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Old 03-29-2020, 01:58 PM   #1
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Cat 3208 oil filters

My 1978 Tolly 48 has two CAT 3208 N/A engines installed. Each engine has two oil filters, mounted upside down on a common mounting base at the rear of the engines. Am I correct in assuming, once the engine has shut down, that the oil contained in each filter drains back into the sump? If not, how in the heck do you remove the filter(s) without dumping a quart or so of dirty oil all over the engine?

And I am familiar with common tricks like poking a hole in the top of the filter can, to ensure there is no vacuum holding oil into the filter, prior to unscrewing it. And covering filter w/small trash bag or freezer bag to contain the mess. And poking a hole in the bottom of the filter to ensure drainage, which also makes a mess, but perhaps a controllable one.

And the obvious related question-I presume if the filters are NOT full at startup, as the oil has drained back into the crankcase, that I don't have to pre-fill the new filters prior to installation.

This'll be my 1st oil change on this new-to-me boat. I've done many, many filter changes in the past on other engines, but never been confronted with an upside-down filter before, which seems to me to be a REALLY STUPID design idea.

Note that my period-correct CAT engine manual seems to be somewhat generic (not marine specific, for instance) in that it shows only a single filter, mounted upright on a side-hung bracket. Not at all like my installation.

Regards,

Pete
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Old 03-29-2020, 02:08 PM   #2
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I don't have your engine, but I have a similar arrangement. Check for a drain plug somewhere in the bottom of the base that the filters screw on to. I didn't find my drains until my 2nd DIY oil change. Yes, I made a heck of a mess the first one.

Greg.
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Old 03-29-2020, 03:58 PM   #3
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I would assume that a significant amount of oil is still in the filter. This way if you are wrong no harm no mess. I like tapping holes in the oil filters and draining them first, makes less mess in the long run.
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Old 03-29-2020, 04:16 PM   #4
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I have a similar filter and tried the hole punch drain method. The filter internal check valve (Anti Drain Back Valve) prevents the filter from draining like you want it.
I just tear an oil sorbent sheet about six inches and put it under the filter base like a childs bib. Break it free (no punched hole) with a strap wrench then spin it loose by hand. As soon as the last thread comes free I flip it thread side up then into a bucket. You lose a couple tablespoons of oil onto the sheet but very little gets loose unless you dilly dally. From there I have a dirty oil funnel in the top of a waste jug. The filter gets flipped into the funnel to empty.
Stupid mistakes are not holding the jug and it falls over. Or punching a hole in the filter and having oil squirt out all over.
One lesson learned the hard way is to make sure the filter will turn BEFORE punching any holes in the filter. I once punched a hole to drain then the can ripped open when I put a filter wrench on it. Suddenly blood was gushing out of the slice in my glove.
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Old 03-29-2020, 04:46 PM   #5
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FYI, here's a couple of pictures of the filter installation on the port engine. The first picture is the filters and manifold from the top, on the port side. The oil supply to the manifold from the oil cooler is via the 90 deg fitting on the right side of the manifold. The second picture is the same manifold, from the bottom. The oil drain back to the oil cooler is via the black hose in the center of the manifold. The oil is supplied from, and returned to the engine oil cooler located on the lower port side of the block, below the water pump.

And unless the manifold that the filters screw into has integral check valve(s), I'm not familiar with any other check valves in an oil filtration system. Certainly not in the filters themselves.

But I've been wrong many, many times before!!!

Pete
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Old 03-29-2020, 05:54 PM   #6
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As a long time Cat 3208N owner, the oil filters are actually remotely located from the oil cooler on the lower port side of the engine. On my engine, the manifold for the filters was mounted in the same location as yours, but inverted so the filters were the bottom. Filter changes involved a plastic bag and an oilzorb,but most of the oil remained in the filter. On your arrangement, it seems oil would drain into the sump with the engine shut down. I would loosen one and see how much dribbles out. Most 3208s I have seen have the filters mounted on the bottom of the manifold. Flipping the mount should be pretty easy if you have the room.
Good luck
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Old 03-29-2020, 06:20 PM   #7
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If they do not drain down after shutdown, then I would remote mount them with the thread side up. I had 6V53s in a previous boat that had upside down oil filters on it. We put remote mount filters on them and it was so much nicer. We also went with a larger capacity filter because we had the room for them.
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Old 03-29-2020, 07:08 PM   #8
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High Wire: Thanks for your insight. You posted a response to my question, stating that:

"...The filter internal check valve (Anti Drain Back Valve) prevents the filter from draining like you want it."

I've been unsuccessful, despite querying CAT, one of CAT's dealers, and multiple forums in finding out if the CAT oil filter 1R-0734 does, indeed, have an internal anti-drain-back valve. Some automotive filters do, some do not, but nobody can give me a straight answer regarding the CAT filter I currently have aboard my boat.

Are you sure this CAT filter does, in fact, contain such a valve? Obviously, I can simply go aboard, unspin one of the stupid things, and find out for myself. Just being lazy and trying to prepare for the size mess I'm in for.

