Cardude in Harvey bullseye

[Group9]

That was my assessment of FEMA after going through Katrina as a supervisor in another federal agency who had to interact with them. What FEMA has, is a lot of money. What FEMA doesn't have, is any expertise in dealing with emergencies or catastrophes.

If, during emergencies like hurricanes, they would just limit themselves to writing checks to fund the activities and efforts of the state and local agencies who do know what they are doing, and stay out of their way, FEMA would actually be quite useful in emergencies.

But, for some reason, they just can't accept that sensible and logical role.

 

[BandB]

Wifey B: You realize how wrong this whole thing is when you see Sea Tow going through the streets of Dickinson.

 

[sbu22]

Let's not forget the hundreds who spontaneously showed up with their own personal gear to pull people to safety. Now that's a flash mob! My favorite is the 5 ton military surplus wrecker, owned and manned by 3 Israeli Defense Force vets (yamalkas and all), operating effectively as a high water rescue vehicle.

 

[Bigsfish]

WifeyB

I noticed that Sea Tow shot, everyone who can help will. The American spirit!

 

[chriscritchett]

"Hurricane Katrina made landfall in the city of New Orleans on the morning of August 29, 2005..."



Interesting article, but incorrect first line. Katrina made landfall on the Mississippi coast with a surge over 20ft. Total destruction for miles inland. New Orleans had minor damage from the winds, and very little surge. It was the heavy rains that broke the levees in NO, but MS took the brunt of the storm. But little press, as we went to work and took care of ourselves and each other, rather than waiting for FEMA.

Not to be a jerk, but if we're making corrections: "The final death toll was at 1,836, primarily from Louisiana (1,577) and Mississippi (238)."
(From the internet; I wasn't there.) Perhaps the meaning of 'taking the brunt' should be clarified.

 

[BandB]

Wifey B: The purpose of my post linking to the New Orleans article wasn't accuracy of all the information but to show the long term impact. These areas will never be the same and many people won't return. The landscape changes. Lives change. Everyone living in south Texas will be impacted.

 

[sbu22]

Yeah, Chris, I wasn't going to rise to FoxtrotCharlie, but .....

Regarding NOLA, the Katrina event generated 5-10" of rain in 36 hours, depending on location. The surge was about 9' in NOLA (Lake Pontchartraine, in particular). I don't have the surge magnitude for the MRGO. The reason the levees failed with a 9' surge was, absolutely indistupatably, the failure of USACE to require contractors to conform to the Corps own design expert's criteria in constructing the levees.

Notwithstanding, the Mississippi coast took record surge (something like 24').

Precipitation had nothing to do with it. We routinely (well, occasionally) get 5-10" on an August afternoon.

And, I was there.

Now, back to the current issue.

 

[KneeDeep]

Just got pics and video from an owner on an adjacent dock. Unbelievably Betsy Lee appears to have it made it without any major damage!! Very sad that there was so much carnage around us. No idea who long it will take to begin the clean up, and could be weeks before power.

Amazing how the dock lines stretched - the aft springs were double 5/8 and tight when i left. We were also assuming the kayaks were gonzo, but they made it.

Cardude - glad Bijou was in FL. Your slip in the second picture caught a lot of debris...

We are heading down this week to secure everything, replace lines and check batteries. If all appears sound, anything additional i need to inspect before i think about running the generator for the battery charger?

 

[FoxtrotCharlie]

Very true re death toll LA vs MS. Sorry to bring up the comparison. Lets all keep the TX folks in our prayers. And lets all help how we can, if only sending a few boat $ their way.

 

[Group9]

Not to be a jerk, but if we're making corrections: "The final death toll was at 1,836, primarily from Louisiana (1,577) and Mississippi (238)."
(From the internet; I wasn't there.) Perhaps the meaning of 'taking the brunt' should be clarified.

I was there. Mostly in Mississippi, but in New Orleans some, too, as federal law enforcement. A large number of the deaths in Louisiana were homicides. The exact number is unknown because the coroner, after classifying a shocking number of the deaths as homicides, was instructed to just list cause of death as simply being caused by Hurricane Katrina, no matter what the forensic examination showed. And, many bodies were not recovered for weeks, making accurate cause of death determinations difficult anyway.

