Cardude in Harvey bullseye

[BandB]

JJ Watt started with goal of $200k crowdfunding. Kept meeting number and raising goal. Now has raised $3.2 million and his new goal is $4 million.

 

[sbu22]

dhays - If you're in a "flood prone" area, any new construction requires compliance with a ream of FEMA requirements. Among these is requiring construction/major rebuild to be elevated at least to the Base Flood Elevation (BFE). This is a very site specific value that considers history, location with respect to tidal surge, levees, high water levels, etc., etc., etc. Your friend with the NJ beachouse probably put it on stilts if for no other reason than to obtain the building permit. Locals that don't conform to the FEMA requirements in their building permit process don't get flood insurance coverage.

 

[Ski in NC]

In my area of NC, I could not get a building permit unless first floor was above a certain elevation.

 

[tallswede]

Well, me and mine are OK. I live on Goose Creek In Baytown. It is most affected by bay level not runoff but just to the east of me (about 5 miles) is Cedar Bayou. Rain gauges at Cedar Bayou have all measured 48"+ with one measuring 51"+ for the last 3 days. I'll have to double check but I understand that is a world record. Last night, entire neighborhoods that have never flooded along the bayou got 7' (yes that is feet) of flooding within 5 hours. The entire area around Houston has been devastated. Most of the problem has been rain inland not storm surge or wind as in Ike. The people I have seen responding here in Baytown have been magnificent. Not waiting on any agencies to come help. Those agencies couldn't have gotten here any way with all the carnage in Houston. We saw so much junk and debris being swept down stream into the bay. Cargo containers, vehicles, garages etc. that boating once we do get back on our feet will be hazardous. Cruise ships from Galveston were diverted to New Orleans are intending to come back Thursday but I'll be surprised if they can do it because of the currents and debris flowing out the jetties. And those that do debark here may find their cars to be among the 500k plus vehicles that have been flooded. It's a mess and will take a long time to get over. We still don't know what the death count is and won't until the water recedes but I think it will be surprisingly low thank God. We have plenty of volunteers here but we can always use your support and prayers.

Kevin

 

[tallswede]

Oh, and by the way, That picture of Islander in my avatar is from earlier this year on Cedar Bayou. Right now, its a raging river instead of a quiet tidal bayou.

Kevin

 

[Xsbank]

Whoa! I am not enroute, I just made the suggestion! Thank you for the kudos but I don't deserve it. I agree with you guys, I would have to be fed and watered and I need somewhere to sleep so it makes far more sense to donate to Mr Watts' fund. He's over 4 million so far...

 

[BandB]

Watching the reporters and the people living there, it seems like this has been going on so very long, much longer than it has. Exhausting just following it, much less being there. Now people have to adjust from panic and urgent mode to a long term recovery mode.

One organization that can really use help, financial or persons, is the SPCA.

To me, the one part I don't know that I could handle is still to come too. That's seeing the dead pets and probably some dead people as well. Then there will be a lot of missing people, no one knowing about.

Don't know what the final death toll will be but it will be low for such a storm and that's just a tribute to the people. You see events of this nature, but far smaller, in other countries and huge loss of lives. Look at the lives lost in Haiti during Matthew.

 

[Capt. Jon]

I would like to see no federal flood insurance for new construction. Why are we continuing to reward bad building decisions? If the normal insurance market views it as too risky, why should the tax payer guarantee that high risk home?

Ted

Ted, I don't tend to disagree with this statement however let me give you an example of what happens down here in the Deep South. You build in an area that had never flooded (until Katrina (Camille was the previous high water standard) and then the Corp of Engineers comes, does a project and the area now becomes a flood zone. This happened in an area of east coastal Mississippi when the Tenn-Tom was built in the 80's due to a flood gate placement. So, are the people who built here are they now penalized because they built there long before flood waters were directed over them? Just a question that has a hard answer. In the long run I bet the people along some sections of Buffalo Bayou will want an answer to that question also.

 

[MurrayM]

How are the levees/reservoirs upstream of Houston doing?

 

[BandB]

How are the levees/reservoirs upstream of Houston doing?

