Caution bad surveyer in San Francisco Bay Area
- Thread starter Mattie69
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gsholz
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I'd be very careful unless you have iron clad proof of intent to defraud.
You'd hope a surveyor would find major seaworthiness issues but don't expect them to find all the small hidden issues.
You'd hope a surveyor would find major seaworthiness issues but don't expect them to find all the small hidden issues.
Last edited:
wkearney99
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There's a fine line between discussing questionable practices and libeling someone. It's one thing to ask "is x, y or z a problem" versus saying "joe schmoe caused x, y or z problems".
So what was done/not done during this survey that has raised your concerns?
Because sometimes what people expect is different than what might be considered usual and customary practices in a given area.
So what was done/not done during this survey that has raised your concerns?
Because sometimes what people expect is different than what might be considered usual and customary practices in a given area.
Alaskan Sea-Duction
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Comodave
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Unfortunately with todays society, I would be very careful about posting a name. It could get you sued.
wkearney99
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I don't think there's any more "today's society" than at any other time. Really, let's not drag the thread off in that direction.
Comodave
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In what direction are you referring? I didn’t mean anything like that. I was just saying that you might get sued if you posted a name because everyone wants to sue. If that is a bad direction then I didn’t mean it that way.
twistedtree
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There is no libel or slander if something is factually true. So talk away, but just be very careful that everything is demonstrably factual and true, not your opinion, interpretation, or otherwise.
RT Firefly
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Greetings,
Mr. 69. Also keep in mind that every survey I've ever seen has a disclaimer somewhere in the wording. Something to the effect of "I'm not liable for anything I missed." In other words....You took your chances, paid your money and lost.
Mr. 69. Also keep in mind that every survey I've ever seen has a disclaimer somewhere in the wording. Something to the effect of "I'm not liable for anything I missed." In other words....You took your chances, paid your money and lost.
Just a caution before this thread goes the wrong way - Per TF Community Rules - This is not the place for drawing attention to a dispute with a third party
Dealer/Vendor and Customer Disputes
This forum is not intended to be a mechanism for people to solely vent frustrations about vendors or sales from private parties. Please settle your differences with the seller, manufacturer and dealer through other means but not through our community.
Dealer/Vendor and Customer Disputes
This forum is not intended to be a mechanism for people to solely vent frustrations about vendors or sales from private parties. Please settle your differences with the seller, manufacturer and dealer through other means but not through our community.
Woodland Hills
Guru
So true, all you will need to do is hire an attorney to argue that in court as I am sure that the Surveyor in question will disagree. There is nothing MORE disputable than “facts”. Who has the deepest pockets: you or him?
Clearly you're showing your vendetta, desire for vengeance and vindictiveness by posting on multiple forums with the same issue. I doubt seriously anything rises to the level of fraud, and, if it does, file criminal charges but don't go blasting on a forum. That's a serious accusation and far beyond failure to perform, one you better have proof of. Stating what happened is one thing. Calling it fraudulent without proof will rise to the level of slander quickly.
I think so far you're showing far more about yourself than the surveyor and the impression isn't good. From the other forum, I saw you're intending on running paid classified ads. Wow is all I can say. Definitely not in the Christmas spirit.
CapeWhaler
Veteran Member
All good advice, especially #8. I've bought two boats with recent 'good' surveys, including my current one, where I subsequently found a number of what I considered fairly important fixit items. And yes, I'd looked over the boats carefully myself before purchase, but they were bought from a distance and my ability for a detailed inspection was limited. But in neither case could I say the surveyor was negligent or fraudulent - he just didn't note things I later found and thought were important.
Perhaps more worrisome, I found a similar situation in general aviation: most IAs (inspection approved mechanics) do a competent job, some are detail-focused to the point of being anal (a good thing!), but a few are happy to pencil whip off an annual inspection as long as they get a check.
Joe
Perhaps more worrisome, I found a similar situation in general aviation: most IAs (inspection approved mechanics) do a competent job, some are detail-focused to the point of being anal (a good thing!), but a few are happy to pencil whip off an annual inspection as long as they get a check.
Joe
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OP asked, which forum, this one I would say, its the one that comes up the most on a search of 'surveyor' and it is also one of the most viewed on the site. There is no risk in relating the facts of your experience and people on here can provide good feedback on whether or just how rotten it is. I suggest leave the name out for now, who wants to know can PM you.
bligh
Guru
Just post the survey for us to see and tell us what they did wrong. I would certainly want to know what surveyors to stay away from in my area (sfbay). This good economy, unfortunately, allows scoundrels to flourish.
warfdog
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I would suggest you have a discussion on what to “expect of a surveyor and what to use as a survey agreement/checklist”, instead of blaming the surveyor for a regrettable purchase decision. Did he/she fail to disclose any material defects that should have been detected or was there some other malfeasance? What should your expectations of a qualified surveyor consist of?