Going back and forth, the difference in the situation in New Orleans and Mississippi was stark, to say the least. And, the amount of storm each received had little to do with the difference. New Orleans is a rough town in the best of circumstances. I doubt the entire story of New Orleans and Katrina will ever be told as it would shatter too many illusions about how quickly our cities can become uncivilized in a crisis. The ones that have been told are bad enough.

I hope things go better in Texas.

 

[cardude01]

Just got pics and video from an owner on an adjacent dock. Unbelievably Betsy Lee appears to have it made it without any major damage!! Very sad that there was so much carnage around us. No idea who long it will take to begin the clean up, and could be weeks before power.



Amazing how the dock lines stretched - the aft springs were double 5/8 and tight when i left. We were also assuming the kayaks were gonzo, but they made it.



Cardude - glad Bijou was in FL. Your slip in the second picture caught a lot of debris...



We are heading down this week to secure everything, replace lines and check batteries. If all appears sound, anything additional i need to inspect before i think about running the generator for the battery charger?

Oh man, that's great news on Betsy Lee! I was wondering if you had left her at the dock. Did the roof make it or blow off?

I think I saw some pics of the dry stack buildings. They did not do well in the wind.

 

[BandB]

Oh man, that's great news on Betsy Lee! I was wondering if you had left her at the dock. Did the roof make it or blow off?

I think I saw some pics of the dry stack buildings. They did not do well in the wind.

That's an issue in many areas where the docks have a much better chance of survival than the dry stack facilities. Those set up outdoors and exposed completely are completely exposed and not built to any hurricane or storm standards. Then once hit it's like a game of Jenga as all the pieces tumble. Meanwhile many of the indoor facilities have been built to hurricane standards.

 

[Baker]

I hope things go better in Texas.

All things considered, things are going well. One thing we have a lot of in Texas is rednecks. Rednecks get things done. A lot of love out here on the streets. It doesn't matter what color, race, creed you are, of you need help, we will get you out. When is the last time you hit your prop on a stop sign??? When is the last time you ran into a house on your boat??? Have you ever wondered what a car looks like on your fishfinder??

In this day and age you always wonder about the human condition...with all the alleged hate out there. No hate here! It is a beautiful thing really. Makes me very proud of Houston...Texas...and just the decency of humanity. So many have traveled from out of state to help. Trust me....they have redneck in them...?.

Did a little volunteering yesterday and on standby at the ready with a Shallowsport today. We got a staggering amount of rain again last night and it is still raining it's ass off as I type this....on the south end of the area anyway. Wish us luck. Say a prayer. Donate to the cause! We will be ok!!!

 

[KneeDeep]

Oh man, that's great news on Betsy Lee! I was wondering if you had left her at the dock. Did the roof make it or blow off?

I think I saw some pics of the dry stack buildings. They did not do well in the wind.

Last 6 slips on E dock are the only parts of all 3 of the covered that still have any roof left. I think wet slips were better because of the protection of the retaining wall/berm on the north side. Since the surge was minimal we kind of stayed down in a hole. E dock sits in the center so we were even luckier.

From the pics it looks like a couple have sunk off D dock and B dock

 

[BandB]

I think we see over and over again that first response and best response comes from within and local. It only makes sense that as people can't get out, others can't get in to help to the degree you wish. 9/11 showed the tremendous strength and resolve of New Yorkers. This is showing it for those in South Texas. Without the response of those living there, we would be talking very large numbers of death over what we're already likely to see.

Now, the task for all the rest of us is not to forget. That's important on both a personal basis and a basis of support through government. Harvey doesn't end this week. Just as 9/11 lives forever in NYC and Katrina changed New Orleans forever, South Texas will never be the same. The individuals living there need our help and support as do the towns and cities looking to rebuild while at the same time looking for new solutions to prevent this level of tragedy recurring.

New Orleans now faces risk again and their situation isn't helped because of drainage pump failures.

I'm not sure everyone realizes either that a sizable percentage, perhaps even the majority, of flood damage to homes and contents in Houston will not be covered by insurance. Many areas were not in flood zones requiring flood insurance and it's been said that most of the people for whom it wasn't required didn't buy it. In the areas it was required, not sure how many failed to purchase it. Regular homeowners insurance does not cover flood damage.

