Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 03-04-2023, 06:05 PM   #1
Guru
 
mvweebles's Avatar
 
City: Saint Petersburg
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 7,179
Compost Head - my take on Natures Head after a month

Compost Head – my experience so far.
Easily one of the most controversial decisions I made in my refit was to go with a Compost Head. I’ve been living with it for about a month and wanted to give feedback. Now, I realize these are not for everyone. Peggie Hall calls them a “Litter Box” with good reason: operating principles are similar though with one important difference: urine is separated from solid waste. I don’t write this to persuade anyone, certainly not to justify anything, just offer my experience and reasoning for going with a Compost Head (I chose the Natures Head HERE).
Name:  Natures Head.jpg
Views: 471
Size:  4.9 KB

The principle behind a Compost Head.
First, “Compost Head” is a misnomer. They end product is desiccated but by no means composted, a process that can take months. The magic of a Compost Head is it has two compartments: Urine is diverted into a separate holding bottle and solid waste is deposited into a holding bin with a barely moistened media such as peat moss or coco coir. This is what separates a Compost Head from all other methods of waste management, including a litter box that develop an acrid, ammonia smell.

Why did I go compost?
When I was preparing to bring Weebles to Ensenada from San Francisco, my macerator pump died a couple days before departure. No problem, I bought a new one. It would run then immediately shut down. I was certain it was an install error – I tried reversing it, checking wires, maybe the breaker was bad. Everything. Spent many hours. And cleaned-up 3-4 times. Turns out the Macerator Pump was DOA – the overheat cut-off had malfunctioned.

But this was not my first head-related issue over 25-years. I thought about going a traditional head – the Elegance. But the more I thought about it, the more I realized it wasn’t just the head, it was everything connected to the head. When I was young I worked on a ranch and did my share of mucking so I was past the “Ick Factor.” It seemed like a Compost Head might work for me. I pinged CruisersForum asking for people who had one, would they do it again? About 50 unique answers from CH owners, and 100 or so hyperbolic responses from folks who were aghast at the idea (pretty sure at least a couple had some trauma during potty-training). Of the 50 owners, one was neutral, 49 were some version of enthusiastic “hell yea – never go back!” Then I started to realize how may threads there are on malfunctioning head systems and and how the stars must align for a joyful relationship with your head. I decided to give it a whirl. So far so good.

Usage
It’s important to keep moisture from the solids’ bin so men really should sit when peeing. Even though I make it a habit to sit when underway, it’s been a small adjustment. Afterwards, a couple sprits from a spray bottle with vinegar and water chases any residual urine into the bottle.

For solids, you open a fairly large trap door and let it fly. Close the trap door and rotate the churn a few times to bury the deposit and you’re done with that part. But…what about TP? While you could just put it in the solids’ bin, my guess is 99% of Compost Head users put it in a separate waste basket. Why? Without water and moisture, the paper will not really break down. While it’s not mandatory, I would say its recommended. Another learning-curve for me even though I’ve spent more time in Mexico than the US over the last 2-years.

Emptying and maintenance
With two people aboard, the urine bottle needs to be emptied every couple days. Now, I’m expecting someone to react negatively to this but I’ll say it anyway. I dump it overboard. Urine is almost entirely inert, though I’ll concede that while it’s legal to pee overboard, few people pee 2-gals at a time so maybe it makes a difference. Personally, I believe that if you’re not comfortable doing this, a Compost Head is too much trouble.

The solids bin is a bit more work. For a couple aboard, it needs to be emptied every 3-4 weeks. Amazingly, while it has an earthy smell, it is not objectionable. The biggest hassle is the lower half of the head has to be removed and inverted over a plastic bag. The bin is then re-charged with fresh media. Process takes about 15-20 minutes and needs to be done 12-15 times per year for full-timers, so compare to pump-outs. The contents are then deposited in the trash like dog poo; or could be dumped onto non-edible landscaping.

Closing
Clearly, this is a niche solution, especially for the TF crowd who are older, a bit more well-heeled, and with larger boats. It probably seems like camping and in a way I see the point. I’ve listed my best guess at Advantages/Disadvantages – some of the disadvantages are real deal-killers (Ick Factor). I think the ultimate setup for a 2-head boat is one compost, one traditional. As mentioned at the opening, I’m not going to pretend to persuade. Just offer my perspective.