Regards,

Pete
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Old 03-29-2020, 11:35 PM   #9
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Not much experience with smaller cats, but the bigger engines either have filters that drain back, a drain plug in the housing or are mounted filter down.
If your setup is a problem, you might add a tee and valve in the oil line for draining the filters.
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Old 03-30-2020, 05:40 AM   #10
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"I've been unsuccessful, despite querying CAT, one of CAT's dealers, and multiple forums in finding out if the CAT oil filter 1R-0734 does, indeed, have an internal anti-drain-back valve. Some automotive filters do, some do not, but nobody can give me a straight answer regarding the CAT filter I currently have aboard my boat."
post#8


The simple solution is any auto supply that has a Fran oil filter interchange catalog.

Everything is in the listing , including if an anti drain back is installed.

Do some Creative Begging and you may get an old copy.
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Old 03-30-2020, 06:50 AM   #11
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Is that the normal orientation or did someone invert it? Most 3208 have filters with threaded end up, but my experience is with 3208T and TA, those came factory threaded end up.

Maybe someone inverted the housing to make room for something below???

That will make for a messy oil change.
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Old 03-30-2020, 07:43 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jungpeter View Post
High Wire: Thanks for your insight. You posted a response to my question, stating that:

"...The filter internal check valve (Anti Drain Back Valve) prevents the filter from draining like you want it."

I've been unsuccessful, despite querying CAT, one of CAT's dealers, and multiple forums in finding out if the CAT oil filter 1R-0734 does, indeed, have an internal anti-drain-back valve. Some automotive filters do, some do not, but nobody can give me a straight answer regarding the CAT filter I currently have aboard my boat.

Are you sure this CAT filter does, in fact, contain such a valve? Obviously, I can simply go aboard, unspin one of the stupid things, and find out for myself. Just being lazy and trying to prepare for the size mess I'm in for.

Regards,

Pete

No I am not sure about your Cat filter. My Perkins filters do. I would not trust any online source other than Cat.

You can test if they are full. Tap on it with a wrench, Full will be a dull thud. Empty will sound hollow like an empty soda can.
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Old 03-30-2020, 10:00 AM   #13
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1R-0734 has a Bypass relief valve. 138+/-14 KPa.

(I tried to screen print the drawing but it won't let me copy it here.)

Sidney
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Old 03-30-2020, 11:07 AM   #14
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I have 3208NAs too. The oil filters are mounted the right side up on the gear oil cooler on the rear of the engine. Just another option.
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Old 03-30-2020, 01:06 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidney View Post
1R-0734 has a Bypass relief valve. 138+/-14 KPa.

(I tried to screen print the drawing but it won't let me copy it here.)

Sidney
Hi Sidney. Thanks for your input. However, an oil bypass relief valve is different from an anti-drain-back valve. The relief valve is to allow the oil filter to pass oil, even if plugged. But it doesn't have anything to do with retaining oil in the housing when inverted.

Regards,

Pete
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Old 03-30-2020, 01:28 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
"I've been unsuccessful, despite querying CAT, one of CAT's dealers, and multiple forums in finding out if the CAT oil filter 1R-0734 does, indeed, have an internal anti-drain-back valve. Some automotive filters do, some do not, but nobody can give me a straight answer regarding the CAT filter I currently have aboard my boat."
post#8


The simple solution is any auto supply that has a Fran oil filter interchange catalog.

Everything is in the listing , including if an anti drain back is installed.

Do some Creative Begging and you may get an old copy.
Hi Fred. Yup, Fram interchange PN PH36A does NOT contain an anti-drain-back valve. But since I have CAT filters, that's not much help. One would HOPE the Fran and CAT parts are the same, but short of dissecting a CAT filter, or definitive word direct from CAT, I can't be sure. But thanks for the information. Little in the marine world is "simple".

Regards,

Pete
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Old 03-30-2020, 01:47 PM   #17
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I don't think the cat filters have anti-drain back valve. They do not need it if mounted threads-up.

Can you flip that mount over back to normal orientations?
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Old 03-31-2020, 07:29 AM   #18
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For folks with thread down filters a change over may not be very difficult.

Filter sizes are similar to autos and the hot rod folks have very nice , neat remote filter setups.

Happily not white boat priced, try google.
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Old 03-31-2020, 07:35 AM   #19
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Would this be the tell for those folks who have filterswith the threads down? Unscrew the filter a bit. If oil starts leaking, the filter has an anti- drainback valve.
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I don't think the cat filters have anti-drain back valve. They do not need it if mounted threads-up.

Can you flip that mount over back to normal orientations?
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Old 04-07-2020, 07:39 PM   #20
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Thought I'd post an update on this issue, just for grins. After much research, I determined that the CAT filters (1R-0734) on my 3208 CATs do NOT have anti-drain-back valves. Neither do the filter bases upon which they're mounted. Thus, the filters empty soon after shutdown. When I removed my upside-down filters for an oil change, very little oil remained in the filter housings, so cleanup was easy. And access is certainly improved in my Tolly 48 with the filters upside down.

A previous owner inverted the filter bases sometime in the past, although I'm not sure why. Clearance under the filters appears adequate, so with some effort, the bases and filters could be turned right-side up again (filter screw threads up). But I see little need to change the arrangement. Oil pressure builds within 2 seconds of startup, and the filters apparently do not need to fill before oil pressure is satisfactory, or they fill in a heartbeat.

Regards,

Pete
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