Some are doing lousy. A couple of reservoirs to the west had to have water released as they were overflowing and flooding neighborhoods. That added to Buffalo Bayou. Lake Conroe is out of it's banks. They were releasing from the dam and evacuating. Conroe is around 40 miles north of Houston.

 

[Seevee]

..........

I think flood coverage should be included as part of all homeowner policies. I've seen too many cases where people think their area is not subject to floods because they aren't required to have flood insurance. ............

BandB

Absolutely not. There should be NO requirement to have insurance and NO forcing people to have flood insurance because that's the only product available.

Let the free market prevail and let folks decide what risk/benefit products are appropriate for them.

Requiring insurance often has a negative effect.

And one can easily argue that flood insurance is a very poor use of dollars. One would be better off if they put the premiums in a piggy bank.

 

[Seevee]

Yes, there are. They lost all they had and can't replace it. Some even had homes that weren't destroyed but needed major repairs and to do those repairs required bringing the entire home up to code, which they couldn't afford.

BandB,

Requiring the entire home being built up to code will have negative effects and a lot of people will end up patching things. Fortunately, that's not a requirement in most counties in FL. But if the contraction costs of IMPROVEMENTS exceed 50% of the home value, then one has to bring it up to code.

Fortunately the vast amount of repairs will be accomplished without forcing new code requirements, and people will again have a place to live.

With events like this, the best we can do is donate or volunteer if we're local to get people back on their feet. This disaster is probably a thing that will not happen again over a hundred years plus. Unfortunately, it's part of life and we must just get thru it and help others get thru it. We can prepare as best as we can, but can't rebuild the city to new code, that's just not gonna happen.

 

[Seevee]

New Orleans faces risk because the dang city is below sea level.

My heart goes out to those affected by the flooding. To me, flooding seems to be so much more disheartening than other types of disasters such as earthquake or wind damage.

At the same time I have to ask, does it make any sense to rebuild homes and businesses in areas we KNOW will flood again? If you choose to live in an area that is dependent on dikes, dams and levees to keep you above water, then it is your responsibility to prepare for that eventuality. You can do that through capitol savings, Insurance, or by building up above any possible flood level. Counting on the federal government to fix things after the fact is not preparation.

I could agree strongly on not rebuilding things below sea level.

 

[FF]

"Requiring the entire home being built up to code will have negative effects"

Remember the "code" is the bare minimum not a lofty goal.

To my mind the folks with the most at risk, your private insurance company, should write the codes to classify bldgs risks.

Then builders would be able to be rewarded ,charge more ,for really good storm proof construction that would pay folks to purchase because of lower insurance rates.

Federal flood insurance is a rotten idea , mostly used to allow buildings in a rotten location to obtain a bank loan.

 

[Art]

BandB,

Requiring the entire home being built up to code will have negative effects and a lot of people will end up patching things. Fortunately, that's not a requirement in most counties in FL. But if the contraction costs of IMPROVEMENTS exceed 50% of the home value, then one has to bring it up to code.

Fortunately the vast amount of repairs will be accomplished without forcing new code requirements, and people will again have a place to live.

With events like this, the best we can do is donate or volunteer if we're local to get people back on their feet. This disaster is probably a thing that will not happen again over a hundred years plus. Unfortunately, it's part of life and we must just get thru it and help others get thru it. We can prepare as best as we can, but can't rebuild the city to new code, that's just not gonna happen.

Seevee... Seems you do not understand the totality that is approaching regarding the global scope of climate change. As ocean waters warm, atmosphere increases its overall temperature, humidity continues to up-tick, trade winds alter their trajectories and oceanic currents sway their courses... well, unfortunatly... we ain't seen nothing yet!

 

[O C Diver]

Ted, I don't tend to disagree with this statement however let me give you an example of what happens down here in the Deep South. You build in an area that had never flooded (until Katrina (Camille was the previous high water standard) and then the Corp of Engineers comes, does a project and the area now becomes a flood zone. This happened in an area of east coastal Mississippi when the Tenn-Tom was built in the 80's due to a flood gate placement. So, are the people who built here are they now penalized because they built there long before flood waters were directed over them? Just a question that has a hard answer. In the long run I bet the people along some sections of Buffalo Bayou will want an answer to that question also.