When I purchased ‘Voyager’ last year, a 40-year old 39’ TT, I used a reputable licensed surveyor for the hull survey but was unable to find any reputable surveyor for the engine/genset, but did find a semi-retired engine guy who claimed to be qualified to survey the mechanicals.
The general surveyor did accurately assess the hull which was solid, but he/she held short of a full critique of the conditions that could have significantly complicated insuring the boat. This was not really discussed but seem it should have been.
Could have said “engine stringers probably rotting away, fuel tanks rusted and likely to fail soon, and teak decks will leak like a sieve”. That would be a safe statement for any 40 year old TT, but would have condemned an otherwise very nicely maintained and updated purchase for me.
My engine surveyor never delivered a report other than a verbal ‘nice boat’. No oil analysis result (that I paid for), no condition report on the engine or genset, etc. I would say he materially failed to perform, though he did visit the boat pre-purchase and took oil and coolant samples. Months post-purchase he did leave me a message about “settling up”. I asked him what his additional expenses were and where the oil/coolant analysis results were, despite by this point having no bearing on my purchase. I also asked him to say what he thought the value of his service was. He said the analysis had all been lost in the wildfires that destroyed his property - maybe why he didn’t deliver on the survey. I was open to partially compensate him for his time but not his full fee. Never heard back.
Point is, a fully critical survey would have eliminated any options to insure, dock, or if needed finance. A total failure to deliver a correct and complete survey does not justify anything other than non-payment. But it’s not like my surveyor was collaborating with the seller to trick me. To me, only that kind of conspiracy would justify legal action against both seller and surveyor.
When I purchased ‘Voyager’ last year, a 40-year old 39’ TT, I used a reputable licensed surveyor for the hull survey but was unable to find any reputable surveyor for the engine/genset, but did find a semi-retired engine guy who claimed to be qualified to survey the mechanicals.
The general surveyor did accurately assess the hull which was solid, but he/she held short of a full critique of the conditions that could have significantly complicated insuring the boat. This was not really discussed but seem it should have been.
Could have said “engine stringers probably rotting away, fuel tanks rusted and likely to fail soon, and teak decks will leak like a sieve”. That would be a safe statement for any 40 year old TT, but would have condemned an otherwise very nicely maintained and updated purchase for me.
My engine surveyor never delivered a report other than a verbal ‘nice boat’. No oil analysis result (that I paid for), no condition report on the engine or genset, etc. I would say he materially failed to perform, though he did visit the boat pre-purchase and took oil and coolant samples. Months post-purchase he did leave me a message about “settling up”. I asked him what his additional expenses were and where the oil/coolant analysis results were, despite by this point having no bearing on my purchase. I also asked him to say what he thought the value of his service was. He said the analysis had all been lost in the wildfires that destroyed his property - maybe why he didn’t deliver on the survey. I was open to partially compensate him for his time but not his full fee. Never heard back.
Point is, a fully critical survey would have eliminated any options to insure, dock, or if needed finance. A total failure to deliver a correct and complete survey does not justify anything other than non-payment. But it’s not like my surveyor was collaborating with the seller to trick me. To me, only that kind of conspiracy would justify legal action against both seller and surveyor.
Interesting question for all.
I know nothing about the surveyor in question or even who it is or what was allegedly done.
However,
I do know this about the person calling the surveyor names that unless he could prove in a court would be considered slander. I know the terms he's using. I know he's posting the same question, same words, on multiple forums and other places. I know he's taking out paid classified ads for a year in two places to attack the surveyor.
Now, without any more information or knowledge who has the most credibility in your mind at this point?
I can think of two cases of people going on wild rampages against builders with highly vitriolic and inflamed posts on multiple sites and even building websites of their own. I know a lot about both builders and know some part of what was posted is reflective of those builders. However, the way in which they were done quickly destroyed the credibility of the poster and the allegedly harmed boat buyer. In one case it even ended up in court and in spite of some good evidence the court found the behavior of the buyer so egregious in nature as to rule completely in favor of the builder.
There are ways of criticizing and exposing without going too far. Words like "fraudulent" are immediately slanderous against an individual unless you can prove fraud, as in the crime of fraud. Doing a horrible job. Charging too much. Failing to discover something. None of those things are fraud. Calling someone a crook if they've not committed a crime is dangerous.