Click image for larger version

Name:	Compost Head plus minus.jpg
Views:	71
Size:	90.0 KB
ID:	136863
__________________
_______________________________________
Cruising our 1970 Willard 36 trawler from California to Florida
Join our Instagram page @MVWeebles to follow along
mvweebles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2023, 06:42 PM   #2
Guru
 
ssobol's Avatar
 
City: Southwest MI
Vessel Name: Sobelle
Vessel Model: C-Dory 22 Cruiser
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,229
Urine is hardly inert and is not, as widely believed, sterile. Think about it. If everything else that comes out of a human body is a biohazard, why would urine be any different?

There are metabolites of whatever drugs you are taking, naturally occurring bacteria, and compounds like ammonia and urea. Ammonia is highly reactive with a lot of things. Urea (in DEF) is used to clean the exhaust emissions of diesel engines, can't do that if it is inert.

As an example, the reefs in the vicinity of Key West have been heavily damaged from all the urine released by reef snorkeling trips. Now they tell you not to pee on the reef.

Here's a simple test. Simply pee in your toilet and do not flush (an enclosed head helps). Come back in 12-24 hours. Notice the smell. If urine was inert, it would not smell any different after 24 hours from when it was first "dispensed".
ssobol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2023, 07:14 PM   #3
Guru
 
mvweebles's Avatar
 
City: Saint Petersburg
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 7,179
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssobol View Post
Urine is hardly inert and is not, as widely believed, sterile. Think about it. If everything else that comes out of a human body is a biohazard, why would urine be any different?

There are metabolites of whatever drugs you are taking, naturally occurring bacteria, and compounds like ammonia and urea. Ammonia is highly reactive with a lot of things. Urea (in DEF) is used to clean the exhaust emissions of diesel engines, can't do that if it is inert.

As an example, the reefs in the vicinity of Key West have been heavily damaged from all the urine released by reef snorkeling trips. Now they tell you not to pee on the reef.

Here's a simple test. Simply pee in your toilet and do not flush (an enclosed head helps). Come back in 12-24 hours. Notice the smell. If urine was inert, it would not smell any different after 24 hours from when it was first "dispensed".
I purposefully avoided the word "Sterile" though perhaps "inert" is imperfect too. Best I can tell, urine has urea and some bacteria though not bad bacteria unless the person is unhealthy. I hate the "two wrongs make a right" argument, but of all the crap boats wash into the water, urine has a relatively low toxicity. Which is why it's not illegal to pee off a boat (though holding the pee for more than a handful of days is a different story).

Peter
__________________
_______________________________________
Cruising our 1970 Willard 36 trawler from California to Florida
Join our Instagram page @MVWeebles to follow along
mvweebles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2023, 07:18 PM   #4
Guru
 
ssobol's Avatar
 
City: Southwest MI
Vessel Name: Sobelle
Vessel Model: C-Dory 22 Cruiser
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,229
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvweebles View Post
... and some bacteria though not bad bacteria unless the person is unhealthy...
Whether bacteria is good or bad depends on the situation and environment. E. Coli is a naturally occurring bacteria. In lots of situations it does no harm. Get certain strains of it inside you and you'll have a different opinion.
ssobol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2023, 07:29 PM   #5
Guru
 
mvweebles's Avatar
 
City: Saint Petersburg
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 7,179
I know e-coli causes urinary tract infections, but is e-coli commonly found in urine of an otherwise healthy person? Is it a risk to human or aquatic life, or both? I thought the e-coli risk was from feces where contamination risk approaches 100% if you consume even tiny amounts of fecal matter through improper hygiene.

I'm no expert and have done a fair amount of online research so I'd be interested in something that desribe the risks of dumping urine. It would make a difference in how I handle it. Best I can tell, the risk is extremely low in the concentrations a boat might produce - on par with what washes off the decks of many boats.

Peter
__________________
_______________________________________
Cruising our 1970 Willard 36 trawler from California to Florida
Join our Instagram page @MVWeebles to follow along
mvweebles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2023, 08:02 PM   #6
Veteran Member
 
mmullins's Avatar
 
City: Knoxville
Vessel Name: VroOom! VroOom!
Vessel Model: 2000 Formula 41 PC
Join Date: Aug 2021
Posts: 61
mvweebles- thanks for the comprehensive and informative post on a very relevant topic. I'm thinking about installing one in my forward head this Spring. This would give me one Lectrasan and one composting head.BTW, a single Fin whale urinates approimately 260 gallons into the ocean a day. Nearly twice what the average human urinates in a year.
mmullins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2023, 08:28 PM   #7
Guru
 
O C Diver's Avatar
 
City: Fort Myers, FL... Summers in the Great Lakes
Vessel Name: Slow Hand
Vessel Model: Cherubini Independence 45
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 12,835
So the question I would ask is, "would you replace the toilets in your house with these?" Think of the water savings for the environment and never having to repair a broken home toilet.