Now, to those in South Texas, once this is over, demand better, don't accept anything short of improvement-improvement in the flood control and water management systems in Houston, improvement in building codes in Rockport and other coastal areas. Some seems obvious at this moment, but it all comes at a cost and can be very difficult. Think of a Rockport homeowner of a home that is valued at $200k. Construction prices will increase dramatically in the area due to demand. Rebuilding just what they had could easily cost $250k. To rebuild to Miami/Dade hurricane standards could cost over $300k.

To those living elsewhere, you will be asked to support those in need with charitable donations and the rebuilding with your tax dollars. That's all tough for many people throughout the country struggling themselves. Makes it all the more imperative that those of us who can assist, do so. Other cities will be challenged to accept and assist those displaced and can't do it alone. Dallas/Fort Worth is likely to get Texans immigrating from South Texas there, people without homes, without money, without jobs.

This is devastating. Don't lose sight of that as the television images fade. Families have been put through that which they never imagined. Right now they feel relief they have survived. The reality of it will hit them very powerfully as time passes.

 

[dhays]

New Orleans now faces risk again and their situation isn't helped because of drainage pump failures.



I'm not sure everyone realizes either that a sizable percentage, perhaps even the majority, of flood damage to homes and contents in Houston will not be covered by insurance. Many areas were not in flood zones requiring flood insurance and it's been said that most of the people for whom it wasn't required didn't buy it. In the areas it was required, not sure how many failed to purchase it. Regular homeowners insurance does not cover flood damage.

New Orleans faces risk because the dang city is below sea level.

My heart goes out to those affected by the flooding. To me, flooding seems to be so much more disheartening than other types of disasters such as earthquake or wind damage.

At the same time I have to ask, does it make any sense to rebuild homes and businesses in areas we KNOW will flood again? If you choose to live in an area that is dependent on dikes, dams and levees to keep you above water, then it is your responsibility to prepare for that eventuality. You can do that through capitol savings, Insurance, or by building up above any possible flood level. Counting on the federal government to fix things after the fact is not preparation.

 

[psneeld]

From some reading, there are still people in NJ stuck between upgraded building standards and the quagmire of beauracracy from Sandy.

 

[BandB]

From some reading, there are still people in NJ stuck between upgraded building standards and the quagmire of beauracracy from Sandy.

Yes, there are. They lost all they had and can't replace it. Some even had homes that weren't destroyed but needed major repairs and to do those repairs required bringing the entire home up to code, which they couldn't afford.

 

[BandB]

New Orleans faces risk because the dang city is below sea level.

My heart goes out to those affected by the flooding. To me, flooding seems to be so much more disheartening than other types of disasters such as earthquake or wind damage.

At the same time I have to ask, does it make any sense to rebuild homes and businesses in areas we KNOW will flood again? If you choose to live in an area that is dependent on dikes, dams and levees to keep you above water, then it is your responsibility to prepare for that eventuality. You can do that through capitol savings, Insurance, or by building up above any possible flood level. Counting on the federal government to fix things after the fact is not preparation.

Well, I debated in my head at the time whether New Orleans should have been rebuilt. I still don't know. However, if it was going to be then the levees should have been strengthened and other steps taken. The city itself can never fund what needs to be done. Also, keep in mind that some of the issues are Corps of Engineer responsibilities. They just announced another reservoir near Houston where they will have uncontrolled release of water. Now, I can't blame them as water levels exceeded the 500 year high.

I grew up in NC. The Catawba River has recreational lakes with flood control lakes between them. There are many areas on the flood control lakes that people are not allowed to build on. That received some major objections as suddenly people were being told that their waterfront lots were worth nothing and not usable.

I don't have the answers. I do know New Orleans couldn't do it on their own and I know now that Houston can't. You now have the 4th largest city in the country that just lost the majority of it's revenue. In Texas, local governments are dependent on two revenue sources, sales tax and property tax. This isn't a key time for collection of property taxes, but it will be in a month or so and payments will be down and certainly valuations will drop tremendously. Obviously sales tax collections will be way down. Meanwhile the demands on the city will increase.

That's what a strong city like Houston faces. I can only imagine some of the smaller towns. The first need is to get people to safety and help them recover. However, economically the local costs of rebuilding are far beyond their capabilities on their own. Should cities be in position to take care of themselves? I don't know any that are in the event of a natural disaster. From what I do know, South Florida's recovery and lessons learned from Andrew are probably the best example of an area recovering with minimal health. However, their destruction wasn't throughout the entire area, but specific to certain rather small areas.