State facts clearly and best without names. State what are your opinions as well, but make it clear those are opinions and don't use words like thief, stole from me, crook, fraud, criminal. If any of those things happened call the police or engage an attorney and go to court. There are fraudulent businessmen but social media and forums are not the place to deal with them. Opinions are protected but only to the extent they are based on reasonable information.
Anger is not well used for vendettas. Best used to take time, compose oneself, then figure out the best approach. I would also suggest before using any names in truly forceful accusations that can't be supported by facts, one is very careful and even gets an attorney to review in advance. Also, even if you're 100% right in your mind, be thoughtful of how deep your pockets are and how much legal expense you can afford. I can point out a struggling photographer who lost her business but gained wealth at the expense of a blogger. I can point out a horrible restaurant that should have gone out of business and likely would have where the owners got wealthy because of a coach and his wife making a public statement they couldn't substantiate.
I've been around long enough to have been wronged, to have chosen to never do business again with some, but never to have devoted the level of energy I see some do to trying to somehow seek revenge.
Revenge, when coated with anger, can make one go blind to their own welfare.
I know nothing about the surveyor in question or even who it is or what was allegedly done.
However,
I do know this about the person calling the surveyor names that unless he could prove in a court would be considered slander. I know the terms he's using. I know he's posting the same question, same words, on multiple forums and other places. I know he's taking out paid classified ads for a year in two places to attack the surveyor.
Now, without any more information or knowledge who has the most credibility in your mind at this point?
I can think of two cases of people going on wild rampages against builders with highly vitriolic and inflamed posts on multiple sites and even building websites of their own. I know a lot about both builders and know some part of what was posted is reflective of those builders. However, the way in which they were done quickly destroyed the credibility of the poster and the allegedly harmed boat buyer. In one case it even ended up in court and in spite of some good evidence the court found the behavior of the buyer so egregious in nature as to rule completely in favor of the builder.
There are ways of criticizing and exposing without going too far. Words like "fraudulent" are immediately slanderous against an individual unless you can prove fraud, as in the crime of fraud. Doing a horrible job. Charging too much. Failing to discover something. None of those things are fraud. Calling someone a crook if they've not committed a crime is dangerous.
State facts clearly and best without names. State what are your opinions as well, but make it clear those are opinions and don't use words like thief, stole from me, crook, fraud, criminal. If any of those things happened call the police or engage an attorney and go to court. There are fraudulent businessmen but social media and forums are not the place to deal with them. Opinions are protected but only to the extent they are based on reasonable information.
Anger is not well used for vendettas. Best used to take time, compose oneself, then figure out the best approach. I would also suggest before using any names in truly forceful accusations that can't be supported by facts, one is very careful and even gets an attorney to review in advance. Also, even if you're 100% right in your mind, be thoughtful of how deep your pockets are and how much legal expense you can afford. I can point out a struggling photographer who lost her business but gained wealth at the expense of a blogger. I can point out a horrible restaurant that should have gone out of business and likely would have where the owners got wealthy because of a coach and his wife making a public statement they couldn't substantiate.
I've been around long enough to have been wronged, to have chosen to never do business again with some, but never to have devoted the level of energy I see some do to trying to somehow seek revenge.
Revenge, when coated with anger, can make one go blind to their own welfare.
Xsbank
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Surveyors, at least in Canada, are like home inspectors; only somewhat useful for the clueless. Anybody who trusts a person who first disclaims any responsibility for incompetence or a lack of due diligence or for just plain ignorance, doesn’t deserve your time. Pay your $1000 to some goof who has set himself up in business without any credentials? There is no credible credentials for surveyors like a degree or a real professional association like engineers or doctors. One of my best friends is a very competent surveyor but his credentials are thousands of hours rebuilding and captaining tugs of all sizes.
How do you know if whom you have hired is any good? You don’t. Boating is complicated, expensive and can be dangerous - the only safe way to proceed is by self-education with a large dose of fingers crossed. Merry Christmas!
How do you know if whom you have hired is any good? You don’t. Boating is complicated, expensive and can be dangerous - the only safe way to proceed is by self-education with a large dose of fingers crossed. Merry Christmas!
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Excellent post BandB, and as the OP appears to have shot through anyway - perhaps having taken the hint that the right place to post is not here - I respectfully suggest we let this item rest right here.
OldDan1943
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I cant say I was 'in love' with my surveyor. He had the necessary credentials but, I never questioned his experience. He was trained at Chapman's. I can think of one thing he missed. I pointed it out and it was quickly corrected. I did not have an engine survey because there was only about 100 hours on the engine and even less on the generator.