While some boat manufacturers do a poor job when it comes to a head, associated plumbing, and holding tank size, I think the best systems beat a litter box hands down.

Ted
__________________
Blog: mvslowhand.com
I'm tired of fast moves, I've got a slow groove, on my mind.....
I want to spend some time, Not come and go in a heated rush.....
"Slow Hand" by The Pointer Sisters
O C Diver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2023, 08:36 PM   #8
Arc
Guru
 
City: Long island
Vessel Model: Eastern
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 633
Anyone concerned about pee in the ocean should never ever swim in a pool
Arc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2023, 08:46 PM   #9
Guru
 
mvweebles's Avatar
 
City: Saint Petersburg
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 7,179
Quote:
Originally Posted by O C Diver View Post
So the question I would ask is, "would you replace the toilets in your house with these?" Think of the water savings for the environment and never having to repair a broken home toilet.



While some boat manufacturers do a poor job when it comes to a head, associated plumbing, and holding tank size, I think the best systems beat a litter box hands down.



Ted
All I can say is that was not my experience. If a marine head was as predictable and trouble free as my home toilets, would never have even looked for a solution for there would be no problem.

I realize there are those who have a trouble-free, odor-free relationship with their boats head. Head problems are a top 10 common thread on most boating forums. Whenever someone asks for advice on their head, the answers are always the same - as if the owner skipped a base. I just never felt like I could get everything to work just right at the same time. Always felt like a game of 3-card Monty on Canal Street. No matter what I did, I lost.

So I took a different direction.

Peter
__________________
_______________________________________
Cruising our 1970 Willard 36 trawler from California to Florida
Join our Instagram page @MVWeebles to follow along
mvweebles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2023, 09:05 PM   #10
Senior Member
 
heysteve's Avatar
 
Vessel Model: 1984 Sunnfjord 42
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 154
Nice write-up! We converted to an Air Head last year and are happy with the solution. It definitely had a learning curve but have now figured it out. We removed the internal mixing bar as it was a pain to clean and now just use a large kitchen spoon to add coco coir after usage. We also keep a supply of heavy-duty construction bags on-hand for holding the used material as having that bag tear open would really ruin your day.

I might add that anybody really squeamish should probably stay away from Mexico... or at least never leave the resort. The sewer systems can't handle TP so there's always a basket next the toilet for used TP. It a bit shocking when first encountered but soon becomes normal.

Also, the pump-out facilities down here are typically not very convenient. Self-serve facilities are very rare. Sometimes you call the marina and they send a couple guys over with some kind of homemade device to do it for you. Other times you go to a dedicated pump-out dock and hope it's actually working... an unlocked
heysteve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2023, 09:36 PM   #11
Guru
 
SteveK's Avatar
 
City: Gulf Islands, BC Canada
Vessel Name: Sea Sanctuary
Vessel Model: Bayliner 4588
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 5,017
Indoor outhouse, who woulda thunk it. Gross
No Thanks
__________________
SteveK
You only need one working engine. That is why I have two.
Sea Sanctuary-new to me 1992 Bayliner 4588
SteveK is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2023, 10:17 PM   #12
Senior Member
 
City: Davis, California
Vessel Name: Off Leash
Vessel Model: Helmsman 38e
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 207
Excellent summary

Wanted to chime in here. Not because we have thought about this conversion (spouse opposed at this point), but because this was a great explanation of the nuances of a technology that is great for some and too much of a yuk factor for others. Thanks Weebles. That was a terrific post.



Among my previous tribe (Ranger Tugs) a lot of the most progressive, techno-savvy members went this way and loved it.



Again, a thorough, balanced, and informative post. Everything on a boat involves some kind of transaction cost. Is the cost worth it? For some, yes.
__________________
Time and tides wait for no one. It is just a whole lot easier to deal with both if you are in a boat.
Hydraulicjump is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2023, 10:28 PM   #13
Senior Member
 
wfleenor's Avatar
 
City: Scappoose, OR
Vessel Name: Double-Wide
Vessel Model: 49ft Custom Power Catamaran
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 127
That was, indeed, and excellent write up of your experience with the head. You are most correct in that it is not a composting head, but a desiccating solids head. Composting is done with moisture, not in the absence of moisture. As the founding adviser to an Engineers Without Borders chapter at a major west-coast university, I have built dozens of urine-diversion, solids-desiccating heads in Central America, South America, and Africa. They are quite well-suited to any environment where water is scarce. The urine is an excellent fertilizer and the desiccated solids, after composting, are a great soil amendment. While I would not put one on my boat, I can see that they would be quite suitable for many others.
wfleenor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2023, 12:12 AM   #14
Moderator Emeritus
 
