenced by the frequency of posts on forums including TF. Nor is it judgmental to point out that holding tanks require pump-out that can be a PITA; and that NDZs are another potential challenge.

I also hope I've been clear that in my opnion, the use-case for Compost Head is not universal nor is it particularly expansive. But there most definitely is a use-case just as there is for incinerating. Functionally, there are clear limits to what a Compost Head can do and circumstances for which they'd be an appropriate choice. For folks in that use-case category who were curious but didn't know much about Compost Heads, I hope this thread has been helpful and informative. Would be a shame if there are folks who would go with a Compost Head except they didn't know about them. While I find it regretable, I accept that there are strong negative reactions to Compost Heads that are deal-killers and prevent even consideration of them.

In the end, I will ask for reciprocol respect and recognition that there are alternative thought processes out there; and further, that the answer to every head problem is not as simple as "Buy a Marine Elegance -- and buy better sanitation hose." There are other ways a conventional holding tank system can go south, some of them can be the design and configuration of the system in the first place was lousy.

Peter

 

[SteveK]

I respect your dedication and purpose.

All good Peter

 

[BruceK]

"Respect" is a much misused word. At a drive in Covid test facility a driver cuts in on a line of cars to be at the front. Car behind complains, driver of offending car calls husband who attends and assaults complaining driver of for lack of "respect". Seems to mean whatever people want it to me, with narcissism in play.

 

[Peter B]

I'm kinda intrigued by the fact that after all this discussion, which highlights many of the pitfalls of the desiccation/fluid separation approach, v's the issues that always surround hoses, macerator pumps (and their noise) and holding tanks, and the challenges in emptying them, no-one other than myself has even raised the possibility of using one of the excellent large and well-designed camper type toilet. After all, on a boat it is quite like camping, is it not..? Ok, glamping, then..?

They have progressed beyond the original Portaloo, I assure you. And when you think about the issues above, especially in a space-challenged size boat, they have the advantages of no pumps, no hoses to block, they are silent like the Marine Elegance principle - basically the same in fact, but use minimal fresh water to flush so have their own modest holding tank, with no special pump-out facility needed, and the additive kills an odours. All contingent on proper use of course. I bet no-one on here has actually tried it - very few anyway, and probably relating back to old designs, and while camping.

Well, I did try it on a CHB 34, and it was brilliant solution to all of the above. I just wish I had thought of it sooner, but because I had only used one in a cramped small sailboat, like the majority, I was keen to use a real home type toilet. The reality was very different..! Sort of a case of "what, use a camping toilet on your boat - sacrilege - totally beneath you!" Yet the irony is that's exactly where it has to go - beneath you, right..?

 

[ssobol]

... the excellent large and well-designed camper type toilet. ...

Are you referring to a porta-potti or what amounts to cr*ping in a bucket?

A high tech version of cr*ping in a bucket is the Laveo Dry Flush system.

FWIW, on my boat I use a porta-potti for its simplicity and convenience of dumping.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

The head on my first boat was similar to this one. The bands were brass, the rim was rounded for comfort, and it wasn't $300. Zero maintenance over the years. Guests never had a problem with the system because I was very selective about who came onboard (the secret to eliminating head problems). My second live aboard had a Wilcox Crittenden head with a cast bronze pump. If one had enough arm strength, I have no doubt that it could flush a boot sock through the system (direct discharge).

Those rudimentary systems are no longer allowed, however, I have engineered another zero maintenance system that reduces the requirement of effluent tankage by 74%, thus allowing us several weeks of cruising with our 15 gallon black water tank. Reducing the stored effluent means fewer flushes, so less wear on the system. All that is required is a scupper and leaving the meek ashore (where they will inherit the dirt).

Mark

 

[Peter B]

Are you referring to a porta-potti or what amounts to cr*ping in a bucket?

A high tech version of cr*ping in a bucket is the Laveo Dry Flush system.

FWIW, on my boat I use a porta-potti for its simplicity and convenience of dumping.