We won't know all the challenges of South Texas for a while. I'm afraid too that we'll have some new issues in Louisiana to address too.

One thing that Houston has shocked me on and that is the water is still safe for drinking. I've never seen a situation like this without the water system being compromised.

 

[Ski in NC]

I have worked on recovering houses from flood. Usually the house is not a total loss at all. Rip out the damp sheetrock, insulation, kitchen cabinets, appliances, flooring. Get a dehumidifier in there and let it start sucking out the water. Some houses the wiring is mostly higher, so depending on water level much of it can be reused. A big plus in Houston is that their problem is fresh water, mine was sea water. Much easier to deal with fresh.

Go in with new stuff and house can be better than before.

In the three towns I have been in that suffered from bad hurricanes (Key West Georges and Wilma, Charleston Hugo, Wrightsville Beach Fran) as bad as things were in the aftermath, three years later you could barely tell anything happened.

People are pretty good at fixing stuff and building new stuff.

 

[O C Diver]

At the same time I have to ask, does it make any sense to rebuild homes and businesses in areas we KNOW will flood again? If you choose to live in an area that is dependent on dikes, dams and levees to keep you above water, then it is your responsibility to prepare for that eventuality. You can do that through capitol savings, Insurance, or by building up above any possible flood level. Counting on the federal government to fix things after the fact is not preparation.

I would like to see no federal flood insurance for new construction. Why are we continuing to reward bad building decisions? If the normal insurance market views it as too risky, why should the tax payer guarantee that high risk home?

Ted

 

[sbu22]

Originally Posted by dhays: At the same time I have to ask, does it make any sense to rebuild homes and businesses in areas we KNOW will flood again? If you choose to live in an area that is dependent on dikes, dams and levees to keep you above water, then it is your responsibility to prepare for that eventuality. You can do that through capitol savings, Insurance, or by building up above any possible flood level. Counting on the federal government to fix things after the fact is not preparation.

Yeah, but if you do so, you've just eliminated (off the top of my head) the Eastern Seaboard, the Gulf Coast, the Missouri and Mississippi Valleys from N. Dakota/Minnesota to NOLA, Suisun Bay to the Sierra foothills .....

And, of course, in the broader sense of "counting on the federal government", there's the issue of tornados in the Midwest, quakes in Cali (you know it's coming) and the Mississippi Valley, forest fires from FL to the West Coast,etc.

I believe one important piece of the puzzle is flood insurance for second homes and investment properties. I get the idea of having a last resort insuror for primary residences. I don't see the merit of subsidizing the insurance on McMansions (or vacation high rises) built on sand dunes.

 

[BandB]

Originally Posted by dhays: At the same time I have to ask, does it make any sense to rebuild homes and businesses in areas we KNOW will flood again? If you choose to live in an area that is dependent on dikes, dams and levees to keep you above water, then it is your responsibility to prepare for that eventuality. You can do that through capitol savings, Insurance, or by building up above any possible flood level. Counting on the federal government to fix things after the fact is not preparation.

Yeah, but if you do so, you've just eliminated (off the top of my head) the Eastern Seaboard, the Gulf Coast, the Missouri and Mississippi Valleys from N. Dakota/Minnesota to NOLA, Suisun Bay to the Sierra foothills .....

And, of course, in the broader sense of "counting on the federal government", there's the issue of tornados in the Midwest, quakes in Cali (you know it's coming) and the Mississippi Valley, forest fires from FL to the West Coast,etc.

I believe one important piece of the puzzle is flood insurance for second homes and investment properties. I get the idea of having a last resort insuror for primary residences. I don't see the merit of subsidizing the insurance on McMansions (or vacation high rises) built on sand dunes.

DHays comment was aimed at building homes below sea level. New Orleans is a unique situation as a city where most of the land is 1 to 2 ft below sea level.

I think flood coverage should be included as part of all homeowner policies. I've seen too many cases where people think their area is not subject to floods because they aren't required to have flood insurance. The problem though is would you have any insurers providing coverage and you wouldn't in large areas of the country. After Andrew, the only reason all South Florida homeowners insurance wasn't cancelled is that the insurance commissioner stepped in. He told the companies that if they did that, they'd no longer be allowed to sell auto insurance in the state.

There's not an easy fix to this because it's not something insurers want to be into. There's nothing worse though than to see someone's house destroyed over something that's not insured. There are still a lot of people who think that if they're insured for a hurricane then they are for a flood.