I'm not interested in taking away federal flood insurance from those who have it or homes built before my proposed change. I'm interested in stopping new construction that needs to be federally insured against flooding. If the banks and insurance companies say it's too risky without a federal guarantee, then the USA tax payer doesn't need to be guaranteeing it.

Alternatively, I could see limiting flood insurance to $100,000 per house and contents. Some times the poor have limited choices. If you're rich and want to build a McMansion on a sand dune in a flood plane, well then you can afford to self insure.

Ted

 

[dhays]

Seevee... Seems you do not understand the totality that is approaching regarding the global scope of climate change. As ocean waters warm, atmosphere increases its overall temperature, humidity continues to up-tick, trade winds alter their trajectories and oceanic currents sway their courses... well, unfortunatly... we ain't seen nothing yet!

But Art.... "climate change" is just "fake news", a hoax thrust on us by the Chinese. Or maybe it was a hoax created by the "radical left"? I can't remember, let me check my twitter feed.

 

[ddalme]

A thousand years from now it will be global cooling! Everyone will be putting up snow barriers.

 

[Bigsfish]

Coming out of an ice age one would expect to have some warming. I know everyone gets their panties in a wad but things have to play out. But then I think government intervention should be minimized as most things they screw up: post office, congress, VA, taxes, ect come to mind.

 

[Bigsfish]

I should also add that I only buy liability insurance on my properties.

 

[Baker]

How are the levees/reservoirs upstream of Houston doing?

They are doing what they were designed to do. THe problem is that they were never designed to handle this sort of pressure. The Addicks Dam is the one with the "uncontrolled release". That means it is just wide open with no metered release. It is supposed to be that way until Sept. 20!!!! IOW, you will have to suffer the coverage of flooding for at least another 3 weeks. Hopefully they were overestimating that. I did hear this morning that there is a small "anomaly" with the damn. One of the gate structures is leaking and potentially compromising the damn. They are already evacuating the people that would be affected be a total breach. But it would be catastrophic for sure.

XSBank....good to hear you have a bit of redneck in you!!!! Thanks for the kind gesture!!!

 

[Delfin]

Coming out of an ice age one would expect to have some warming. I know everyone gets their panties in a wad but things have to play out. But then I think government intervention should be minimized as most things they screw up: post office, congress, VA, taxes, ect come to mind.

It seems that for some folks, climate never changed prior to the discovery of carbon as a tax revenue source. Others are aware of the fact that we have been in an inter-glacial period for 9,000 years where temperatures have varied +/- around 3.5 degrees C. Prior to that, the range was closer to 20 degrees C. It was warmer 1,000 years ago than today, colder 1,200 years ago than today, warmer 600 years ago than today. Following the end of the last little ice age around 1780, it has consistently warmed with an interesting and unpredicted hiatus for the last 20 years even though atmospheric CO2 levels have increased. Weather events like hurricane Harvey are just that - weather events. They happen and will happen again. Where I live, sometime around 1700 the amount of water flowing through the Skagit River (7th largest in the country) surged 10 fold from what a 100 year flood looks like. The valley I live in was essentially a lake for a couple of months. Presumably this event had little to do with Indian camp fires, and I suspect that hurricane Harvey has little to do with Indians (or anyone) driving SUVs.

Whatever its cause, you just have to cry at the devastation the folks in Texas are having to deal with. So sad.

 

[BandB]

BandB

Absolutely not. There should be NO requirement to have insurance and NO forcing people to have flood insurance because that's the only product available.

Let the free market prevail and let folks decide what risk/benefit products are appropriate for them.

Requiring insurance often has a negative effect.

And one can easily argue that flood insurance is a very poor use of dollars. One would be better off if they put the premiums in a piggy bank.

I didn't say a thing about requiring insurance. Just that homeowner's policies include flood coverage. Now most lenders will require insurance and most houses do have mortgages.

 

[Delfin]

I didn't say a thing about requiring insurance. Just that homeowner's policies include flood coverage. Now most lenders will require insurance and most houses do have mortgages.