What the surveyor did determine was the hull was sound. The sea trial was uneventful.... but, did not compare to the sea trial a potential buyer of my N46.
The buyer changed his mind but, I did get a free bottom pressure wash.
One recommendation is; follow the surveyor around and ask LOTS of questions, Study the written results, ask more questions if you wish.
What the surveyor did determine was the hull was sound. The sea trial was uneventful.... but, did not compare to the sea trial a potential buyer of my N46.
The buyer changed his mind but, I did get a free bottom pressure wash.
One recommendation is; follow the surveyor around and ask LOTS of questions, Study the written results, ask more questions if you wish.
BruceK
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Yes,we seem to have lost the OP. Too bad, he has an interesting profile, including a liking for projects.
Why not post the survey, including contractual exclusions, plus subsequent investigations and/or repairs of the areas of concern. People can form their own opinions and the OP will have discharged the expectation TF members will share knowledge. Assuming TF allows it, considering its own position.
Why not post the survey, including contractual exclusions, plus subsequent investigations and/or repairs of the areas of concern. People can form their own opinions and the OP will have discharged the expectation TF members will share knowledge. Assuming TF allows it, considering its own position.
Unfortunately, in regard to the posts I read, [believe I read em all] not one mention I noticed of what the surveyor missed or did??!!
Irrespective of "who" the surveyor actually was/is [cause I could care less - seeing as I always cover my own ass anyway]; what I'd like to learn is what was/were the incorrect survey actions/results.
Reason I'd like to learn those increments about a boat survey is simply that [while I continue to cover my own ass] I will have those items in my memory bank... so I can best gain success in "covering my own ass"!!
Happy Boat-Survey Daze! - Art
Irrespective of "who" the surveyor actually was/is [cause I could care less - seeing as I always cover my own ass anyway]; what I'd like to learn is what was/were the incorrect survey actions/results.
Reason I'd like to learn those increments about a boat survey is simply that [while I continue to cover my own ass] I will have those items in my memory bank... so I can best gain success in "covering my own ass"!!
Happy Boat-Survey Daze! - Art
Salish Nomad
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We have used the services of three surveyors in our area, Anacortes WA, and were happy with all. We would, and likely will use them again.
I'm a lucky fellow regarding surveys/surveyors on boats, road vehicles and buildings. In that - My inventive mind is extremely mechanically inclined as well as having good capability to suss out circumstances of nearly any deal in which I'm entailed. Bassically, I was born with an engineer's brain complemented by a lawyer's intellect.
That said: I don't rely on any surveyor of any type to solve the requirements a survey consists of. I do however listen closely to their input. If a surveyor does not please me before survey begins or while survey is proceeding - I remove them!
Another feature I learned in life was to be able to walk away when it is proper to do, needed to do.
For my knowledge, I would like to learn not the name of the surveyor but rather the lackluster actions/results of the survey.
I feel those [with the perpetrator left nameless] items would be good for all boat owners to know about.
That said: I don't rely on any surveyor of any type to solve the requirements a survey consists of. I do however listen closely to their input. If a surveyor does not please me before survey begins or while survey is proceeding - I remove them!
Another feature I learned in life was to be able to walk away when it is proper to do, needed to do.
For my knowledge, I would like to learn not the name of the surveyor but rather the lackluster actions/results of the survey.
I feel those [with the perpetrator left nameless] items would be good for all boat owners to know about.
caltexflanc
Guru
I make a habit of vetting surveyors extensively, including talking directly with people who have used or have first hand experience with them. This takes some work. Whenever I see some of the negative comments about surveyors, I see people who have failed to do their due diligence.
psneeld
Guru
Or an unrealistic idea of what they really are capable of doing in a nondestructive survey.....sometimes.
They are like having to go to a GP for a referral to a specialist....when you know what's wrong but still need to follow insurance guidelines.
They are like having to go to a GP for a referral to a specialist....when you know what's wrong but still need to follow insurance guidelines.
Having read nearly two pages of this thread I feel as though I have learned very little about trawlers in the process.
Seems like maybe we were or I was trolled?
Unless the OP gets back involved here this is a pretty meaningless exercise. I think board members offered constructive feedback that would hopefully settle down the OP and have the OP interact in a safer and more thoughtful way, yet the OP is gone?
To the OP- Are you trying to help us, or are you trying to help yourself?
Bill
Seems like maybe we were or I was trolled?
Unless the OP gets back involved here this is a pretty meaningless exercise. I think board members offered constructive feedback that would hopefully settle down the OP and have the OP interact in a safer and more thoughtful way, yet the OP is gone?
To the OP- Are you trying to help us, or are you trying to help yourself?
Bill
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