Now, as ski pointed out, the flood damaged homes are generally salvageable. It's expensive though and furniture generally isn't. Most people cannot afford without insurance to repair their flood damaged homes.

 

[Xsbank]

Terrible events - does it make sense to go there and volunteer? Who would we talk to first or should we just go? I have few committments here and I still have my health and a fairly red neck? What is really needed?

 

[dimer2]

XSbank, that is a huge and generous offer! In my humble opinion, the best thing you can do, is figure out how much it would cost you to come help and just donate that money.

Don't send it to an organization that uses 90% of the money in administration costs but consider JJ Watt's or similar, where they are putting up their own money and will ensure it goes to the right place.

You are awesome!!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ief-fund-to-2-million/?utm_term=.ef5ea9821219

 

[dhays]

I would like to see no federal flood insurance for new construction. Why are we continuing to reward bad building decisions? If the normal insurance market views it as too risky, why should the tax payer guarantee that high risk home?



Ted

I certainly don't understand all the issues, but my first reaction is that I agree completely. Let the states know that if they want federal funds to rebuild, they can't rebuild in areas that will flood in another 10, 50, or a 100 years. Sea levels are going to rise. Storms will get worse. Why simply rebuild only to have it destroyed again? Why insure something that you know will be eventually destroyed?

I have a friend in NJ that lost a beach house in Sandy. They elected to rebuild, but they put the house on 12' pilings, well above the storm surge they had during Sandy. If it happens again, they will lose power and water, and anything they have stored below the house will be destroyed, but the house will be fine.

 

[dhays]

XSbank, that is a huge and generous offer! In my humble opinion, the best thing you can do, is figure out how much it would cost you to come help and just donate that money.

XSbank asked a good question and I think dimer2 hit on the answer.

If I was to go to Houston to help, I would need food, water, and shelter. Those are generally the three things that are the hardest to come by in a situation like this (I am surprised as bandb that the water supply seems to have survived).

Giving money is the best option for most of us. There are all kinds of organizations that do a good job. I just saw yesterday that the American Optometric Association is using its emergency funds to help the members whose offices were flooded. It seems odd, but the sooner they can be back in operation the sooner they can start to serve their patient base who will need their services. I am sure other professional and trade organizations have similar programs.

 

[O C Diver]

I certainly don't understand all the issues, but my first reaction is that I agree completely. Let the states know that if they want federal funds to rebuild, they can't rebuild in areas that will flood in another 10, 50, or a 100 years. Sea levels are going to rise. Storms will get worse. Why simply rebuild only to have it destroyed again? Why insure something that you know will be eventually destroyed?

I have a friend in NJ that lost a beach house in Sandy. They elected to rebuild, but they put the house on 12' pilings, well above the storm surge they had during Sandy. If it happens again, they will lose power and water, and anything they have stored below the house will be destroyed, but the house will be fine.

Yes, they figured it out 40+ years ago on the Outer Banks of North Carolina. Everything residential is built on pilings or high ground. It's not hurricane proof, but flooding isn't an issue.

Ted

 

[Lou_tribal]

I just looked at windy and found this pretty impressive and interesting image:



L

 

[BandB]

Thank goodness it's residing a bit now, but may get some rain next week. There are some good funds and organizations to help but some scams already started I'm sure. Just like looting, already some.

It sounds huge to have 2.9 million meals on the way until you realize you have 6 to 8 million people.

I've received a little information third hand from Rockport. Texas Medical Services made it there to help a man in desperate need of his dialysis. There was one couple written about that they couldn't evacuate because they didn't have the money to do so. Their roof had major damage, although home still there, but they had nothing to put over it. I believe arrangements were made to get some plastic and tape like roofers use. Every community has different needs. Just saw a picture on tv of people with tents set up on their roofs. Don't know if they stayed or left.

The difficult challenges I think are little things, or things we think of as little. DHays mentioned getting optometrists back in business. I thought of Pharmacies as being critical as well as doctors. I bet there are hundreds stranded without their meds or running out. I know of one person who recently had a lung transplant and there are two important things. One is immunosuppressants to avoid rejection but also with a suppressed immune system to avoid exposures to things. I believe his wife was able to get him to a hospital to ride it out but not sure.

It's nice to see leaders like JJ Watt who step up quickly and get others involved. Great way to use their fame.