Comodave's Avatar
 
City: Au Gres, MI
Vessel Name: Black Dog
Vessel Model: Formula 41PC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 21,191
Or just go with a Marine Elegance head…
__________________
Boat Nut:
If you are one there is no explanation necessary.
If you aren’t one, there is no explanation possible.
Comodave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2023, 02:44 AM   #15
TF Site Team
 
City: Ex-Brisbane, (Australia), now Bribie Island, Qld
Vessel Name: Now boatless - sold 6/2018
Vessel Model: Had a Clipper (CHB) 34
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,101
Peter (Weebles), I had quite a chuckle at reading this thread. Especially your first explanatory post. I so relate to why you've done what I eventually did. No, not composting toilet - which as everyone agrees, does not actually compost.

My original experience with boat toilets was when we had a trailer yacht. It had a camping type toilet, but a poor and clumsy design, so we bought a true Porta Potti. It worked, but was never quite ideal either. I realise with the benefit oif hindsight that was because we didn't have a boat big enough to have a separate toilet cubicle.

When we bought our first diesel cruiser, a Cuddles 35, it was in charter via a company, so there were tax writ-off benefits so we left it with them, and we just booked it when we wanted it. In many ways a great way to own a boat - until we found out why not. It had a plumbed in toilet which we thought was fantastic - that is until the first time we encountered a blocked one (by a charter family), not picked up by the team who managed the charter side of things. Fortunately there were two toilets aboard, but the main one was the blocked one. The other was in the master cabin en suite. Not good..! And that was back in the old days when pump over the side was the norm.

Then we bought a CHB (Clipper) 34 which also had a proper manual marine toilet. Beauty we thought. Until it too blocked and refused to work..! So, I lashed out and bought a brand new, large bowl, electric toilet. Trouble is, by then pump over the side was banned and one had to have a holding tank. A 1975 era trawler was never designed to cater for that. Never mind - I can do this I said. So I placed a Turtle Pack bladder type tank under the engine room floor, did all the necessary plumbing, including a macerator pump which claimed to self-prime for up to 1.5m. Ok, well, it never did. I won't take up the space to describe what I have to do to get it to actually pump out, however for a time it worked as we hoped for - until a point was reached when it didn't. Also we found many marinas did not want to actually pump it out because it contained salt water flush, and many plumbed sewerage reticulations do not want salt water in their systems as it kills the good bacteria.

Here's the funny bit. After endless excursions down-under to sort out blockages and all the other issues that toilet plumbing creates, I finally decided that was it. I was done with such torture. I purchased what was sort of a Rolls Royce version of a camping toilet. Fixed it so it was stable in a seaway...and...sigh...bliss..! No blockages, lasted over a week before emptying needed. No odours thanks to a special additive, and the lower holding tank cassette could be merely emptied into the marina toilets as it used only fresh water for flushing.

We found that the main benefit in a proper boat toilet is the privacy and the plumbing for the shower and hand basin, not the type of toilet..! Ok, I'm sure Headmistress will have something to say here, but I kid you not. The sheer relief of the simplicity and no toilet plumbing or need for a special holding tank is a huge winner. So, if you get tired of the composting toilet Peter..? Sure not the answer for larger boats with more passengers, but worked for us... 👍 😊
__________________
Pete
Peter B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2023, 08:24 AM   #16
Guru
 
CaptTom's Avatar
 
City: Southern Maine
Vessel Model: Prairie 36 Coastal Cruiser
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,717
Thanks for an honest review of this technology. So often we see wildly biased views from both sides. The reality is always somewhere in between.

My only quibble would be with the word "composting." I find that term a bit disingenuous, chosen to appeal to a certain demographic rather than for accuracy.
CaptTom is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2023, 09:05 AM   #17
TF Site Team
 
koliver's Avatar
 
City: Saltspring Island
Vessel Name: Retreat
Vessel Model: C&L 44
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arc View Post
Anyone concerned about pee in the ocean should never ever swim in a pool
Given a choice between a pool and the ocean, we always swim in the ocean.
Pools are for little kids to pee in, like it or not.
__________________
Keith
koliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2023, 09:14 AM   #18
Guru
 
mvweebles's Avatar
 
City: Saint Petersburg
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 7,179
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptTom View Post
Thanks for an honest review of this technology. So often we see wildly biased views from both sides. The reality is always somewhere in between.