I think if you read my post again carefully, you'll see I was referring, in effect, (hence the comparison to the way the Marine Elegance flushes), to more or less, the Rolls Royce of PortaPottis. Good that you have the equivalent. How do you find it..?
That Laveo Dry Flush system looks quite good, but the price is a bit of a dampener..? However, very comparable to the cost of setting up or replacing a classic marine toilet and all that goes with it, I must say.

 

[Delta Riverat]

I did the porta-potti on my first cabin cruiser. It worked, but was not fun.

I installed 2 Marine Elegance heads on the "big boat" and both are equipped with bidet inserts. All the comforts of home.

So, if it can't do a fresh water butt wash, it's not for us -

 

[Mako]

I really liked the vacuflush system in one of my previous boats. It had 2 VF heads, and the 3rd was a typical electric unit which I hated. The VF never gave me trouble over years of use, and it flushed with freshwater with an occasional hit of vinegar. I also liked how all the moving parts (maintenance items) were centrally located in the engine room. The heads themselves were dead nuts simple.

Of course a VF is nowhere near as simple as a compositing head, nor as simple as the Pardey's famous cedar bucket, but it made the boating lifestyle more pleasant.

 

[catalinajack]

That scenario is why I refuse to have a holding tank with a bottom mounted outlet. All methods of emptying should be via a dip tube from the top. In other words, if the tank is full, no plumbing work or situation should ever lead to waste exiting the tank when you don't want it to.

Absolutely! Never a bottom outlet.

 

[catalinajack]

I hope my posts have been respectful, objective, and honest about my experiences and the features/functions of each system. I don't think it judgmental to say that holding tank systems are not always trouble-free as evidenced by the frequency of posts on forums including TF. Nor is it judgmental to point out that holding tanks require pump-out that can be a PITA; and that NDZs are another potential challenge.



I also hope I've been clear that in my opnion, the use-case for Compost Head is not universal nor is it particularly expansive. But there most definitely is a use-case just as there is for incinerating. Functionally, there are clear limits to what a Compost Head can do and circumstances for which they'd be an appropriate choice. For folks in that use-case category who were curious but didn't know much about Compost Heads, I hope this thread has been helpful and informative. Would be a shame if there are folks who would go with a Compost Head except they didn't know about them. While I find it regretable, I accept that there are strong negative reactions to Compost Heads that are deal-killers and prevent even consideration of them.



In the end, I will ask for reciprocol respect and recognition that there are alternative thought processes out there; and further, that the answer to every head problem is not as simple as "Buy a Marine Elegance -- and buy better sanitation hose." There are other ways a conventional holding tank system can go south, some of them can be the design and configuration of the system in the first place was lousy.



Peter

Peter, absolutely correct but, in terms of relative risk, the Marine Elegance is far superior to any other non-outhouse type system, ESPECIALLY a vacuflush. We have two ME heads, one in the aft cabin and one forward. The aft cabin head is used only for urine because the run to the holding tank is about 30 feet. The forward head is about one foot higher than the tank with the hose being only about 6 feet long so poop can reach the tank with a minimum of flushing.

To wit, your assertion that things can happen occasionally, it just happened to me, yes, with one of my MEs. I admit it. Just two days ago when de-winterizing my fresh water system and checking the operation of the heads, I discovered one that was not getting its water supply. I quickly deduced that there was a blockage. I unscrewed the water supply fitting from the pump assembly at the back of the head. Yup, the filter screen was plugged up. Cleaned it, reattached the hose, and all was well. Took about 15 minutes. It took six years of full time live aboard to get to that stage and, in between, I installed a huge, domestic whole house filter so I suspect it will be a VERY long time before I see that particular problem again, if ever.

 

[Hippocampus]

Peter another option is

https://www.leesan.com/shop/cinderella-freedom.aspx

They make an incinerating one that takes a 2 1/2” vent pipe and runs on propane with trivial electrical draw.