Surprised at that. In Washington State, floods are always an exclusion, although water backing up through sewers is covered. I thought these exclusions are why they created the National Flood Insurance program, which policies are required here for any building in the flood plain. The insurance totally sucks, by the way, and is expensive for what you get. I used to have to buy it on acres of greenhouses, not because greenhouses can be much damaged by just flood water, but because any building in the flood plain had to carry it if you had a mortgage.

 

[BandB]

They are doing what they were designed to do. THe problem is that they were never designed to handle this sort of pressure. The Addicks Dam is the one with the "uncontrolled release". That means it is just wide open with no metered release. It is supposed to be that way until Sept. 20!!!! IOW, you will have to suffer the coverage of flooding for at least another 3 weeks. Hopefully they were overestimating that. I did hear this morning that there is a small "anomaly" with the damn. One of the gate structures is leaking and potentially compromising the damn. They are already evacuating the people that would be affected be a total breach. But it would be catastrophic for sure.

XSBank....good to hear you have a bit of redneck in you!!!! Thanks for the kind gesture!!!

The Houston flood control systems were designed to a certain standard of rainfall and flooding. It has been shown in the last few years that more is needed. However, they were definitely never designed for the amount of rain received in this storm nor should they have been. Normally you'd design up to record levels. You might then allow for an additional amount, perhaps 10%. You don't normally design to 50% above the all time record. We talk all the time about 100 year plans but not about 500 years. It's like building design now to handle 150 mph sustained wind. That's Hurricane Andrew type design. If we suddenly had 180 mph sustained winds, then all bets are off.

Now that this has happened, Houston will need to go back to the drawing board and beef up in some areas as they now have a new record to look at.

 

[BandB]

Hopefully Congress is able to avoid politics and move quickly. After Andrew, they passed a bill in 10 days. After Katrina, it took them 6 days. After Sandy, it took 66 days.

Also, note that the Flood Insurance program is scheduled to end on September 30.

 

[Seevee]

I didn't say a thing about requiring insurance. Just that homeowner's policies include flood coverage. Now most lenders will require insurance and most houses do have mortgages.

BandB,

Sounds fair, but if the policy includes flood and there's no choice, then one is stuck with it.

And, requirements for insurance can be governmental and lenders. I'm totally against govt requirements, but the lenders have the right to require it, but feel it should only be on the building, not the land (however, it doesn't affect me).

I could argue options for the homeowner that wants reasonable coverage without going bizerk.

 

[Seevee]

I should also add that I only buy liability insurance on my properties.

Bigsfish,

That's probably the best use of your money.... and I could argue to eliminate liability in some cases to... however, it's usually dirt cheap. The vast majority of liability claims on property are people just not being responsible.

 

[Seevee]

I'm not interested in taking away federal flood insurance from those who have it or homes built before my proposed change. I'm interested in stopping new construction that needs to be federally insured against flooding. If the banks and insurance companies say it's too risky without a federal guarantee, then the USA tax payer doesn't need to be guaranteeing it.

Alternatively, I could see limiting flood insurance to $100,000 per house and contents. Some times the poor have limited choices. If you're rich and want to build a McMansion on a sand dune in a flood plane, well then you can afford to self insure.

Ted

Ted,
Totally agree... get the feds out of here, they usually screw it up and costs us more.

 

[Seevee]

Seevee... Seems you do not understand the totality that is approaching regarding the global scope of climate change. As ocean waters warm, atmosphere increases its overall temperature, humidity continues to up-tick, trade winds alter their trajectories and oceanic currents sway their courses... well, unfortunately... we ain't seen nothing yet!

Art,

Good point, and climate change will happen. So what can we do? Lots of things, but we don't need to rebuild all the house nor put absurd rules in place to make housing prohibitive (and it's heading that way).

I'd rather see folks have the option of making reasonable repairs and additions to improve their property than to do nothing and let it go downhill, and that's not a small problem.

And, yes, over time we will have to deal with climate changes, and just water rising could be a major issue. Probably not in our lifetime, but will happen... unless the next ice age starts up somehow.