My only quibble would be with the word "composting." I find that term a bit disingenuous, chosen to appeal to a certain demographic rather than for accuracy.
I'm pretty sure the term is an evolution of technology, not a marketing choice. When I was in my early 20s, I devoured self-sufficiency material like Foxfire books and Mother Earth News. Compost Toilets were very popular. Sunmar still makes a self-contained Compost Toilet HERE. There is a slide-out tray where the finished compost is removed. I doubt they work very well, but they are/were true composting toilets. If you watch one of the videos on their website, looks to be a 40-year old video that showing peat moss to start the process. Clearly, a predecessor to the urine-diversion head.
Name:  Sunmar Compost Toilet.jpg
Views: 370
Size:  5.6 KB

Airhead, a direct competitor to Natures Head (they are extremely similar) states on their website that they pioneered urine diversion in 2001. Sunmar now offers a urine-diversion head in their lineup too.

I really don't think there was any intent to mis-represent. These heads are a direct extension of what has been known as compost heads for decades. The folks who work in this field are not prone to grand marketing statements, nor are their buyers swayed by lofty claims. My take is it's just an evolution of terminology that make perfect sense in the context of how the products developed.

BTW - if I had room and power, I would definltely look at Incinolet incinerating toilet that reduces waste to ash. TF's Lepke is an enthusiastic proponent and it makes a lot of sense. For you folks with larger boats, I'm surprised they are not more common.

Peter
__________________
_______________________________________
Cruising our 1970 Willard 36 trawler from California to Florida
Join our Instagram page @MVWeebles to follow along
mvweebles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2023, 09:28 AM   #19
Guru
 
mvweebles's Avatar
 
City: Saint Petersburg
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 7,179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Comodave View Post
Or just go with a Marine Elegance head…
I was close to pulling the trigger on a Marine Elegance. Peggie Hall was quite generous with her time and we chatted a couple times. But in all candor, my issues have only been only partially related to the head itself. Most of the issues are with the stuff that's hidden from view - hoses, tanks, valves, through-hulls, pumps, vents, fittings, etc. Configuration and layout needs to be just-right to avoid longish hose runs with dips and curves. And then there are tank-size considerations to give time between pump-outs. From where I sat making a decision, a lot needed to go right without much margin for error. In the end, when I reflected on how much time I've spent repairing head systems over 25-years, it seemed like a 'moon shot' for me. So I said the hell with it - I'm trying something different, something simple. So far, so good.

The biggest knock against Compost Heads are perception issues - the litter box or what I call the Ick Factor thing. I totally understand that perception is reality. But if you can set these aside and really think through what problem is being solved - reliable disposal of human waste in confined quarters (RV or Boat), a Compost Head or Incinerating Head starts to tick a lot of boxes.

Peter
__________________
_______________________________________
Cruising our 1970 Willard 36 trawler from California to Florida
Join our Instagram page @MVWeebles to follow along
mvweebles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2023, 10:46 AM   #20
Guru
 
City: Newport, R.I.
Vessel Name: Hippocampus
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 42
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 3,893
For anyone who does passages the composing heads have difficulties

Compare direct overboard once outside the 3 m limit to having to dump urine and/or feces from a pitching deck. Although multiple types of media are acceptable to use they be difficult to find once off the beaten track. There’s never enough storage space on a boat and the media should be kept dry. y valves are good thing for some. Figure 4 people peeing up a storm you’re going to need to empty the pee bucket. Maybe not the poop but get one or two crew with the runs that as well.

Agree in a pure coastal setting they may make sense. No holding tank so more room. No significant servicing. And no limitations as regards no discharge zones. But urine isn’t either inert nor sterile. Would think dumping it in a no discharge zone would be illegal. Even ground water is sufficiently contaminated by hormones, drugs and biohazards from humans as to affect flora and fauna. In strong currents or sufficiently offshore would think there’s sufficient dilution but have been in many coastal settings where that’s not true. Of course i lakes (unless the Great Lakes) it’s not true.

So agree if you have the electricity incinerating toilets make sense. If you’re coastal perhaps composting. Otherwise we’re stuck with the same old same old. I currently hate traditional as I’m trying to diagnose and fix an air leak. But it’s a boat.
Hippocampus is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Trawler Port Captains
Port Captains are TF volunteers who can serve as local guides or assist with local arrangements and information. Search below to locate Port Captains near your destination. To learn more about this program read here: TF Port Captain Program





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:46 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012